711 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.[/quote]

The obvious difference is that the Volus don't mysteriously disappear in only one ending.
[/quote]

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

You feel the way you do about it. That's fine. You can interpret the lack of a geth slide in Destroy as meaning they magically dropped dead for no reason all you want. But you still have no rational basis for this belief. That's all I'm saying. One could say you have faith that they all died. The only question is what killed them? There is nothing mentioned to foreshadow their supposed deaths and nothing shown to even conclude they died. At least with the volus you have the "technology you rely on" being effected remark. But then again, as I've said time and time again, no noticeable effect occurred to any non-reaper nanite based technology so why would I assume it singled out only the Volus suits to the exclusion of all other conventional non-reapertech?

And what is this "nature of the Destroy option"?

I get what you are saying, but I feel you don't. You keep saying all this stuff about how people 'feel' this but don't have 'rational basis', yet you exclude yourself from this statement. This is why people don't agree with you, you offer as evidence your own opinions. For example, where did you get this idea of the red wave targeting 'Reaper nanite based technology'? The husks have those but there is no evidence that the Reapers themselves have them, is this a 'feel' you have or is there some actual proof? You also continuously state that "technology you rely on" bit, but ignore the part where the Catalyst states, "Others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All Synthetics will be targeted." which is somewhat ironic because you also fail to recognize that the "technology you rely on" thing, taken in context of the entire conversation, means the Mass Relays.

The nature of the destroy option has to do with the metaphysical solution to the Synthetic vs Organic conflict each choice represents. Since you seemed to have missed the point of my last statement about the Geth actually playing a significant role in a major arc in the entire trilogy, while the Volus do not, and what that means when they don't show up in the epilogue (hint: the other major arcs have a chance to show up, except the Geth) I will repeat it here. The fact that the Geth do not show up in the Destroy epilogue is much more significant than the Drell or the Volus not showing up in the epilogue (try to imagine how different the game would be if the Geth never existed, now imagine how different the game would be if the Volus never existed).

[The Twilight God]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.[/quote]

The obvious difference is that the Volus don't mysteriously disappear in only one ending.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yeah they disappear in all of them so they die no matter what. Right?

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Twilight God wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

The obvious difference is that the Volus don't mysteriously disappear in only one ending.

Yeah they disappear in all of them so they die no matter what. Right?

No, they just don't show up, because they weren't important to the overall story; thus they didn't have their arc, or lack of arc, reflected in an ending. Geth, however, were important to the overall story, and that is reflected on in each ending.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[KaiserShep]

This is clearly never going to go anywhere, because this basically comes down to the fact that we don't get to see the geth keel over in a cut scene, or a slide showing a pile of inert platforms. However uneven the comparison to the volus may be is obviously never going to be considered.

The insistence that the geth survived destroy is no less a feeling than the idea that they were destroyed. It's basically Schrödinger's geth. They're alive, and they're dead at the same time, but given their significance to the plot and the fact that the epilogue is clearly designed to illustrate the culmination of Shepard's major decisions, it's easier to lean toward the latter.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

This is clearly never going to go anywhere, because this basically comes down to the fact that we don't get to see the geth keel over in a cut scene, or a slide showing a pile of inert platforms. However uneven the comparison to the volus may be is obviously never going to be considered.

The insistence that the geth survived destroy is no less a feeling than the idea that they were destroyed. It's basically Schrödinger's geth. They're alive, and they're dead at the same time, but given their significance to the plot and the fact that the epilogue is clearly designed to illustrate the culmination of Shepard's major decisions, it's easier to lean toward the latter.

I'm sick right now and not getting my exercise. Need to get my heart rate up somehow.

[KaiserShep]

Nothing like arguing on the internet to keep the old metabolism going.

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I get what you are saying, but I feel you don't. You keep saying all this stuff about how people 'feel' this but don't have 'rational basis', yet you exclude yourself from this statement. This is why people don't agree with you, you offer as evidence your own opinions.

I can't include myself because I don't need evidence of anything. The burden of proof is yours. You are the one making the assertion the Geth die.

There is simply no reason to presume the Geth died. It's that simple. So by default one would figure they were still alive. I don't need to say anything other than that. This discussion and all these points I make are just icing on the cake.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

For example, where did you get this idea of the red wave targeting 'Reaper nanite based technology'? The husks have those but there is no evidence that the Reapers themselves have them, is this a 'feel' you have or is there some actual proof?

