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[KaiserShep]

All those races that live behind dormant mass relays that were unaffected by the wave are in for a surprise when they finally activate theirs and join the rest of the galactic community...and reapers.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.

Personally, I'm not convinced the "problem" it is supposed to solve exists in the first place.

The introduced-at-the-eleventh-hour "Inevitable" organic vs synthetic conflict stroke "chaos", that is.

Is the problem the Catalyst introduces and was created to solve (bearing it mind it was created by a species which essentially dominated the entire galaxy and wanted to continue that domination indefinately) really our problem?  Or are the giant, merciless space cuttlefish blowing seven shades out of every living thing in sight our problem?

If Catalyst's "problem" isn't our problem, is it's "ideal solution" really our "ideal solutuion"?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Is the problem the Catalyst introduces and was created to solve (bearing it mind it was created by a species which essentially dominated the entire galaxy and wanted to continue that domination indefinately) really our problem?  Or are the giant, merciless space cuttlefish blowing seven shades out of every living thing in sight our problem?

They are one-in-the-same. The Catalyst is (and, by extension, the Reapers are) an embodiment of the synthetic threat that has surpassed organics in power (until the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics). The Catalyst proves that the threat of an all-powerful AI's creation is indeed possible, because he himself is one, and was created. 

In literary terms, this is called an allegory.

[eyezonlyii]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Is the problem the Catalyst introduces and was created to solve (bearing it mind it was created by a species which essentially dominated the entire galaxy and wanted to continue that domination indefinately) really our problem?  Or are the giant, merciless space cuttlefish blowing seven shades out of every living thing in sight our problem?

They are one-in-the-same. The Catalyst is (and, by extension, the Reapers are) an embodiment of the synthetic threat that has surpassed organics in power (until the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics). The Catalyst proves that the threat of an all-powerful AI's creation is indeed possible, because he himself is one, and was created. 

In literary terms, this is called an allegory.

Unfortunately, the solution could have boiled down to leaving a sticky note on the Citadel:

Organics, do not create an AI 

-Love, Cati

PS
I'm out in dark space with my friends. Be back in 50k. Oh, there's Prothean in the fridge. 

or Just leave the Reaper fleet in space and destroy any rampant AI's that come about. And if you have to feel punitive, wipe 99% of the creating population a la the Quarians.

[d-boy15]

AlanC9 wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

And again, if synthesis ending peoples still corrupt or selfish as you said then it's solve nothing.

Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.

It's supposed to solve the organic vs. synthetic problem, if organnic still full of violance then the all out war
between both side is possible. Plus now with full emotional synthetic, the chance is likely increased.

 

[TheConstantOne]

d-boy15 wrote...

Geth not destroyed in destroy ending is like you said synthesis is not forced.

You denying the truth...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Secondly, about the whole "genetic mutilation" argument: it is true everyone is given the ability to augment against their will but I don't recall anyone saying that everyone *must* embrace their new synthetic side.  Some organics may choose to do absolutely nothing with their new potential and just live as they were.  Some would become more synthetic than organic and live very much a different existence than before.  Most would probably explore the new possibilities but not tend to either side too strongly.  I'd guess more people would augment slowly at first but then more readily as the tech is evolved and gets to be more understood.  But at the end of this: you still have people just as prone to violent, corrupt, or selfish intent as before.

Look... the moment you transform eveyone against their will is the moment you take away their freedom already.
It's not the same thing as forced peoples to use DRM or iPhone, it's their body and it's with them for the rest of
their life.

And again, if synthesis ending peoples still corrupt or selfish as you said then it's solve nothing.

As I said, the modification may be against what some people would want, but they need not exploit the new technology if they are against it.  Nothing in the synthesis ending suggests that everyone *must* use the nanites but that the nanites allow for more opportunities that did not exist before.  Considering that you need do nothing at all if you don't want to, I'd imagine that the violation of freedom entailed by synthesis is surely better than killing off an entire species.

