711 réponses à ce sujet

[voteDC]

SR72 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Exactly. A Reaper comprimise is a Reaper victory.

I take it people want a "good choice" where Shepard doesn't have to do anything the Reapers want and life in the galaxy goes back to normal? No one starves to death, no one gets stranded, mass relays don't explode, everyone returns normal. EDI and the Geth don't die (I believe the Catalyst is a liar about that, because he said Shepard would die too, but he wakes up at the end). Shepard reunites with LI and all is right with the world. Mass Effect is not a disney movie, where the hero wins the day and rides off into the sunset with his LI. It's not just about choices either. It's about choices and consequences. There's going to be some big consequences with ending the Reaper threat. This cycle got dealt a bad hand. Such as life. Not everything works in our favor. We don't know the future. Something could happen which makes things meaningless.

Unfortunately, the way the ending was set up was not all choices in your favor. There is no obvious "good choice" in this game. Not like previous games. They stepped up the difficulty here.  

Rejecting the Catalyst's choices wouldn't just return things to normal though. You'd still have devastation on a massive level to deal with. Hunger and disease would be rife on an unimaginable scale.

Personally I would have liked Shepard to reject the choices presented and say something along the lines of.

"Do you remember what I told Soveriegn? 'You're just a machine, and machines can be broken'. Where the hell is your blue-box."

We then get one last desperate fight to where the blue-box is located, which could perhaps be the same place as new Keepers are 'born', which is after all somewhere people are unaware of.

Destroying the Catalyst's 'brain' ends up having a similar effect to how destroying the possessed Saren hurt Soveriegn. I know the codex says this flaw has been fixed but surely destroying the thing that created and controls the Reapers would have some affect on them.

Then War Assets come into play. With what you've collected determining how you win, at what cost, and if at all.

[Nightwriter]

No, no, no, voteDC. Wrong. Any ending which opposes the Catalyst for any reason would automatically turn the post-war universe into My Little Pony. FACT. The trillions of casualties would come back to life. The governmental, socioeconmic, psychological, technological, and genocidal devastation done to intergalactic civilization -- including all the personal and dramatic deaths along the way such as Mordin's or Legion's -- would be undone. Also the Beatles would get back together and Firefly would come back on and tissues would never fail to pull the next one out ever again making you have to fish down into the box for the next one.

So it is written in the holy book, yea, verily, psalm People Who Disagree With Me Must Be Asking For Ridiculous Extremes, verse 3, unabridged version, right there in bold -- I mean, really.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "People come back to life, no one dies, everything is perfect from now on" is arguably more of a description of Synthesis than it is a description of any ending where we reject the technological crutch we have been leaning on for millenia and attempt to live on our own for the very first time in a galaxy now crippled by war -- and Synthesis is the epitome of agreeableness with the Reapers, right? So you would think that this Disneyness, if it exists at all, has more of a presence in pro-Reaper solutions than anti-Reaper solutions because all this alleged "space magic" is of Reaper origin and what is Disney without magic of one sort or another? Wouldn't an ending where we must struggle to get past our problems without the aid of peacemaking magic actually be grittier and more realistic?

Kill that line of reasoning. Kill it now. It does not matter. If you want a resonant victory, even if it comes at great cost, you are the one who wants the Disney ending.

Also, I hate to keep ragging on you like this, but I see you have not yet submitted to the Compromise Is Always The Right Path philosophy.

I was like you once. I ran around thinking that the acceptableness of compromise depends entirely on the context of the given situation and the nature of the party with whom you are reaching the compromise.

WRONG.

Compromise is always the mature and imperfectly perfect choice regardless of context. No matter who they are or what they did, you're selfish and inflexible if you don't compromise with your opponents. No, I don't want to hear your Oxford-worthy dissertation on why you believe unwillingness to compromise is the right attitude to take in this specific case, your arguments really don't matter, life is difficult and you can't always have it all your way, okay? Gawd. The definition of satisfying choice difficulty is not struggling with well written moral questions, it's struggling with which turd would be least horrible to swallow. And if you don't want to eat any turds at all -- you know, it's not all about you, okay? The Reapers agreed to put it on a plate for you, they're trying to meet you halfway.

I trust I have shown you the error of your ways.

[Eryri]

@Nightwriter

<APPLAUSE>

Sir or madam, that was among the most magnificent examples of sarcastiball that I have ever witnessed on the BSN. Bravo / Brava.

Seriously though, I agree completely. How anyone can defend the endings on the basis that anything else would be saccharine and immature, when Synthesis is such cavity inducing nonsense is quite beyond me.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 décembre 2013 - 07:14 .

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Once again. You're comparing technology from 2183 to 2013.[/quote]

Again, you're making up scenarios to fit your desired outcome. It doesn't matter anyway. There is simply no basis to presume the Crucible did anything to the Geth, Just like there is no reason to believe the Crucible did anything to the Drell.

