711 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I dunno, I like to think that there's at least one bit of future thinking involved, like what it would be like to not have stinkin' reapers on the horizon.

Oh, and not having to worry about possibly getting accosted by banshee justicars, or having your job stolen by cheap husk labor.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 22 décembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, yeah, you can agree with the Catalyst and be pro-Red..

Not really. It's equivalent to the same thing in the dark energy ending, if you chose to ignore the Reaper solution and "wait it out", hoping to find a solution to dark energy on your own. The same principle is here, even though it's about a Tech Singularity now. You get rid of the Reaper solution and place your bets on solving whatever may pop up in the future. Taking things a day at a time, in a sense. Destroy upholds and values living in the present. Instead of pre-planning, future thinking, or wondering about inevitabilities. And denying inevitability is disagreeing with the Catalyst.

I agree. It is disagreeing with the reapers, and thus disagreeing with the catalyst.

[KaiserShep]

That video pleases me. Why listen to the enemy blather on, when you can kill it instead.

[Ieldra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I find a number of things quite laughable. Liara is a Prothean Expert! She's been around all things Prothean. She's got a PhD in archaeology from the University of Serrice specializing in Prothean stuff. She dreams about Protheans. Do you think she has never seen anything depicting Prothean in the ruins before? I would think she has. But she hasn't, just like we're supposed to believe that there are no longer any pictures anywhere in the galactic databases of what quarians look like without their suits. Or ask stupid questions like Can Asari really can reproduce with their own race.

And we're also supposed to believe that Liara is so stupid that Ashley Williams can see that the statues in the Temple of Athame are Prothean and Liara just cannot see it. Who was the writer who wrote Liara for this game? I don't want to see any "Oh but her religious faith blah blah blah s***." She's a researcher. A scientist. She's not stupid. They made her into a moron for that scene and several others. It was bad enough having Kai Leng show up. At least they could have done some decent writing.

Vendetta was programmed not to reveal itself until the Crucible was completed or nearly completed. I think Vendetta said this.

But even building the Crucible was a feat of space magic. I kept wondering where those secret manufacturing plants were located. The first thing the reapers did was take out all of the manufacturing infrastructure. If they could build something that massive that quickly, damn, they could have built thousands of dreadnoughts over the past three years without blinking an eye. And talk about budget? Where did that money come from?

Like Kaiser said, Lore in the MEU is an inconvenient nuisance for the player, but can change on a whim by the writers, and the funny thing is that few players will even notice. Like the Ardat-Yakshi thing. There were other inconsistencies as well - Garrus said the Turians could recognize the "indoctrinated soldiers" (aka Marauders) and they appeared no different to them. Yet we saw husk like creatures. The PTSD Asari recognized who the Banshee was, so apparently it didn't look different, but we and Falare saw those things. I guess the Banshee in question had a name tag over it like Morinth.

I know... pick pick pick pick pick. I'll stop now.

Liara's apparent ignorance has one reason: drama over consistency. It's one of ME3's main failings, apparent in so many situations that it's hard to find a story-relevant scene without at least some of it.

The cavalier attitude to lore is another main failing. Worldbuilding and story will only suffer if writers refuse to be bound what they've written in the past of the same story and world.

[Nerevar-as]

Don´t let coherence and continuity get in the way of cheap unnecessary dramatic tension.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StreetMagic wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, yeah, you can agree with the Catalyst and be pro-Red..

Not really. It's equivalent to the same thing in the dark energy ending, if you chose to ignore the Reaper solution and "wait it out", hoping to find a solution to dark energy on your own. The same principle is here, even though it's about a Tech Singularity now. You get rid of the Reaper solution and place your bets on solving whatever may pop up in the future. Taking things a day at a time, in a sense. Destroy upholds and values living in the present. Instead of pre-planning, future thinking, or wondering about inevitabilities. And denying inevitability is disagreeing with the Catalyst.

Javik is proof against that.