So again: a cost between the lives of billions or forcing a choice on the galaxy that needs not be pursued further if the individual doesn't want it.  It seems clear to me which is the least negative.  Sacrifices in a war of this magnitude are expected but we should still try to lose as little as possible, yes?

And you are wrong: synthesis is meant to ensure that synthetics could never become insurmountably superior to organics because now we have the potential to upgrade in as many varied respects as synthetics do, without being limited by the pace of biological evolution.  Corruption, violence, crime...all of these will still exist.  Also, as you can choose how you want to/don't want to upgrade and since the biological "hardware" of individuals is all still different, diversity is not only maintained, it is increased. 

Seeing as many people will exploit the new nanites in some way (as the tech gets developed, the new options will be exploited more and more just as with any new tech) this synthetic-organics problem is indeed solved.  And yes, it is solved even if some individuals opt out because the success of synthesis does not depend on the behavior of random individuals but on the collective whole.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

eyezonlyii wrote...

Unfortunately, the solution could have boiled down to leaving a sticky note on the Citadel:

Organics, do not create an AI 

-Love, Cati

This can never happen.

Someone will always see the benefit of creating one, for this reason or that, and take their chances.

The Citadel banned creating AI, yet they still exist in the MEU. Rules were meant to be broken.

or Just leave the Reaper fleet in space and destroy any rampant AI's that come about.

The Catalyst needs to preserve synthetic life, too.

And if you have to feel punitive, wipe 99% of the creating population a la the Quarians.

That didn't stop the remaining 1% from perpetrating more war.

*edit*

more to the point, though, the Catalyst's role in-stoery is to embody the problem, not be the problem solver.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.

Personally, I'm not convinced the "problem" it is supposed to solve exists in the first place.

Sure. Unless there's a sequel where, say, Destroy is canon and it turns out the Catalyst really was right and we're facing a synthetic apocalypse, there's no particular reason to think that it's a real problem. Why can't the bad guy just be wrong? Bio's done that before. Come to think of it, they started that way; Sarevok's BG1 plan is based on bad premises.

My point was just that even on its face, Synthesis isn't about solving every problem. Nor is it shown to do so.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:31 .

[TheConstantOne]

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.

Personally, I'm not convinced the "problem" it is supposed to solve exists in the first place.

Sure. Unless there's a sequel where, say, Destroy is canon and it turns out the Catalyst really was right and we're facing a synthetic apocalypse, there's no particular reason to think that it's a real problem. Why can't the bad guy just be wrong? Bio's done that before. Come to think of it, they started that way; Sarevok's BG1 plan is based on bad premises.

My point was just that even on its face, Synthesis isn't about solving every problem. Nor is it shown to do so.

Indeed.  I assumed that the problem he refers to is the inevitable inferiority of organics to synthetics since we cannot evolve as quickly.  This problem could potentially go far beyond any temporary peace with the geth.  So the Catalyst could have a point.  However, his dialogue seems to reflect that no peace could *ever* be reached which is (depending on player choice) not evidenced with the geth's current alliance with organics. 

The root of this paradox is (as has been mentioned many times before) that the writing behind the Catalyst was absolutely horrible.  That was always my issue with the endings.  I didn't mind the choices.  There are sufficient pros and cons about each to get some good debate going and you can relate them to the theme of the game.  But their presentation via Catalyst and execution was just...so horribly done.  The Leviathan DLC gave more reason as to the Catalyst's existence after the fact but still falls woefully short of justifying what is happening

[Eryri]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Is the problem the Catalyst introduces and was created to solve (bearing it mind it was created by a species which essentially dominated the entire galaxy and wanted to continue that domination indefinately) really our problem?  Or are the giant, merciless space cuttlefish blowing seven shades out of every living thing in sight our problem?

They are one-in-the-same. The Catalyst is (and, by extension, the Reapers are) an embodiment of the synthetic threat that has surpassed organics in power (until the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics). The Catalyst proves that the threat of an all-powerful AI's creation is indeed possible, because he himself is one, and was created. 