So the very idea isn't even on the table. The burden of proof is yours and there is nothing in-game to support your desired outcome for the Geth to bring to the table.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Explain what the Geth has that you believe did not exist 50,000+ years ago? Every piece of tech in MEU is built on the tech of the previous cycles. Even the Geth built their dreadnought from scraps. The only common denominator here is AI and Reaper tech. Hm, how odd that both the Geth and EDI contained both while everything else that works at the end does not. [/quote]

The Geth are not built on mass relay tech or anything reaper. And if they, and everything else, were they and everything else would have been destroyed too. That did not happen. Patricks Weekes stated that EDI died because she was made of reaper parts. It had nothing to do with being an AI and NOTHING in-game says anything about the Crucible targeting AIs. Again, you're making up scenarios to fit your desired outcome.

Are husks AIs now?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
 
Yes we do. They stop functioning. Go play ME1 again. "Sovereign is not a ship it's a living Reaper!"

ME2: that was a human reaper being built. The same as all the rest just in human form instead of cuttle fish form.[/quote]

Your ignorance is showing. In ME1 they did not know any details about the reapers other than "big ship with AI". ME2 establishes that the Reaper is the "terminator" as they actually got to see the creation process. Your statement would be like saying Saren was the one in charge because that's what they thought in the very beginning. You ignore information gained afterwards. The ME art book shows the human terminator housed inside the cuttlefish dreadnaught ship. The developers have explicitly stated the terminator is the reaper and that all ships are cuttlefish shaped regardless of what the inside terminator looks like. This isn't up for debate. You can accept this fact or stop replying because you are simply wrong on this and I can't abide willful ignorance.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Ahem...

The Human-Reaper was an incomplete reaper[/b] being constructed by the Collectors. Under the orders of Harbinger,

EDI suggested that the Collectors were 'facilitating Reaper reproduction' by constructing a new Reaper[/b], 

EDI also speculated that every Reaper is built to resemble the race used to create it and that the Reapers had unsuccessfully attempted to construct a Reaper from Prothean raw material.[/quote]

So by this logic, all reapers are made of Leviathan and they simply eradicated all other races before the human reaper? Like I said, your ignorance is shining through. You are completely clueless about the lore and making yourself look like a fool. Either admit your ignorance or don't reply. 


[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]First, I don't have to prove anything. YOU have to prove it did. The burden of proof is on you.[/quote]Meaning you can't. [/quote]

Yeah, I can't prove unicorns don't exist. So by your reasoning they exist do until I prove otherwise. Your complete lack of rational thought continues to amaze me.

I can't prove that a race is alive that I have no reason to believe is dead. I can't prove any Salarian other than Mordin/Patek can survive the war. I can't prove the volus survived the war. I can't prove the hanar, drell, elcor, yahg, batarians, etc. survived. I can't prove every Qurian in the flotilla fleet over earth didn't die. They aren't shown cruising off with the human, Asari and turian ships so I guess they all died? 

They must all be considered dead until prove alive? 

No, we simply don't know what their deal is.
 
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...


[quote]You're the one making the claim.[/quote]

Actually I didn't. Here is my post: "No I'm not. I accept the possibility that the red wave targeted both code and hardware, perhaps in different ways." I never claim to know how like you do. I simply stated what I have seen in-game vs what I think happened. You are the one claiming that there is no way X happened. Yet you show nothing to back up your claim other than what you know of 2013 technology, denial of ending slides, calling the Catalyst a liar (something I agree with actually but it's speculation), and misinformation of in game information. [/quote]

So what makes you think the Crucible would target code in the first place? Versus thinking it would target Drell DNA, Volus suits or 50" flat screens?

What ending slide have I denied?

When did I call the Catalyst a liar in this thread as a argument for my position? I recall stating that it's debatable as the "effect" on technology could mean anything. But if you want to claim being "targeted" or "affected" means destruction you need to explain how nothing non-reaper is shown to be affected. Why the Allaince ships are still running? Why Kasumi isn't dead. Why Shep can surivive? Why are all the little pieces of tech are still active? Etc.

What misinformation of game info? List all the misinformation I've given.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...


[quote]The entire basis of the dead geth speculation is the lack of a Geth slide. That's it. You can chose to believe that a lack of evidence is evidence(), but that is not a rational conclusion and is pure speculation.[/quote]It's still better than nothing, which is what you have. [/quote]

What do you mean? The belief that the geth die is based on nothing.

I'm not speculating on anything. My position is that there is no basis for the assertion that the Geth all die. That's just the default position without adding or taking away anything. Without injecting any personal bias.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
As much as I hate that starbastard he does mention that destroy will target all synthetics and the Geth's "muscle" are synthetic material. [/quote]

More cherry picking, huh?

So is Shepard's parts, Kasumi's greybox, Tali's suit and implants, all armor suits for that matter, all ships (Alliance, Asari, Turian, etc.), all computers, phones, tablets, cars, guns, dropships, etc. etc. etc. All technology is synthetic. Yet none of this synthetic stuff disintegrated. Kasumi is shown in the slides you love so much as alive despite having a brain run on and dependent on synthetic tech. 

Your argument is further debunked in that Geth can exist in any material seeing as they are software. So even if you wanted to narrow synthetic down to android parts alone there are still Geth in their ships, servers, quarian suits, etc. And again, both Shepard and Kasumi should be dead by your logic as they depend of synthetics to live. 