 
Suicide mission in ME2. It says it all. EDI explains how Reapers are made.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

You also continuously state that "technology you rely on" bit, but ignore the part where the Catalyst states, "Others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All Synthetics will be targeted." which is somewhat ironic because you also fail to recognize that the "technology you rely on" thing, taken in context of the entire conversation, means the Mass Relays.

Yes, and who are these "others"? Or should I ask you, how do you jump to the conclusion that "others" refer to the Geth and Geth alone? 

It said all synthetics will be targeted. Shepard asks the Kid what exactly will happen and it answers him. It explains exactly what it means by "synthetics" (even in low EMS where it explicitly states everything will be destroyed it uses the term synthetic to encompass any artificial tech and point out that Shepard will definitely die due to his synthetics). Now tell me what in that answer says anything about the Geth or AIs in general being destroyed? It's a rhetorical question because I already know it says no such thing in high EMS. And technology you rely on does not refer to just relays. No such context exists. You never know the relays will even explode until they explode. It refers to, quite literally, technology you rely on (I.e. all technology). As it does not make this statement for Control which also sees relays explode. Your contrived context is reaching. In fact, it actually points out the relays specifically for destruction in low EMS, but not in high EMS. So again, you're reaching too far. 

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The nature of the destroy option has to do with the metaphysical solution to the Synthetic vs Organic conflict each choice represents. Since you seemed to have missed the point of my last statement about the Geth actually playing a significant role in a major arc in the entire trilogy, while the Volus do not, and what that means when they don't show up in the epilogue (hint: the other major arcs have a chance to show up, except the Geth) I will repeat it here. The fact that the Geth do not show up in the Destroy epilogue is much more significant than the Drell or the Volus not showing up in the epilogue (try to imagine how different the game would be if the Geth never existed, now imagine how different the game would be if the Volus never existed).

What does any of that have to do with the fate of the Geth? You're basically saying that a lack of evidence is evidence. That simply will not fly. You can choose to believe whatever you like, but you still have no evidence for that belief. Your making an uninformed assumption. You're speculating.

Destroy has nothing to do with the Kid's galactic social studies experiment. It is in direct opposition to the Reaper's stated goals. It spits in the face of the Kid's solution.

Red = Reset to pre-reaper times (Chaos)
Blue = Ultimately the continuation of the Cycle; reset to early Reaper times (Orderly Chaos?)
Refuse = Current reaper times continue.
Green = The Final Solution; the end of the reaper Cycles (Order)

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

The obvious difference is that the Volus don't mysteriously disappear in only one ending.

Yeah they disappear in all of them so they die no matter what. Right?

No, they just don't show up,[...]

 
Right. Just like the Geth. It's left ambiguous.

To assume anything else about them is just speculation without merit.

[KaiserShep]

In the post linked in your signature, this particular snippet caught my eye:

Going back to the subject of the epilogue narration, I think a mention of the Geth's destruction would be warranted. Hackett says nothing about any such loss.

Out of curiosity, just how much does Hackett's speech vary? Like, if the quarians are dead, does he address them? Presumably the loss of any one of the major races in the MEU would be treated with equal importance, especially if they actually get a slide showing that they're gone.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 09:40 .

[Hazegurl]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

How would it target code? What exactly would it physically be looking for in terms of a code? You're not making any sense.[/quote]
 
Once again. You're comparing technology from 2183 to 2013.




[quote]Geth, before and after upgrade, did not exist when the Crucible was designed. [/quote]

Explain what the Geth has that you believe did not exist 50,000+ years ago? Every piece of tech in MEU is built on the tech of the previous cycles. Even the Geth built their dreadnought from scraps. The only common denominator here is AI and Reaper tech. Hm, how odd that both the Geth and EDI contained both while everything else that works at the end does not.




[quote]We don't actually see what happens to the Reaper's bodies.[/quote]
 
Yes we do. They stop functioning. Go play ME1 again. "Sovereign is not a ship it's a living Reaper!"

ME2: that was a human reaper being built. The same as all the rest just in human form instead of cuttle fish form.




[quote]Now how much do you want to bet you're not going to debunk anything I said, but rather just ignore it and keep speaking in ignorance?[/quote]
 
Ahem...