In literary terms, this is called an allegory.

Wouldn't that be an example of irony, rather than allegory? In order for the Catalyst / Reapers to be an allegory, they would have to be representative of a broad idea or concept that exists beyond the confines of this fictional work. Since sentient AI does not yet exist, and nor does conflict between organic and synthetic life, then I'm not sure that there is anything in real life of which the catalyst can be an allegory?

To refer to your earlier point that the Catalyst justifies its existance and actions by proving that runaway synthetics can exist, then (and forgive me if this doesn't make much sense as it's late on Christmas Eve and various forms of alcohol have been consumed) doesn't that argument go right back to square one if you think it through?

The Catalyst was created to stop Organic life engineering its own destruction by creating synthetic life that might surpass it. However, now that "the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics", organic life has proven that it can surpass synthetic life, and is therefore powerful enough to destroy itself, even without creating synthetic intermediaries. Suppose the Krogan design their own version of the Crucible, tuned to destroy anything that happens to have Turian DNA, or vice versa? If the crucible can selectively destroy synthetic life on the basis of whether or not it detects "Reaper Code" then selectively destroying a particular organic species is not that much more of a stretch. What if the Yahg, once they acheive technological parity with the rest of the galaxy, decide to build a crucible that targets everyone else?

If so, then the Catalyst's job isn't complete. From its perspective, nothing has really changed. It was made because organics kept creating machines that could destroy them. But now, they've made a machine powerful enough to potentially destroy everything. Even by accident rather than malice. Suppose synthesis had misfired and shredded everyone's DNA instead of augmenting it?

Organics would still need to be protected from themselves. In synthesis or control, the Reapers or the Shepalyst may still find that harvesting organic races before they reach the point of being able to build a Crucible is the best or only solution, or as far as their obsolete mandate to preserve a few slaves for their almost extinct masters is concerned, anyway.

Modifié par Eryri, 24 décembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
They are one-in-the-same. The Catalyst is (and, by extension, the Reapers are) an embodiment of the synthetic threat that has surpassed organics in power (until the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics). The Catalyst proves that the threat of an all-powerful AI's creation is indeed possible, because he himself is one, and was created. 

In literary terms, this is called an allegory.

False.  That's just one, single, narrow-minded (and by no means proven) interpretation.  The Catalyst's conversation can just as easily be summarized as a red herring, a self-fulfilling prophecy and an example of fundamentally and irrevocably flawed logic.

And so forth, and so on.  Essentially, you're presenting OPINION as TRUTH, in the hope people will buy into your own interpretation of the facts at hand.

Which is all entirely beside the pointI was making anyway - your comment proves that the threat is possible, it doesn't prove that it is inevitable.

AlanC9 wrote...
Sure. Unless there's a sequel where, say, Destroy is canon and it turns out the Catalyst really was right and we're facing a synthetic apocalypse, there's no particular reason to think that it's a real problem. Why can't the bad guy just be wrong? Bio's done that before. Come to think of it, they started that way; Sarevok's BG1 plan is based on bad premises.

My point was just that even on its face, Synthesis isn't about solving every problem. Nor is it shown to do so.

And if we want to relate it to the Mass Effect Universe, so is Saren's, and TIM's, so forth and so on.

Which is kind of the point.  Trying to solve a problem which may or may not exist in the first place should be entirely secondary to solving the immediate problem - which is the Reapers killing everone.  Simple as that.  Stopthe Reapers - not stop pie-in-the-sky-nonsense-delivered-by-the-being-which-caused-this-mess-in-the-first-place.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 24 décembre 2013 - 11:51 .

[Only-Twin]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Personally, I'm not convinced the "problem" it is supposed to solve exists in the first place.

The introduced-at-the-eleventh-hour "Inevitable" organic vs synthetic conflict stroke "chaos", that is.

I'm with you. well, I suppose it is a problem, but it is one that can resolve itself. No "solution" should be necessary. 