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

EDI and Geth have some form of Reaper tech and not just the code uploaded on Rannoch. The Geth were getting upgrades from the Reapers to fight the Quarians in ME3. Let the Heretics Live? That's more Geth with Reaper upgrades since ME1. We know this because this was told to us by Legion. [/quote]

Geth have no reaper tech. Geth are software. They can't get physical upgrades. They could download into a superior piece of tech, but that tech would not be the Geth. 

Of course, you'll ignore this.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Starbrat does make the claim that all synthetics will be targeted. Geth are made of Synthetic material and a heck of a lot more of it than Shepard [/quote]

The Kid defines synthetics as "technology you rely on". Ergo, all technology. Shepard's vertebrae is synthetic in 3 places. 1 being the neck. He couldn't breath if that was destroyed as his brain would be disconnected from he rest of his body from the neck down. No breathe scene would be possible. In low EMS the KID specifically says Shepard will die BECAUSE of your synthetics. In low EMS you see EVERYTHING (i.e. all tech) is effected in a bad way. Note the difference?

High EMS: Tech intact. An ambiguous explanation in which all tech is "effected". What this "effect" will be is never specified.
Low EMS: Apocalypse; all tech is fubar. A very specific explanation in which all synthetic (i.e. technology) are explicitly stated to be destroyed

But you still want to ignore this and claim it singled out just the Geth while sparing all other synthetics? Shepard's breathe scene and Kasumi's slide demonstrate synthetics weren't "effected" in any big way.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Leigon tells us how different the Geth will be after the Reaper code, thus letting us know that whatever past info we had on them is now null and void. [/quote]

The Geth will be true AIs individuals vs. a collective gestalt intellect. That's the difference. Not some new super AIs that no one has ever seen before, but just plain old AIs that could be identified as such instantly by all the people standing around. So unless you have something claiming the Crucible targets AIs specifically you have nothing.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

We have an abandoned Rannoch in Destroy, never mind the fact that every slide from other planets show the inhabitants living there and/or returning home. [/quote]

Rannoch is the Qurian world and shows Quarian death. That slide is not about the Geth. It's about the Quarians. And you cannot logically associate it with the Geth as outside of Synthesis the Geth are not with the Quarians. The Geth are somewhere else if not synthesized. Now if there was an alternate version of the Control geth slide showing deactivated Geth platforms lying about you would have something. You have nothing. Bioware had no problem showing dead Krogan on Tuchanka. And they had no issue showing dead Quarians. But they couldn't show dead Geth?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

I'm not the one getting angry here, you are.  Seems to me as though you can't stop unless someone tells you you're right. All I did was speculate and provide pics and disagreed with you.  [/quote]

How am I getting angry? Considering this is typed over the internet, what makes you think I'm angry at you?


[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]And yet, the Geth fought with organics against the reapers without being controlled... and the reaper apparently couldn't control Legion due to the upgrade.[/quote]Why control willing followers?? [/quote]

So you're saying the Reaper wanted Legion to help the Quarians and everything Legion did (and the upgraded Geth did at Earth) was at the behest of the Reapers? So Legion was confined on the Geth Dreadnaught why? Seeing as he was willfully collaborating with the Reapers the whole time and helped destroy the dreadnaught because the Reapers wanted that. And the Reapers wanted the Geth fleet to fight them at Earth... riiiight.



[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

I never said the arm was the reason he was controlled. I said that the arm (a piece of Geth Hardware) was easily controlled by Sovereign. Remember, Saren was getting Reaper tech upgrades. We don't know if that Geth arm was one of the upgrades or something Saren had grafted before he became upgraded. But we do know that every part of Saren's body, including that Geth hardware was controlled by a Reaper. Which is evidence that Geth hardware is affected by Reaper upgrades.[/quote]

There is no such thing as Geth hardware. I don't know what it will take to get that through your head.
 
And Saren's corpse was altered. Not that it matters, but there was no geth arm after the transformation.

And again. Saren was indoctrinated and, if Shepard has a silver tongue, could opt to kill himself rather than stay an indoctrinated pawn. Take the lady in the Arrival DLC. She had no Reaper stuff in her and yet she did their bidding. Indoctrination: It's a pretty big deal in the ME universe. Surprised your lack of lore is that great. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever played a ME game.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Anyway, we gotta agree to disagree. I love the Geth too and I am all for a person coming up with their own story conclusions. Heck I don't even see DLCs as canon unless I played it thus making it a part of my Shep's story but I won't tell someone that what we were given in the vanilla game didn't happen, instead I use MEHEM when I want the Geth to live and the reapers dead, So I always have the Geth alive at the end of my story. But I won't demand that Bioware make the Geth live if ME4 is a sequel and I picked destroy.  I accept the sacrifice I made to kill the Reapers.  [/quote]

Are you implying that I am psychologically imbalanced and view the Geth are real beings? And that due to his psychosis, I can't let them go? Because that MUST be what you are implying as, if this was my state of mind I'd just never pick Destroy. Problem solved. I believed the Geth died too because of other people saying so although I never got that from the game. It's just popular consensus and I went along with the herd for awhile. I've even argued that the geth dying is the only rational choice and that their deaths do not excuse green or blue. Better 1 race dies than ALL races die. To put everyone at risk to hypothetically save one is absurd given what we know of the Reapers. Let me make this clear: I have no issue with the Geth dying.