He's a staunch Destroyer, and yet he agrees with the Catalyst about inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic -- even brokering peace on Rannoch does not convince him otherwise. Only difference is their preferred solution. Javik thinks the solution is to simply destroy AI every time they spring up. On the main issue, though, he agrees with him.

[Reorte]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

There were other inconsistencies as well - Garrus said the Turians could recognize the "indoctrinated soldiers" (aka Marauders) and they appeared no different to them. Yet we saw husk like creatures. The PTSD Asari recognized who the Banshee was, so apparently it didn't look different, but we and Falare saw those things. I guess the Banshee in question had a name tag over it like Morinth.

I agree with most of your points (and it's really quite sad that someone could create such a great universe then apparently not care about these things), but on this point there's a difference between indoctrinated and huskified. Marauders and banshees are the turian and asari equivalent of husks. We've seen plain indoctrinated humans and asari (Rana Thanoptis) too.

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

Javik is a nutcase who thinks people like Victus need to be buried in the sand and have animals eat his eyes. I take everything he says with a grain of salt. If there's a way to go to an extreme on ANY subject, he'll take it.

Hey, I don't remember sanity being one of the prerequisites for being counted in this? 

[Daemul]

StreetMagic wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, yeah, you can agree with the Catalyst and be pro-Red..

Not really. It's equivalent to the same thing in the dark energy ending, if you chose to ignore the Reaper solution and "wait it out", hoping to find a solution to dark energy on your own. The same principle is here, even though it's about a Tech Singularity now. You get rid of the Reaper solution and place your bets on solving whatever may pop up in the future. Taking things a day at a time, in a sense. Destroy upholds and values living in the present. Instead of pre-planning, future thinking, or wondering about inevitabilities. And denying inevitability is disagreeing with the Catalyst.

Javik is proof against that.

He's a staunch Destroyer, and yet he agrees with the Catalyst about inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic -- even brokering peace on Rannoch does not convince him otherwise. Only difference is their preferred solution. Javik thinks the solution is to simply destroy AI every time they spring up. On the main issue, though, he agrees with him.

Javik is a nutcase who thinks people like Victus need to be buried in the sand and have animals eat his eyes. I take everything he says with a grain of salt. If there's a way to go to an extreme on ANY subject, he'll take it.

What does that have to do with anything? The Protheans shared Javik's view. Very early on they discovered the dangers of machine intelligence when it rebelled against them, which is why they aimed to unite all organic life under one empire so that Synthetics wouldn't surpass them and destroy all organic life if they ever rebelled against them again.

This worked for a time, for instance in the Metacon war against the Zha'til where the Protheans were "turning the tide". Until the Reapers arrived, and the Protheans realised that the machines had surpassed them long ago, in ways that they could not even imagine. I don't see what Javiks method of execution has to do with any of this.

Modifié par Daemul, 22 décembre 2013 - 10:48 .

[Darks1d3]

KaiserShep wrote...

I dunno, I like to think that there's at least one bit of future thinking involved, like what it would be like to not have stinkin' reapers on the horizon.

Oh, and not having to worry about possibly getting accosted by banshee justicars, or having your job stolen by cheap husk labor.

Heh,

They'll be ideal recruits for the service industry

www.youtube.com/watch

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Javik is a nutcase who thinks people like Victus need to be buried in the sand and have animals eat his eyes. I take everything he says with a grain of salt. If there's a way to go to an extreme on ANY subject, he'll take it.

Hey, I don't remember sanity being one of the prerequisites for being counted in this? 

Because then we couldn't include the Catalyst...

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

There isn't a need for an image of dead Geth in the Destroy ending slides because they are noticeably absent. By noticeably I mean the Geth differ from races like the Drell and Volus as the robots were a much larger part of the story and all three games. The fact that they never show up in either of version of the Rannoch Destroy slides means something must be keeping them from showing up, it's not like they were off buying milk when the photographer showed up. The most likely cause given the nature of the Destroy option means they are dead.