The Human-Reaper was an incomplete reaper[/b] being constructed by the Collectors. Under the orders of Harbinger,

EDI suggested that the Collectors were 'facilitating Reaper reproduction' by constructing a new Reaper[/b], 

EDI also speculated that every Reaper is built to resemble the race used to create it and that the Reapers had unsuccessfully attempted to construct a Reaper from Prothean raw material.

http://masseffect.wi...ki/Human-Reaper

But I guess you'll now claim that EDI is speaking ignorant gibberish that makes no sense.
 




[quote]First, I don't have to prove anything. YOU have to prove it did. The burden of proof is on you.[/quote]

Meaning you can't. 
 



[quote]You're the one making the claim.[/quote]

Actually I didn't. Here is my post: "No I'm not. I accept the possibility that the red wave targeted both code and hardware, perhaps in different ways." I never claim to know how like you do. I simply stated what I have seen in-game vs what I think happened. You are the one claiming that there is no way X happened. Yet you show nothing to back up your claim other than what you know of 2013 technology, denial of ending slides, calling the Catalyst a liar (something I agree with actually but it's speculation), and misinformation of in game information.

At the end of the day you know nothing about the Geth nor how the Reaper code changed their system. Neither do I, as I can only speculate based on the pics I posted which does show a drastic change. You on the other hand speculate based on nothing.  




[quote]The entire basis of the dead geth speculation is the lack of a Geth slide. That's it. You can chose to believe that a lack of evidence is evidence(), but that is not a rational conclusion and is pure speculation.[/quote]

It's still better than nothing, which is what you have.

[quote]Nice speculation about what if species soandso did this or that

The fact remains that no AI specific results were ever foreshadowed during the Crucible creation or by the Kid.[/quote]
 
Thanks!

As much as I hate that starbastard he does mention that destroy will target all synthetics and the Geth's "muscle" are synthetic material.

So what do I have so far:

EDI and Geth have some form of Reaper tech and not just the code uploaded on Rannoch. The Geth were getting upgrades from the Reapers to fight the Quarians in ME3. Let the Heretics Live? That's more Geth with Reaper upgrades since ME1. We know this because this was told to us by Legion.

Starbrat does make the claim that all synthetics will be targeted. Geth are made of Synthetic material and a heck of a lot more of it than Shepard 

Leigon tells us how different the Geth will be after the Reaper code, thus letting us know that whatever past info we had on them is now null and void. 

We have an abandoned Rannoch in Destory, never mind the fact that every slide from other planets show the inhabitants living there and/or returning home.

What do you have:

Wrong info on the construction of the reapers

Wrong info on what the Reapers are

Wrong info on the Human Reaper

Tech knowledge from 170 years in the past.

Pre Reaper code info on the Geth

"Lack of evidence equals the truth" form of logic. Try presenting that one in a courtroom. lol! 




[quote]You have your thoughts on the fate of the Geth. I have mine. Can you accept that?[/quote]

I'm not the one getting angry here, you are.  Seems to me as though you can't stop unless someone tells you you're right. All I did was speculate and provide pics and disagreed with you.  




[quote]And yet, the Geth fought with organics against the reapers without being controlled... and the reaper apparently couldn't control Legion due to the upgrade.[/quote]
 
Why control willing followers??




[quote]First of all, Saren was indoctrinated. Sovereign's control had nothing to do with an arm in and of itself. If the arm was the problem Saren's dead body would have remained lifeless on the ground with a hapless arm flailing about under Soveriegn's control. It had to do with what was PHYSICALLY hardwired into his brain (and whole body I guess) emitting "indoctrination frequencies". [/quote]

I never said the arm was the reason he was controlled. I said that the arm (a piece of Geth Hardware) was easily controlled by Sovereign. Remember, Saren was getting Reaper tech upgrades. We don't know if that Geth arm was one of the upgrades or something Saren had grafted before he became upgraded. But we do know that every part of Saren's body, including that Geth hardware was controlled by a Reaper. Which is evidence that Geth hardware is affected by Reaper upgrades.

Anyway, we gotta agree to disagree. I love the Geth too and I am all for a person coming up with their own story conclusions. Heck I don't even see DLCs as canon unless I played it thus making it a part of my Shep's story but I won't tell someone that what we were given in the vanilla game didn't happen, instead I use MEHEM when I want the Geth to live and the reapers dead, So I always have the Geth alive at the end of my story. But I won't demand that Bioware make the Geth live if ME4 is a sequel and I picked destroy.  I accept the sacrifice I made to kill the Reapers.  