I don't care about the Geth. If they die, so be it. As with any race I only really care about the characters that Shepard interacts with. With Legion gone they become irrelevant because it's a video game. Similarly, without Tali being alive wouldn't care about Quarians. They only matter as an extension of Shepard's relationships with his squadmates.

There is simply no logical basis to believe the Geth died. It's that simple. Having no reason to believe they died I have no reason to assert they died. My feelings about the Geth are irrelevant. I like the Krogan more than the Geth and I'd never go about saying, "I'm sure things got better for them eventually" if Wreave lived.

The only reason you believe they died is because of pre-EC (which was retconned). Nothing else. If you want to talk about pre-EC retconned universe this isn't the conversation for you. Because I fully agree there is reason for one to suspect the Geth died pre-EC. But there is absolutely none post-EC. You could not, cannot and will not provide any evidence that they died because none exists. It's your own head canon you have made up. It's shared head canon, but you chose to accept that group head canon (as I once did). Until it's stated in ME4 that the Crucible somehow for some reason killed all Geth it's just your head canon as it isn't based on any in-game information.

[The Twilight God]

KaiserShep wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

For example, where did you get this idea of the red wave targeting 'Reaper nanite based technology'? The husks have those but there is no evidence that the Reapers themselves have them, is this a 'feel' you have or is there some actual proof?

 
Suicide mission in ME2. It says it all. EDI explains how Reapers are made.

What line or lines specifically led you to establish this connection? I've gone through the entire diaogue tree, and EDI has no hard data about the actual process by which the reapers are constructed. She even says flatly that she is speculating based on limited data. There's no connection to be made between her explanation of the human reaper and how the destroy wave actually works that I can see. Anything regarding reaper code, or EDI's reaper-derived components, is strictly a fan-based theory, since there's never any real confirmation from either the game itself or any of the folks from BioWare.

Now, there is one instance where we get a hint about the reapers possibly having nanites of some sort in their construction, and that's if we listen to the logs on the derelict reaper.

Question: Those tubes were pumping what into the Reaper?
Answer: Human goo.

That wasn't enough for you? OK.



"It is emitting both organic and non-organic energy signatures" - EDI

"Reapers are machines. Why do they need humans at all?" -Shepard
"Incorrect. Reapers are sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material" - EDI

Reapers are synthesis. They are the combination of organic and synthetic. It is explicitly stated. How did you miss this?

The destroy wave is shown to disintegrate husks; who are synthesized beings. This is shown in-game. Those husks are human/synthetic hybrids. That same wave hit the humans and did nothing. So, we can see that it attacked the synthetic part of the husks and the human part was collateral by virtue of proximity (example: synthetic burns so attached organic matter burns with it). The Normandy scanners are able to identify the organic/synthetic matter of the Reapers inside the collector base. Note, that this is never detected in regards to the dreadnaught ships. This is all from in-game info.

We see that the red magic disintegrates synthesized beings.
We see that the human component is not targeted as the human soldiers are unaffected.
We see the Dreadnaught (which aren't said to be synthesized) fall over vs. disintegration.
We know that the Reaper inside is synthesized from ME2 ending.
The conclusion is that the terminator inside disintegrated, thus the dreadnaught simply falls over inert.

Is this a poor conclusion given the in-game material? What alternative is there given in-game information?

Now as far as me detailing exactly what the red magic does to synthesized material to cause it to disintegrate, that's just speculation. But the fact that it does disintegrate synthesized beings is shown. That's a fact. My most reasonable explanation is it breaks the atomic bonds of reaper nanite tech. But that's just an "educated" guess. 

[The Twilight God]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think it's a possibility at least. Nothing worth an extensive conversation though. I mean, a lot of things are possible. You never know when the floor gets taken out from under you, when it comes to Mass Effect. Anyone who tries to rest on actual "facts" is probably deceiving themselves more than Twilight God.

What imagined facts am I resting on?

My entire premise is that there simply is no reason to believe the Geth die. Like there is no reason to believe the Volus died.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Yet you, and others, feel the need to act as if I'm injecting something into the game to come to my conclusion. You fail to realize that YOU are the one making a claim and asserting a "fact". Without any evidence, might I add. The burden of proof is on you to show that the Geth (or Volus) are all dead. I don't have to demonstrate that the Volus (or Geth) aren't dead. That's just the default assumption, having no reason to believe they aren't alive.

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I didn't assert it, the Catalyst did. You are saying the Catalyst is wrong.

The Catalyst never singles out the Geth or any AI. That simply never happens post-EC. That's PRE-EC. All anti-AI comments were purposely retconned by Bioware.