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

You feel the way you do about it. That's fine. You can interpret the lack of a geth slide in Destroy as meaning they magically dropped dead for no reason all you want. But you still have no rational basis for this belief. That's all I'm saying. One could say you have faith that they all died. The only question is what killed them? There is nothing mentioned to foreshadow their supposed deaths and nothing shown to even conclude they died. At least with the volus you have the "technology you rely on" being effected remark. But then again, as I've said time and time again, no noticeable effect occurred to any non-reaper nanite based technology so why would I assume it singled out only the Volus suits to the exclusion of all other conventional non-reapertech?

And what is this "nature of the Destroy option"?

[KaiserShep]

The big problem with comparing evidence (or lack thereof) of the geth's death or survival to that of the volus, or the hanar and elcor for that matter, is that they're weighed very differently in significance in the story's plot. That is to say, they have practically none at all. Though I'm not 100% certain, I am pretty sure that you can go through the entire trilogy without ever speaking to a single one of these races. The only "joke" race that we are ever obligated to speak to in is the vorcha, and I'm pretty sure it's only one that Shepard talks to briefly during Mordin's recruitment mission. That, coupled with the fact that none of their fates are integral to the major plot points/Shepard's choices, ensures that they have no place in the epilogue.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 06:31 .

[KaiserShep]

Pretty much. From the ground up, they were designed to be joke characters that could never have any hope of being major players in the plot. I mean, just look at the way each of them talk. They each have a particular quirk about the way they speak that make them difficult to take seriously. That said, I enjoy them all immensely. The MEU would just not be the same without them.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 06:34 .

[The Twilight God]

Hazegurl wrote...

No I'm not. I accept the possibility that the red wave targeted both code and hardware, perhaps in different ways.

How would it target code? What exactly would it physically be looking for in terms of a code? You're not making any sense. Geth, before and after upgrade, did not exist when the Crucible was designed. But you think it can specifically target something it doesn't even know exists? Again, you aren't making any sense. The Crucible either targets ALL TECHNOLOGY indiscriminately or something specific. There can be nothing specific about a Geth program that can be housed in anything.

Hazegurl wrote...

In destroy, the Reaper's hardware(bodies) were still intact. They simply ceased to function and fell. I'm sure the same thing happened to EDI and the Geth since they accepted/made of some form of Reaper technology. This includes the code. 

We don't actually see what happens to the Reaper's bodies. The Dreadnaughts are just ships, not the actual reaper. The Reaper itself is the "terminator" (did you forget the end of ME2?) on the inside that is hooked up to and interfaced with the dreadnaught. If the husk disintegration was any indication, the "terminators" (I.e. the actual reapers) disintegrated, leaving the dreadnaughts behind intact. Disintegration demonstrates molecular breakdown. Since it did not affect the humans the targeted matter must have been the reaper nanite synthetic component which took the organic matter with it. In other words, the very process of synthesis in which both husks and "terminators" are a product is what is targeted.

Now how much do you want to bet you're not going to debunk anything I said, but rather just ignore it and keep speaking in ignorance?

Hazegurl wrote...

Prove that the Crucible did not attack the code. Nothing you wrote proves anything as you are using irl and current technology standards. The crucible was built by advanced civilizations for million or perhaps billions of years, each adding something from their time (a time that is still far more advance than ours) to its design. The last being the Protheans who believed in destroying all AIs.

First, I don't have to prove anything. YOU have to prove it did. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim. As it stands there is no reason to believe the Crucible did anything to the Geth in particular.

Second, it's a physical  impossibility. You can't target a code with an indiscriminate blast. You can target a particular hardware, but not programming script that isn't hardware specific. A Geth in a Qurian suit is "physically" different from a Geth in a starship. That which you would target would be two completely different things. They become two different beings on a physical level. Geth can be a nigh infinite amount of completely different tech. And as I've already mentioned, the Crucible would not be set to target Geth as it was designed before there ever were any Geth. And the Kid never says anything about it targeting AIs in general so no matter how you go about it you have nothing.