Modifié par Hazegurl, 23 décembre 2013 - 10:09 .

[KaiserShep]

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

For example, where did you get this idea of the red wave targeting 'Reaper nanite based technology'? The husks have those but there is no evidence that the Reapers themselves have them, is this a 'feel' you have or is there some actual proof?

 
Suicide mission in ME2. It says it all. EDI explains how Reapers are made.

What line or lines specifically led you to establish this connection? I've gone through the entire diaogue tree, and EDI has no hard data about the actual process by which the reapers are constructed. She even says flatly that she is speculating based on limited data. There's no connection to be made between her explanation of the human reaper and how the destroy wave actually works that I can see. Anything regarding reaper code, or EDI's reaper-derived components, is strictly a fan-based theory, since there's never any real confirmation from either the game itself or any of the folks from BioWare.

Now, there is one instance where we get a hint about the reapers possibly having nanites of some sort in their construction, and that's if we listen to the logs on the derelict reaper.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Daemul]

Man this thread is fun, I haven't seen someone so vehemently deny that the Geth died in destroy for a long time now, it brings me back to the good old pre-EC days. Carry on guys, I'll just be here with my popcorn.

[Daemul]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think it's a possibility at least. Nothing worth an extensive conversation though. I mean, a lot of things are possible. You never know when the floor gets taken out from under you, when it comes to Mass Effect. Anyone who tries to rest on actual "facts" is probably deceiving themselves more than Twilight God.

True, especially in a universe where the writers ignore their own lore, anything can happen then. Please Montreal, be different, in single player at least, in multiplayer you can do what you want, but in single player keep the damn lore and don't go for what's "cool" or for "emotions".

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I get what you are saying, but I feel you don't. You keep saying all this stuff about how people 'feel' this but don't have 'rational basis', yet you exclude yourself from this statement. This is why people don't agree with you, you offer as evidence your own opinions.

I can't include myself because I don't need evidence of anything. The burden of proof is yours. You are the one making the assertion the Geth die.

There is simply no reason to presume the Geth died. It's that simple. So by default one would figure they were still alive. I don't need to say anything other than that. This discussion and all these points I make are just icing on the cake.

I didn't assert it, the Catalyst did. You are saying the Catalyst is wrong.

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

For example, where did you get this idea of the red wave targeting 'Reaper nanite based technology'? The husks have those but there is no evidence that the Reapers themselves have them, is this a 'feel' you have or is there some actual proof?

 
Suicide mission in ME2. It says it all. EDI explains how Reapers are made.

She states that the construction methods are unknown, the only thing she says definitively about their nature is that they are, "Sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material." Everything else is mostly speculation on EDI's part. The closest reference to nanites is 'little swarms of robots' (which is said by Chakwas) which I'm pretty sure is a reference to the Seeker Swarms, which are hardly near a nanoscale.

Nothing is said about red waves.

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

You also continuously state that "technology you rely on" bit, but ignore the part where the Catalyst states, "Others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All Synthetics will be targeted." which is somewhat ironic because you also fail to recognize that the "technology you rely on" thing, taken in context of the entire conversation, means the Mass Relays.

Yes, and who are these "others"? Or should I ask you, how do you jump to the conclusion that "others" refer to the Geth and Geth alone?

It said all synthetics will be targeted. Shepard asks the Kid what exactly will happen and it answers him. It explains exactly what it means by "synthetics" (even in low EMS where it explicitly states everything will be destroyed it uses the term synthetic to encompass any artificial tech and point out that Shepard will definitely die due to his synthetics). Now tell me what in that answer says anything about the Geth or AIs in general being destroyed? It's a rhetorical question because I already know it says no such thing in high EMS. And technology you rely on does not refer to just relays. No such context exists. You never know the relays will even explode until they explode. It refers to, quite literally, technology you rely on (I.e. all technology). As it does not make this statement for Control which also sees relays explode. Your contrived context is reaching. In fact, it actually points out the relays specifically for destruction in low EMS, but not in high EMS. So again, you're reaching too far.

The Catalyst said the Geth would be targeted. I put
up the entire
line the Catalyst says. The Geth are Synthetics, the Catalyst just
finished a very large presentation in which it told us all about
'Synthetics' (understood in context to be AI, given that
'synthetics',according to the Catalyst, can evolve and have self
determination).