As far as the Kid lying about the Crucible effecting "technology you rely on"? That's debatable as the so-called effect of being targeted by the Crucible is never explained. Where as in low EMS it explicitly stated the Crucible will destroy that "technology you rely on". Nothing is made INTENTIONALLY vague in low EMS. But regardless of what the Kid says, we see that technology appears unaffected. We only see Reaper stuff effected. Any supposed effect to any other tech is undetectable.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

She states that the construction methods are unknown, the only thing she says definitively about their nature is that they are, "Sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material." Everything else is mostly speculation on EDI's part. The closest reference to nanites is 'little swarms of robots' (which is said by Chakwas) which I'm pretty sure is a reference to the Seeker Swarms, which are hardly near a nanoscale.

I've went over this with Kaiser in an above post.

Unless there is some other way the Reapers merge synthetic with organic in the ME universe. You think they just pumped that human goo into metal and it just "combined" with sorcery? How does the synthetic "absorb" the organic? 

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The Catalyst said the Geth would be targeted. I put
up the entire
line the Catalyst says. The Geth are Synthetics, the Catalyst just
finished a very large presentation in which it told us all about
'Synthetics' (understood in context to be AI, given that
'synthetics',according to the Catalyst, can evolve and have self
determination).

When asked to explain itself, to explain WHAT WILL HAPPEN (in relation to the statement of "All synthetics will be targeted", its answer states nothing about the destruction of synthetics or AIs. Every piece of technology is synthetic. So if the Geth go ALL TECHNOLOGY MUST GO. If all other technology is ok, the geth should be ok. But again, total destruction is never mentioned in high EMS. Just low EMS and in the low EMS ending ALL TECHNOLOGY IS targeted in a destructive manner.

What does the Kid mean by "targeted" or "effected"? Seeing as in low EMs it explicitly state the red magic will destroy synthetics AND synthetics you rely on, but makes no such assertion in high EMS one cannot assume target = destroy. You're making the assumption that Target/Effected = Destroy. There is no basis for this conclusion especially considering it says they'll be some loses but nothing more than has already been lost (which is nonsensical doubletalk).

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

When asked by Shepard what exactly the Crucible released in this way will do, the Catalyst includes in his responce the addition that 'technology' will also be also be affected, it is not defining the term Synthetic, 'Synthetics' and 'technology' are not synonymous in the Catalyst conversation.

Yes, they are. The Kid says synthetics will be targeted. When ask to explain EXACTLY what will happen it's explanation is that tech you rely on will be effected. Ergo, that response is the explanation of "synthetics will be targeted". Go ask an English professor.

Your way requires Shepard ask the Kid a question and the Kid gives him a completely unrelated answer. This is how that conversation would go by your interpretation.

Kid:All artificial Intelligence will be targeted.
Shepard: What exactly will happen?
Kid: Non-AI technology you rely on and the people who rely on it will effected. But it will be easily repaired with hardy any loses.
Shepard: No, I didn't ask that. I asked what exactly will happen regarding your comment that all AI would be targeted. What does being targeted entail? What's going to happen to AIs?

In your view, the Kid ignores the question and never answers it.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

You would say a story is more than just it's literal parts right? That stories contain things like symbolism, connotations, imagery, etc? There things have meaning in a story, and Mass Effect 3 is a story. These elements are important. They are especially important in the ME3 ending where the literal parts are weak. The epilogue slides aren't just important in their literal depictions, they also have literary importance. That's why when the Geth don't show up it does have meaning.

So you are just interpreting something the way you want with no regard for actual story elements?

Because your derived meaning is yours. That's like me saying the Geth are 100% definitely alive because they weren't shown in a slide as anything otherwise. That's the meaning I could chose to interpret. Why show dead Qurians and Krogan, but not dead Geth. Must mean they aren't making any statements about dead Geth, right? The truth is we don't know. However, given that there is no evidence that the Geth are dead there is simply no reason to jump to that conclusion. I'm not stating that the lack of a dead geth slide proves they are alive. I'm saying I have no reason to think they are dead. Period. I don't KNOW their fate. I don't KNOW the Volus fate. But I'm not going to make up headcanon to fill that gap.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Destroy is in opposition to the Catalyst's old solution; however, Shepard is choosing a new solution because the old one doesn't work anymore.

The old solution is in effect to prevent Chaos. Chaos is the absence of reapers in a galaxy populated with organics and synthetics.
 
Shepard is choosing Chaos.

The Kid explicitly states it believes that picking Destroy will result in the return of the Chaos. It says your children will make new AIs and these AI will turn on them. That synthetic/organic conflict is the Chaos. The Kid claims to want to stop the Chaos.

If you initiate Destroy you are resetting the galaxy to pre-reaper times. What were those times according to the Kid? CHAOS. The Kid states it believes the Chaos will return. The Reapers believe in inevitability. The Geth/Quarian resolution didn't phase this mentality. Synthetic/organic conflict is always inevitable in their eyes. So what if the Geth don't start any trouble. Some other future AIs will. There were peaceful AIs integrated with organics in the Prothean era. Didn't matter. The Reapers destroyed them too.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Each of these new solutions do have thematic undercurrents and represent a metaphysical solution to the Organic vs Synthetic in addition to a literal one. Mass Effect is a story, where the literary elements have meaning, things like themes and authorial intent are important (auhthorial intent is very important, even though you don't seem to care much for it).