Also, if synthetics fighting against organics is such a problem, what about organics fighting organics? Living creatures have fought each other forever. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StreetMagic wrote...

Despite picking Destroy, I want there to be AI. Both faulty ones and friendly ones. I don't want to solve any problems. Danger is what makes these games fun. The more problems, the better. Just so long as the problem isn't Reapers. We all saw what a pain in the ass that was.

Destroy is easily the most danger-averse ending. Whatever dangers arise there will be nothing organics haven't seen before. After the Reapers, most will be scared schitless about AI (most already were before they showed up), so it will be even less likely in Red to see AI in the immediate aftermath of the war. Blue and Green, OTOH, take on the challenge of accepting synthetics, even in the most dangerous possible form (the Reapers), because the general goal is worthwhile.

[KaiserShep]

Eryri wrote...

If so, then the Catalyst's job isn't complete. From its perspective, nothing has really changed. It was made because organics kept creating machines that could destroy them. But now, they've made a machine powerful enough to potentially destroy everything. Even by accident rather than malice. Suppose synthesis had misfired and shredded everyone's DNA instead of augmenting it?

Heck, before the current cycle, the protheans were capable of laying waste to others in quite a big way even without something like the Crucible. When they fought the Zha'til, they destroyed the entire star system, and when they fought the rachni, they burned hundreds of worlds.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Eryri wrote...

Wouldn't that be an example of irony, rather than allegory? In order for the Catalyst / Reapers to be an allegory, they would have to be representative of a broad idea or concept that exists beyond the confines of this fictional work. Since sentient AI does not yet exist, and nor does conflict between organic and synthetic life, then I'm not sure that there is anything in real life of which the catalyst can be an allegory?

I suppose, though this *is* a real-life topic for discussion/debate... sort of.

To refer to your earlier point that the Catalyst justifies its existance and actions by proving that runaway synthetics can exist, then (and forgive me if this doesn't make much sense as it's late on Christmas Eve and various forms of alcohol have been consumed) doesn't that argument go right back to square one if you think it through?

The Catalyst was created to stop Organic life engineering its own destruction by creating synthetic life that might surpass it. However, now that "the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics", organic life has proven that it can surpass synthetic life, and is therefore powerful enough to destroy itself, even without creating synthetic intermediaries. Suppose the Krogan design their own version of the Crucible, tuned to destroy anything that happens to have Turian DNA, or vice versa? If the crucible can selectively destroy synthetic life on the basis of whether or not it detects "Reaper Code" then selectively destroying a particular organic species is not that much more of a stretch. What if the Yahg, once they acheive technological parity with the rest of the galaxy, decide to build a crucible that targets everyone else?

If so, then the Catalyst's job isn't complete. From its perspective, nothing has really changed. It was made because organics kept creating machines that could destroy them. But now, they've made a machine powerful enough to potentially destroy everything. Even by accident rather than malice. Suppose synthesis had misfired and shredded everyone's DNA instead of augmenting it?

...

Is "that's not his concern" a good answer?

I mean, there are many things that could lead to an organic race's extinction that he doesn't concern himself with.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 25 décembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[KaiserShep]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I still don't trust the Reapers. They haven't shown that they are capable of anything other than turning organics into space slurpees.

Given what we learn about how they operate, I couldn't even trust that people could be in close proximity to them without losing their minds to prolonged exposure to their signal. Indoctrination almost seems to be some kind of involuntary function of their design, since even pieces of a dead reaper have driven people insane. What better way to keep everyone in line when it's all over than to subtly warp their thoughts to enforce peace? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 décembre 2013 - 07:54 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
They are one-in-the-same. The Catalyst is (and, by extension, the Reapers are) an embodiment of the synthetic threat that has surpassed organics in power (until the Crucible shifts the balance of power back to organics). The Catalyst proves that the threat of an all-powerful AI's creation is indeed possible, because he himself is one, and was created. 

In literary terms, this is called an allegory.