When asked by Shepard what exactly the Crucible released in this way will do, the Catalyst includes in his responce the addition that 'technology' will also be also be affected, it is not defining the term Synthetic, 'Synthetics' and 'technology' are not synonymous in the Catalyst conversation.

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The nature of the destroy option has to do with the metaphysical solution to the Synthetic vs Organic conflict each choice represents. Since you seemed to have missed the point of my last statement about the Geth actually playing a significant role in a major arc in the entire trilogy, while the Volus do not, and what that means when they don't show up in the epilogue (hint: the other major arcs have a chance to show up, except the Geth) I will repeat it here. The fact that the Geth do not show up in the Destroy epilogue is much more significant than the Drell or the Volus not showing up in the epilogue (try to imagine how different the game would be if the Geth never existed, now imagine how different the game would be if the Volus never existed).

What does any of that have to do with the fate of the Geth? You're basically saying that a lack of evidence is evidence. That simply will not fly. You can choose to believe whatever you like, but you still have no evidence for that belief. Your making an uninformed assumption. You're speculating.

You would say a story is more than just it's literal parts right? That stories contain things like symbolism, connotations, imagery, etc? There things have meaning in a story, and Mass Effect 3 is a story. These elements are important. They are especially important in the ME3 ending where the literal parts are weak. The epilogue slides aren't just important in their literal depictions, they also have literary importance. That's why when the Geth don't show up it does have meaning.

Destroy has nothing to do with the Kid's galactic social studies experiment. It is in direct opposition to the Reaper's stated goals. It spits in the face of the Kid's solution.

Red = Reset to pre-reaper times (Chaos)
Blue = Ultimately the continuation of the Cycle; reset to early Reaper times (Orderly Chaos?)
Refuse = Current reaper times continue.
Green = The Final Solution; the end of the reaper Cycles (Order)

Destroy is in opposition to the Catalyst's old solution; however, Shepard is choosing a new solution because the old one doesn't work anymore. Each of these new solutions do have thematic undercurrents and represent a metaphysical solution to the Organic vs Synthetic in addition to a literal one. Mass Effect is a story, where the literary elements have meaning, things like themes and authorial intent are important (auhthorial intent is very important, even though you don't seem to care much for it). When you couple those with the entire context of the Catalyst conversation and what it says about Destory, it all amounts equals dead Geth and a dead EDI. Most of us would rather they didn't die in Destroy but the Catalyst is pretty clear that they will be destroyed.

Now I know you are going to start playing semantic gymnastics again and I'm certainly interested on what you're going to say next, it certainly is unpredictable. If you want the Geth alive that's fine, but don't pretend it's anything more than head-canon.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 23 décembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[KaiserShep]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

You would say a story is more than just it's literal parts right? That stories contain things like symbolism, connotations, imagery, etc? There things have meaning in a story, and Mass Effect 3 is a story. These elements are important. They are especially important in the ME3 ending where the literal parts are weak. The epilogue slides aren't just important in their literal depictions, they also have literary importance. That's why when the Geth don't show up it does have meaning.

On the subject of the slides, could you imagine how ridiculous the ending narration would sound if Hackett actually addressed each individual slide, as if this was some guided tour of the fate of the galaxy?

And here, we have a ravaged, abandoned Tuchanka, marking the end of the krogan race. Please note the decayed remains of a krogan in the foreground.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

Oh yeah, good point. Come to think of it, there were no volus in the epilogue, either.

So the volus probably all died in Destroy as well.

Nice... . That's legitimately worse than losing the geth.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 23 décembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[KaiserShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Right. Just like the Volus. The Kid did say "technology you rely" would be affected.... so the Volus die in all three endings when it "effected" their suits. Sorry, but you don't get to cherry pick which missing race denotes death and which is simply left a mystery.

Oh yeah, good point. Come to think of it, there were no volus in the epilogue, either.

So the volus probably all died in Destroy as well.

Nice... . That's legitimately worse than losing the geth.

"Bah! I will wreak a just revenge upon his people!" ~Niftu Cal

StreetMagic wrote...
If you put it that way, they should have got Ben Stein to narrate it.

And during the breath scene.

"Shepard? Shepard? Shepard? Shepard?" 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[The Diesel117]

EDI was killed by the Destroy choice. so its logical to assume that the Geth were also destroyed. watch when they are having shepards memorial service aboard the Normandy, EDI's name is on the wall of the fallen. she was safely aboard the normandy (in my play through) and even told joker they had to leave shepard behind. so there's no way she died in any other way unless you want to argue that EDI and the Geth were not effected the same way by the destroy choice.