 
You're simply asserting you know the authors intent. I think the intent is to leave the dead geth sentiment from the pre-EC game. In which case, the authors intent is for you to deceive yourself into thinking the Geth die. So therefore, if I was to use your logic I could say YOU don't seem to care for the authors' intent. It's not good practice to simple assert you're right and act as if anyone who won't accept you premise without question is objecting to facts. You do not know the authors' intent.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

When you couple those with the entire context of the Catalyst conversation and what it says about Destory, it all amounts equals dead Geth and a dead EDI. Most of us would rather they didn't die in Destroy but the Catalyst is pretty clear that they will be destroyed.

Nothing in the conversation can be equated to Geth death without the destruction of all other technology as no mention of AIs are made. It either all goes or none goes. No cherry picking. The context is ALL TECHNOLOGY being effected. Not just a particular type. The Kid never makes a single comment about anything being destroyed outright. It says "effected" and "targeted". You have taken upon yourself to dictate that those words equate to destruction. That is your assumption. Your head canon. It has nothing to do with the actual dialog.

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Now I know you are going to start playing semantic gymnastics again and I'm certainly interested on what you're going to say next, it certainly is unpredictable. If you want the Geth alive that's fine, but don't pretend it's anything more than head-canon.

Like Volus being alive is head canon? You don't even know what head canon means. Otherwise, you wouldn't be using the term so improperly. All you do is pull stuff out of your butt, talk about your personal interpretations and act like those interpretations are facts. Even though you know they aren't.  You demonstrate this by your inability to provide any evidence to back your claims. All you have are your personal feelings about what you think the author meant by something that doesn't state explicitly what you THINK it's supposed to mean. All I've done is state that there is no reason to believe the Geth died. And there isn't. And you have not, will not and cannot provide a rational reason to think so. That cannot be head canon as it adds nothing nor takes anything away. It isn't an interpretation. It's simply a non-bias examination of the in-game material.

I'm not claiming anything that is not in-game. If you disagree, show me how simply not having any evidence for a conclusion (and therefore, not accepting said conclusion as fact) is head canon.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

SR72 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Exactly. A Reaper comprimise is a Reaper victory.

I take it people want a "good choice" where Shepard doesn't have to do anything the Reapers want and life in the galaxy goes back to normal? No one starves to death, no one gets stranded, mass relays don't explode, everyone returns normal. EDI and the Geth don't die (I believe the Catalyst is a liar about that, because he said Shepard would die too, but he wakes up at the end). Shepard reunites with LI and all is right with the world. Mass Effect is not a disney movie, where the hero wins the day and rides off into the sunset with his LI. It's not just about choices either. It's about choices and consequences. There's going to be some big consequences with ending the Reaper threat. This cycle got dealt a bad hand. Such as life. Not everything works in our favor. We don't know the future. Something could happen which makes things meaningless.

Unfortunately, the way the ending was set up was not all choices in your favor. There is no obvious "good choice" in this game. Not like previous games. They stepped up the difficulty here.  

Shepard could have reunited with his/her LI and all was well with the world. It just wasn't immediate gratification. It may have taken a few months. It depends upon how one interprets the breath scene and the slides. 

[Mr.House]

SR72 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Exactly. A Reaper comprimise is a Reaper victory.

I take it people want a "good choice" where Shepard doesn't have to do anything the Reapers want and life in the galaxy goes back to normal? No one starves to death, no one gets stranded, mass relays don't explode, everyone returns normal. EDI and the Geth don't die (I believe the Catalyst is a liar about that, because he said Shepard would die too, but he wakes up at the end). Shepard reunites with LI and all is right with the world. Mass Effect is not a disney movie, where the hero wins the day and rides off into the sunset with his LI. It's not just about choices either. It's about choices and consequences. There's going to be some big consequences with ending the Reaper threat. This cycle got dealt a bad hand. Such as life. Not everything works in our favor. We don't know the future. Something could happen which makes things meaningless.

Unfortunately, the way the ending was set up was not all choices in your favor. There is no obvious "good choice" in this game. Not like previous games. They stepped up the difficulty here.  

Giving us four poorly done and some(looking at you reject and merge) idiotic choices along with a really crappy ending and premise and writing is not "Stepping the difficulty up."

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 décembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

@The Twilight God

So you admit the part about the Red wave targeting Reaper-nanites is your speculation about what the Red Wave does?

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 27 décembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[Hazegurl]

The Twilight God wrote...
Again, you're making up scenarios to fit your desired outcome. It doesn't matter anyway. There is simply no basis to presume the Crucible did anything to the Geth, Just like there is no reason to believe the Crucible did anything to the Drell.

So the very idea isn't even on the table. The burden of proof is yours and there is nothing in-game to support your desired outcome for the Geth to bring to the table.