What you're saying is equivalent to say the blast can target asari love for chocolate chip ice cream. So if a human, drell or salarian experience these asari perceptions they would die too. What are perceptions biologically? Electrons in brain/nervous issue? So now we have to say the asari have special electrons different from human, Salarian or Drell electrons. How does it ignore a particular specie's electrons and focus on just one specie's when all matter shares the same electrons? You can target asari brain matter with a disease for that molecular configuration, but not the very building blocks of nature itself (not if you want to only hit asari). Same with code. It's just electrons. You can't single out one electron out of the infinite amount of others with a indiscriminate blast. It's physically impossible.

Now if you want to chalk it up to magic. And I mean actual supernatural hocus pocus magic in the mass effect universe. Be my guest. However, you're still left with the question: What makes you think it would affect the Geth when no mention of any AI specific effects are ever presented? The entire basis of the dead geth speculation is the lack of a Geth slide. That's it. You can chose to believe that a lack of evidence is evidence(), but that is not a rational conclusion and is pure speculation.

Hazegurl wrote...

Like I said above, the Crucible itself was created thousands of times during  Reaper invasions by people who had already created AIs and had unresolved issues with them. It doesn't take much to believe that one of those cycles added something to target all AI while leaving non AI machines active.  The Geth most likely made it worse by uploading a Reaper code into their systems. There is nothing the Geth had that didn't already exist in other cycles.

Nice speculation about what if species soandso did this or that.

The fact remains that no AI specific results were ever foreshadowed during the Crucible creation or by the Kid. You have no basis to assume it targets AIs. You're literally pulling that assertion out of your behind. And I really don't know why people are going through all these mental gymnastics to come to a conclusion that isn't mentioned or even directly hinted at in the game. We are never shown anything geth related in Destroy. It's that simple. It's a mystery in Destroy. You have your thoughts on the fate of the Geth. I have mine. Can you accept that?

Hazegurl wrote...

I also want to add that Saren possessed a grafted Geth arm and it didn't take much for Sovereign to control him completely with his upgrades. It was pretty much proven back in ME1 that Geth hardware can be affected by Reaper tech, even remotely.

And yet, the Geth fought with organics against the reapers without being controlled... and the reaper apparently couldn't control Legion due to the upgrade.

First of all, Saren was indoctrinated. Sovereign's control had nothing to do with an arm in and of itself. If the arm was the problem Saren's dead body would have remained lifeless on the ground with a hapless arm flailing about under Soveriegn's control. It had to do with what was PHYSICALLY hardwired into his brain (and whole body I guess) emitting "indoctrination frequencies".

[The Twilight God]

JasonShepard wrote...

I find the idea of a weapon that can target code... difficult for my Willing Suspension of Disbelief to handle. It's equivalent, in my mind, to a fire in a library that only burns certain words.

The weapon would have to read every bit of code in the galaxy, check to see whether it is based on Reaper code, and only then destroy the code. This is regardless of the hardware that the code exists upon.

It's the 'read every bit of code in the galaxy' bit of that process that bugs me. That's on a similar level to 'edit every bit of DNA in the galaxy'... which I suppose the Crucible canonically can do, but that also breaks my Willing Suspension of Disbelief so... *shrugs*

For Destroy, I prefer to think of it as a blast wave, akin to an EMP, that destroys all code in the galaxy irrespective of who wrote it. Which fits better, considering that the Catalyst says nothing about the Crucible targeting Reaper code and does talk about it targeting all synthetics. Well, it fits better for me at least.

Yes, ALL synthetics. (i.e. ALL TECHNOLGY). Does that happen?

There is absolutely nothing in the game to make you think it would target any code. Clearly, everything still works so it clearly didn't indiscriminately blast all tech. Further the Kid defines "synthetics" as "technology you rely on". The Kid, who everyone holds up as infallible and incapable of lying, states explicitly what the Crucible will do and it does not say anything about affecting all AIs. It says it will effect all technology.

As far as Synthesis, that seems to be synthetic molecules attaching to organic molecules. It has nothing to do with changing DNA in the sense of rewriting it. It's the same principle as the creation of husks. Artificial latches on the organic to strength it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

With great sadness, I will miss the Vol clan. They brought us joy.