False.  That's just one, single, narrow-minded (and by no means proven) interpretation.  The Catalyst's conversation can just as easily be summarized as a red herring, a self-fulfilling prophecy and an example of fundamentally and irrevocably flawed logic.

And so forth, and so on.  Essentially, you're presenting OPINION as TRUTH, in the hope people will buy into your own interpretation of the facts at hand.

WTF... has Rinferno's inability to tell fact from opinion rubbed off on the rest of IT forum? =\\

The Catalyst's conversation can just as easily be summarized as a red herring, a self-fulfilling prophecy and an example of fundamentally and irrevocably flawed logic.

You realize that the bolded is all opinion, right?

A red herring is a distraction, which the Catalyst's schpiel is not (see below).

Which is all entirely beside the pointI was making anyway - your comment proves that the threat is possible, it doesn't prove that it is inevitable.

I didn't claim it was "inevitable" to begin with.

And no, this is not beside your point. This is relevant. You just don't realize it yet...

Your point is that the Catalyst's talk about organics vs. synthetics is a distraction from Shepard's immediate goal. But it isn't. It's the same problem Shepard has been dealing with since ME1 -- an all-powerful, hostile AI. And how you choose to use the Crucible to solve it is how you solve it for the Catalyst. Do you want this singularity-entity destroyed? That's Destroy. Want to make peace with it? Choose Green. Are you neither here nor there? Then you go with Blue.

Now, if the Catalyst started talking to us about some inevitable Dark Energy problem that would consume the galaxy (which was planned as one possible ending)... THAT would be a distraction from what the original goal was.

Not that, mind you, it wouldn't be something worth thinking about as well.

[Eryri]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

...

Is "that's not his concern" a good answer?

I mean, there are many things that could lead to an organic race's extinction that he doesn't concern himself with.

I've just been watching Leviathan's dialogue on Youtube:

"Leviathan: Before the Cycles, our kind was the apex of life in the galaxy. The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs.

We grew more powerful. And they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves.

Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race.

To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost....

(later) The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled."

It seems a very wide ranging remit. Anything that threatens the preservation of organic life would seem to be the Catalyst's concern, at least from Leviathan's dialogue. To me, Crucible technology or something like it, would seem to be far more dangerous than artificial intelligence.

This brings up something else about the ending that bothers me - the focus on AI as the most important issue in the ME universe.
If the Catalyst said that it's job was to preserve species before they destroyed themselves through any means, such as internal war (like the Krogan) or overpopulation (like the Drell) then I might have found it more acceptable. These are things that are worries in the real world. A potential takeover by artificial intelligences which don't yet exist in real life, and are actually quite amenable to reason in the ME universe (as proved by EDI and the Geth), is one of the reasons why I and many people don't take the Catalyst seriously

[Reorte]

Eryri wrote...

If the Catalyst said that it's job was to preserve species before they destroyed themselves through any means, such as internal war (like the Krogan) or overpopulation (like the Drell) then I might have found it more acceptable. These are things that are worries in the real world. A potential takeover by artificial intelligences which don't yet exist in real life, and are actually quite amenable to reason in the ME universe (as proved by EDI and the Geth), is one of the reasons why I and many people don't take the Catalyst seriously

The alternative is something that doesn't and couldn't exist in the real world, like the dark energy plot. Then you can make up whatever you like, within reason, since there's no real interesting debate to be had around the theme you've just pulled out of thin air. You can have limited in-universe ones. If, on the other hand, you're attempting to raise questions that have implications beyond the scope of your story then you also need to consider reality to pull off anything decently thought-provoking and actually make some good arguments for case you're tyring to make.

Since I was completely and utterly unconvinced by anything the Catalyst said, destroying the Reapers remained fundamentally no different than destroying a rabid, out-of-control animal.

[XxproknifaxX]

AnubisEgyptainLordofDeath wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Gee....why would anyone want to destroy genocidal sentient machines that have a body count in the hundreds of trillions?


Deal with it OP.