What is my desired outcome? if you read my post you would see that I actually want the Geth to live but when I when I want them to live while killing the reapers I pick MEHEM.

As for the artbook explanation, they should have put it in the game. They had three games to do it and never did. Seems to me like they just needed an explanation for their human-reaper design when they were playing around with the look. They actually could have included it (reaper core not human reaper) in the derelict reaper mission but didn't.  Anyway, I'll give you the reaper core argument and go with the artbook as that at least provides an explanation to the other races from the other cycles instead of none like the game provides. 

Speaking of the derelict Reaper, I won't even think of how no one spotted it but Cerberus and the Geth when it was probably destroyed several cycles ago and just floating there. 

Yeah, I can't prove unicorns don't exist. So by your reasoning they exist do until I prove otherwise. Your complete lack of rational thought continues to amaze me.

So basically it's okay to tell someone else to prove their point but the moment you're told to prove yours (since you're the only one sprouting off claims here) suddenly it's irrational?

Just like you used the artbook to prove your point about the Reaper core, where is your proof about the Geth?

So what makes you think the Crucible would target code in the first place? Versus thinking it would target Drell DNA, Volus suits or 50" flat screens?

What ending slide have I denied?

Once again, I said it's a possibility because it's Reaper tech. Did the Drell install Reaper code? Did the Volus? Using groups that do not have Reaper code is not helping you when the two groups that did (EDI and Geth are kaput).

If you're not denying the destroy ending slide of the abandoned Rannoch then stop arguing with people who bring it up.

Alliance ships are running cause they don't have Reaper codes and parts
Kasumi doesn't have reaper codes or parts
Shep doesn't have reaper codes or parts.

My position is that there is no basis for the assertion that the Geth all die. That's just the default position without adding or taking away anything. Without injecting any personal bias.

I find it funny that you claim you have no personal bias when your entire sig is based on your "speculation" that you can't stop arguing with people about.

(snip: lists of everything not running on reaper tech)

 

Thanks for that bit of process of elimination there. Now I can fully go right back to the very first position I had when I replied to you. It's the Reaper Code and Parts that killed EDI and the Geth.
Thanks for the help.

Geth have no reaper tech. Geth are software. They can't get physical upgrades. They could download into a superior piece of tech, but that tech would not be the Geth. 

Yet base don't the pic I posted, the reaper code changed their entire software. But keep on claiming nothing changed at all thus making their reason for downloading the code a silly waste of time.

How am I getting angry? Considering this is typed over the internet, what makes you think I'm angry at you?

Resorting to name calling ="ignorant" 
Comment such as "Pulling x out of your rear" = hostile 

I'm not going there, you are. You obviously need to calm down and head canon whatever you like.

There is no such thing as Geth hardware. I don't know what it will take to get that through your head.

I already know that. However, their mobile platforms are their hardware, they're using it.  Overall, the Geth downloaded Reaper tech multiple times throughout the years and a whooper of a code into their systems thus changing their entire neural network. Sucks to be them.

And again. Saren was indoctrinated and, if Shepard has a silver tongue, could opt to kill himself rather than stay an indoctrinated pawn. Take the lady in the Arrival DLC. She had no Reaper stuff in her and yet she did their bidding. Indoctrination: It's a pretty big deal in the ME universe. Surprised your lack of lore is that great. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever played a ME game.

And we're not discussing indoctrination but how Reaper TECH upgrades affect those who get them.

Those with known Reaper tech upgrades include: Saren (who also had a Geth mobile platform arm), EDI, and the Geth. Now go ahead and mention Kasumi, Volus, Drell and everyone else who don't have Reaper tech floating around inside of them so we can play the "One of these things is not like the other" game.

My quote: Anyway, we gotta agree to disagree. I love the Geth too and I am all for a person coming up with their own story conclusions. Heck I don't even see DLCs as canon unless I played it thus making it a part of my Shep's story but I won't tell someone that what we were given in the vanilla game didn't happen, instead I use MEHEM when I want the Geth to live and the reapers dead, So I always have the Geth alive at the end of my story. But I won't demand that Bioware make the Geth live if ME4 is a sequel and I picked destroy.  I accept the sacrifice I made to kill the Reapers.  

Your conclusion: Are you implying that I am psychologically imbalanced and view the Geth are real beings?
And that due to his psychosis, I can't let them go?

Hm, seems like you're just telling me what's really going on with you. I'll just leave you alone from now on.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 décembre 2013 - 07:56 .

[Nightwriter]

I wish these wall of text debates were a bit more accessible to people who are tuning in halfway through.

[TigusVidiks]

The Twilight God wrote...

TigusVidiks wrote...

Actually, the quote i said is present in the EXt Cut.
"Even you are partly synthetic" -  key word here is partly. 

Yes, present and taken out of context. Hence, I added...  ( ...bla bla bla bla bla...)

(...)

TigusVidiks, as a Sore Loser of the Month Award recipient it is obvious that no rational discussion will be possible. With that said, I'm going to have to end our discourse. I think we can both can agree this won't go anywhere and will only degenerate into name calling and ridicule. I understand that you feel the geth died in your gut. You feel that was the intent of the writers. But you can't rationally corroborate that feeling. That's cool. Believe whatever you want. If you feel they died, so be it. But don't act like you can demonstrate it objectively. No bad feelings. Good day.