Reminiscing, Commander Shepard spoke to Niftu Cal during Samara's recruitment mission.

Badassfully, The Biotic God tried to toss Wasea about like a rag doll.

[KaiserShep]

"Feasting on her biotic-rich blood will be the last step of my ascension to godhood!"

Best line ever lol

[The Twilight God]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Yes, just like the Rannoch wasteland slide can be traced back to Destroy + the quarians dying over Rannoch.

Yeah, it shows dead Quarians.

As opposed to dead Geth floating in space. You know, seeing as they live on stations and all.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Control doesn't have that slide at all. It shows the geth alive.

This slide could easily be recylced in the Red epilogue. It wasn't, though. And I daresay it's obvious why.

And they could have shown a slide with dead Geth. Like the one with dead Krogan. But they didn't and I dare say it's obvious why. See what I did there?

Speculation is speculation. You don't know so you made up a death scenario.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I understand your position. I just don't agree with it. But I see no point in arguing this.

If you think the epilogue allows for you to believe the geth are still alive post-Destroy, and really do, power to you.

I, however, have a harder time ignoring the elephant in the room.

You mean the lack of an elephant? Let's just ignore the elephant where Bioware purposely retconned out the anti-AI effect dialog for, in your view, no reason at all. Again, there is no reason to believe they died post EC. And as there is no basis to believe they died the default assumption is that they are alive. Just like my default assumption is the volus are alive and the effect on "technology you rely on" didn't break their suits (as it didn't break anything else).

Your entire premise revolves around ME3 being it. If ME3 was the end of mass effect and the series would never continue into the future it still would be ambiguous, but it would be meaninglessly ambiguous as there wouldn't be a point maintaining the controversy. If the point is to carry over pre-EC sentiment and allow people to deceive themselves into assuming the Geth still died (despite the dialog being removed in the EC) then I understand. They want green and blue to remain viable in people's minds. Making it clear that the Geth are OK would negate green/blue viability as a popular choice. The only reason anyone even considers them is because originally the Geth died in Destroy (or at least the Kid claimed they would). Why do you think it was the only ending with a big negative? From your point of view blue and green must be objectively better, right? What is even the point of red? From the metagamming perspective you'd have to be stupid to pick red if blue and green are as impossibly utopic as we are to believe. 

HYR 2.0 wrote...

This idea is not unique to the Reapers in the least. Synthetics v. Organics has been a topic/theme in this series for a long while now, and the belief that this synthetics inevitably create conflict with organics is first voiced by a Destroyer (Javik).

So, yeah, you can agree with the Catalyst and be pro-Red.

Reaper logic involves the union of flesh and steal and/or the dominion over flesh and steel; In its imperfect form, the destruction of organic and absorption of synthetic civilizations. I use the term "logic" loosely. Javik logic involves the destruction of all steel and the end of steel manufacture. Javik logic is more old-school Leviathan than Reaper. Javik logic is further incompatible in that his desired goal is considered impossible by the Reaper logic. As far as Reaper logic is concerned synthetics are an inevitability. The two are mutually exclusive.

The Kid does not endorse Destroy. It explicitly states it is in direct opposition to its stated goals. Those goals being to prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life (by killing the organics before the younger synthetics can kill them.. *cough*). Destroy does not solve its galactic social studies problem. If you believe in what it says, its Reaper Logic, you cannot chose Destroy as it just resets things to a pre-reaper condition. Leaving organics to create newer AIs that will eventually turn on them and destroy them before the Reapers (who are synthetic themselves) can. *cough*

[The Twilight God]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Liara's apparent ignorance has one reason: drama over consistency. It's one of ME3's main failings, apparent in so many situations that it's hard to find a story-relevant scene without at least some of it.

The cavalier attitude to lore is another main failing. Worldbuilding and story will only suffer if writers refuse to be bound what they've written in the past of the same story and world.

I thought she was in denial. She knew intellectually, but didn't want to accept it out of species pride and arrogance.

[AlanC9]

Good lord. A TTG post I agree with.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:22 .