[TheConstantOne]

Mr Massakka wrote...

1. I don't trust the faulty AI, creator and master of the Reapers, to guide Shepard in his decision. Agreeing to any idea of it to essentially spare the Reapers seems like a bad choice. And I am not even saying it's deliberately trying to trick Shepard: even if it's presenting these solutions with honesty and the will to protect as many as possible, it's still a malfunctioning AI we are talking about. After all, it has believed that the harvesting of everyone would be the best way to safe everyone. I wouldn't trust another "solution" of that thing.

2. Any other option than destroy would mean they get to walk among the current civilizations and that's incredibly dangerous no matter how you choose: in control you have slaves that are technologically far more advanced than its' slavers, even to the point that they could crush their slavers if it weren't for their shackles. That's just crying to backfire at some point. Synthesis with those who are "each a nation" and are famous for mind-controlling is even worse.

3. No matter how you twist it, Synthesis is preventing free thinking by forcing eternal life, peace and understanding on everyone in the galaxy.
Imagine it: someone from the Andromeda galaxy is coming over at some point and they are greeted by nothing but cultists with glowing green eyes who tell you the story of how they ended a war by melting their consciousness with their god-like enemies and now life in a perfect world. It's abhorrent and wrong.

4. **** the Reapers. We don't need their influence.


I'm not destroying them solely for the sake of it, for some heroic ideal or because I am "supposed to". I destroy them because in my eyes they are a danger to the current civilizations otherwise.

I'm not exactly sure where "everyone is forced into eternal peace and understanding" comes from.  Sure, the synthesis epilogue leans pretty strongly into a "utopian" scheme but I never took the ending to actually be a utopia.  That is impossible.  Technically, all of the endings have some measure of "we will work together for a new future and won't talk about any possible problems" angle.

Secondly, about the whole "genetic mutilation" argument: it is true everyone is given the ability to augment against their will but I don't recall anyone saying that everyone *must* embrace their new synthetic side.  Some organics may choose to do absolutely nothing with their new potential and just live as they were.  Some would become more synthetic than organic and live very much a different existence than before.  Most would probably explore the new possibilities but not tend to either side too strongly.  I'd guess more people would augment slowly at first but then more readily as the tech is evolved and gets to be more understood.  But at the end of this: you still have people just as prone to violent, corrupt, or selfish intent as before.

So I always saw the choice at the ME 3 as between: 
1) destroying our enemies at the cost of an entire race
2) obtaining a forced peace through repurposing the Reaper fleet
3) give everyone the opportunity to choose new possibilities *if they want* but you still have to modify everyone to at least give them these opportunities

I don't like dictatorships (essentially what number 2 could easily become) and I see number 1 to both cost more and promise less than number 3.  In 1, an entire race dies to destroy Reapers and preserve society.  In 3, everyone is modified sure...but they don't have to embrace this change at all if they don't want to.  And society is still preserved as it is but is now given many more possibilities for growth.  You still have what the Reapers, of course... but they are no longer compelled to harvest life as their function has been satisfied.  They are now as free as anything else.  Whether that is good or not merits an entirely different discussion.

[d-boy15]

Geth not destroyed in destroy ending is like you said synthesis is not forced.

You denying the truth...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Secondly, about the whole "genetic mutilation" argument: it is true everyone is given the ability to augment against their will but I don't recall anyone saying that everyone *must* embrace their new synthetic side.  Some organics may choose to do absolutely nothing with their new potential and just live as they were.  Some would become more synthetic than organic and live very much a different existence than before.  Most would probably explore the new possibilities but not tend to either side too strongly.  I'd guess more people would augment slowly at first but then more readily as the tech is evolved and gets to be more understood.  But at the end of this: you still have people just as prone to violent, corrupt, or selfish intent as before.

Look... the moment you transform eveyone against their will is the moment you take away their freedom already.
It's not the same thing as forced peoples to use DRM or iPhone, it's their body and it's with them for the rest of
their life.

And again, if synthesis ending peoples still corrupt or selfish as you said then it's solve nothing.

Modifié par d-boy15, 24 décembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[AlanC9]

d-boy15 wrote...

And again, if synthesis ending peoples still corrupt or selfish as you said then it's solve nothing.

Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.