Your new found hostility tells me I hit a nerve. Grow up.
Yes,  the catalyst does single out Sinthetics. you keep trying to dismiss it, as without it most of everything in your theory dies at birth. ( There you are again, trying to change the term to Ai's just so you can say the Catalyst never refers Ai's will be destroyed. Semantics)
And again, I already quoted the Catalyst dialogue before but as always, you restart every discussion with every new post, dismissing  any proofs people gave you before and presenting your opinions as proof instead, as if you had finally seen the light and are doing us a big favor by sharing it.
What you seem to miss, is that what you take for winning a discussion, is simply people getting tired of talking with you, because you present no valid evidence to your statements, and still claim that it's everyone else who needs to present evidence, despite other views are more commonly accepted. Just.... Dumb.
You are the kind of guy who would enter a Church during service and tell the faithful:
TG- you people are missing the point, God is gay!!!
and the faithful would respond: - What a heck are you talking about?
TG - It's in the bibble, if you read it like I did, you would know that God loves Men. He's gay!
faith - are you crazy?! God loves man, as in every man women or child!
TG:- That's your interpretation, doesn't mean your opinion is true.
Faith - And your assertion that God is gay, is also your opinion based on your interpretation. It's not proof.
TG - I don't have to prove anything, it's you who are sayin God is not gay, it's you who have to prove it.

just.... dumb. Little annoying kid dumb.

PS - This is briliant nonsense:

"the authors intent is for you to deceive yourself into thinking the Geth die."

That says it all about your theories.

Modifié par TigusVidiks, 27 décembre 2013 - 03:46 .

[voteDC]

Nightwriter wrote...

No, no, no, voteDC. Wrong. Any ending which opposes the Catalyst for any reason would automatically turn the post-war universe into My Little Pony. FACT. The trillions of casualties would come back to life. The governmental, socioeconmic, psychological, technological, and genocidal devastation done to intergalactic civilization -- including all the personal and dramatic deaths along the way such as Mordin's or Legion's -- would be undone. Also the Beatles would get back together and Firefly would come back on and tissues would never fail to pull the next one out ever again making you have to fish down into the box for the next one.

So it is written in the holy book, yea, verily, psalm People Who Disagree With Me Must Be Asking For Ridiculous Extremes, verse 3, unabridged version, right there in bold -- I mean, really.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "People come back to life, no one dies, everything is perfect from now on" is arguably more of a description of Synthesis than it is a description of any ending where we reject the technological crutch we have been leaning on for millenia and attempt to live on our own for the very first time in a galaxy now crippled by war -- and Synthesis is the epitome of agreeableness with the Reapers, right? So you would think that this Disneyness, if it exists at all, has more of a presence in pro-Reaper solutions than anti-Reaper solutions because all this alleged "space magic" is of Reaper origin and what is Disney without magic of one sort or another? Wouldn't an ending where we must struggle to get past our problems without the aid of peacemaking magic actually be grittier and more realistic?

Kill that line of reasoning. Kill it now. It does not matter. If you want a resonant victory, even if it comes at great cost, you are the one who wants the Disney ending.

Also, I hate to keep ragging on you like this, but I see you have not yet submitted to the Compromise Is Always The Right Path philosophy.

I was like you once. I ran around thinking that the acceptableness of compromise depends entirely on the context of the given situation and the nature of the party with whom you are reaching the compromise.

WRONG.

Compromise is always the mature and imperfectly perfect choice regardless of context. No matter who they are or what they did, you're selfish and inflexible if you don't compromise with your opponents. No, I don't want to hear your Oxford-worthy dissertation on why you believe unwillingness to compromise is the right attitude to take in this specific case, your arguments really don't matter, life is difficult and you can't always have it all your way, okay? Gawd. The definition of satisfying choice difficulty is not struggling with well written moral questions, it's struggling with which turd would be least horrible to swallow. And if you don't want to eat any turds at all -- you know, it's not all about you, okay? The Reapers agreed to put it on a plate for you, they're trying to meet you halfway.

I trust I have shown you the error of your ways.

I have seen the light :innocent:.

[KaiserShep]

Deception theory always brings the best debates to the table.

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

Deception theory always brings the best debates to the table.

Isn't this whole thing a different twist on the theory. It's not the Catalyst that is decieving us, it's players who are the ones decieving themselves?

[KaiserShep]

What a twist!

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't know what's real anymore.

[CronoDragoon]

I prefer Intoxication Theory myself.

[KaiserShep]

"Put more stuff in the thing more stuff goes in." ~Shepard

[ImaginaryMatter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I prefer Intoxication Theory myself.

Haha,

I'm not sure about Shepard but I know I'm usually intoxicated for the ME3.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 28 décembre 2013 - 01:01 .

[CronoDragoon]

I am too but that's because I'm usually intoxicated.

[ruggly]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I prefer Intoxication Theory myself.

This is most wonderful.