711 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

@The Twilight God

So you admit the part about the Red wave targeting Reaper-nanites is your speculation about what the Red Wave does?

Yes.

All we know is that is disintegrated husks. What exactly occurred to cause them to disintegrate? That's speculation. I think it's rational speculation, but speculation nonetheless.

[The Twilight God]

Hazegurl wrote...

Yeah, I can't prove unicorns don't exist. So by your reasoning they exist do until I prove otherwise. Your complete lack of rational thought continues to amaze me.

So basically it's okay to tell someone else to prove their point but the moment you're told to prove yours (since you're the only one sprouting off claims here) suddenly it's irrational?

Just like you used the artbook to prove your point about the Reaper core, where is your proof about the Geth?

The Reaper core issue. Does the game not say that Reapers are created based of an organic (or synthetic) races? That being said, and given the Leviathan DLC which establishes a Leviathan race, would the conclusion that the human reaper was the actual dreadnaught not dictate that all Reapers are made of Leviathan goo (must have been ALOT of Leviathans, huh?) and NO OTHER PREVIOUS RACES WERE HARVESTED? So either that terminator was the core or Reapers have never "absorbed" any other race besides Leviathans. Do you need the game to spell it out for you? It's either the core or the Kid is lying. Take your pick. The art book is icing on the cake.

You're ask me to prove that the Volus are not dead. Or you're asking me to prove that Pegasus isn't real. If you can't comprehend how it's irrational for you to conclude Pegasus is real because I can't irrefutably demonstrate that Pegasus doesn't exist, this bit of talk has reached its end. I'm not trying to be rude or mean. Honest. But if you really think this way you are simply an irrational person and one cannot have a proper discourse with an irrational person. Because you set off from the start claiming Bigfoot killed Jimmy Hoffa and claim I have to accept this claim because I can't prove otherwise. If you can't comprehend that the burden of proof is yours... oh, forget it.

You seem to lack a basic grasp of basic logic. Either that or you're being willful ling ignorant. Either way, I'm not going to continue this. It's absurd.

I'll address the other stuff you posted as not to leave you completely hanging. Just know that I probably won't read your replies if you are thinking about some long reply. I'm going to try and make this short (at least for one of our posts).

The idea that the Geth died is speculation based on nothing (but Pre-EC Kid dialog). To say the Geth aren't dead is as much speculation as saying the Volus aren't dead is speculation. I.e. I'm not speculating on the fact that I have no reason to think the Geth are dead.

The Geth have no reapertech... none, nada, zip, zilch, zero.
 
I never said the upgrades didn't change the Geth. I said it created true AIs. I said it didn't create anything out of the ordinary seeing as everyone recognized what was being projection as AI code. As opposed to not knowing what to make of it if it was some kind of new reaper specific program. It wasn't. It's just plain old run of the mill AI programming. The same as EDI or that AI in the Presidium from ME1. Legion with the upgrades says, "they are magnitudes above us. A single thought was immense. Overwhelming... Unknowable." The Geth did not become reaper AIs. They are just regular run of the mill AIs now.

Stating you pulled something out of your butt when you did pull it out of your butt is not hostile. It's stating a truth. To say the Geth die literally requires you to make something up out of thin air as there is no supporting evidence. You should look up the meaning of "ignorant" as name calling isn't ignorant. Although I don't recall calling you any names. I apologize if I did and hurt your feelings.

All your other stuff has been covered not only in this thread, but in my signature link. This has gone on long enough. It's apparent that I can't be convinced that something happened that I have no reason whatsoever to think happened. And it's obvious that you religiously believe the Geth are all dead, lack of supporting evidence be damned. So what is the point? All I can do is explain my position. I think I've already done this so there really isn't anything else to discuss.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:48 .

[The Twilight God]

KaiserShep wrote...

Deception theory always brings the best debates to the table.

This isn't Deception Theory

[The Twilight God]

Slow down now. You can only receive one award per month. Don't be greedy. Here is something to tide you over til New Years.
(Hands TigusVidiks the Cap of Abundant Dunce)

(TigusVidiks puts on the Cap of Abundant Dunce...)

...and demonstrates its abundant power:

TigusVidiks wrote...

Blah, blah, blah (intentionally ignores the Kid's dialog in high vs. low EMS and intentionally and knowingly misrepresents it in a magical display of willful ignorance) blah blah blah.

Now sit in the corner and wait until new years.

[Reorte]

The Twilight God wrote...

The idea that the Geth died is speculation based on nothing (but Pre-EC Kid dialog). To say the Geth aren't dead is as much speculation as saying the Volus aren't dead is speculation. I.e. I'm not speculating on the fact that I have no reason to think the Geth are dead.

The Geth have no reapertech... none, nada, zip, zilch, zero.

Although I generally agree with your stance I think that you're running into the conflict of common sense and author intentions. There is no sensible reason for the geth to die in Destroy, but there are several hints that the writers intended that they should be gone. Of course that completely fails for someone who isn't daft enough to think that reading between the lines and second guessing authorial intentions is more important than going with common sense and what's actually shown (hard enough as it can be to reconcile both of those at times). The breath scene is incredibly unsatisfying for similar reasons.

That's a big part of the problem with ME3's story in general, we're dealing with people who appear to think that only concepts, atmosphere etc. matter and that actually thinking about things like "why the hell would this happen?" is a bad thing, which is one of the reasons I take a fairly contemptuous attitude towards it.

[AlanC9]

Reorte wrote...
Although I generally agree with your stance I think that you're running into the conflict of common sense and author intentions.

Remember, TTG has a fairly idiosyncratic theory of Bio's authorial intent. They're deliberately lying to us because reasons; this is why some posters have referred to this thread as a rerun of Deception Theory even though the substance isn't all that similar.

I'm also not sure how common sense enters into it. The MEU doesn't operate on the same principles as this universe. Discussing what a technology ought to do based on RW science is not a productive form of analysis.

[von uber]

This has all probably been said before, but to be honest I can't see why anyone would choose other than a (high EMS) Destroy ending.

Control? Basically replacing the Catalyst and maintaining the status quo. Who says she will remain benevolent - especially if she is a renegade/ruthless type. You basically make the entire war pointless and just ending up being the ILM version 2.

Synthesis? Creepy as hell. Basically forcibly rewriting everybodies genetic code whether they want it or not? How can that be a good thing (not including all the handwaving of how it works).

Destroy remains the only viable option for em - it rewards making the most of your war assets (i.e genophage cure with Wrex, Eve surviving, peace between the Geth and Quarians, all surviving the suicide mission etc) and by extension making the most of trying to do the best for the galaxy as a whole.

Yes the endings are all fairly unsatisfying, yes I (like a few others I suspect) wanted to see blue / choose your race babies and the breath scene just doesn't really make up for it.
But if they go in any direction of a canon ending, then high EMS is the only way of actually allowing the universe to progress onto new stories which won't either just be a re-run of the reaper war or involve even more handwaving to get conflict from a bunch of weird synthetic-organic all-knowledgeable hybrids with glowy green eyes.

And you know what? If all the Geth died, so what? In a lot of people's playthroughs the Krogan died, or the Quarian. What makes the Geth so special?

[AlanC9]

von uber wrote...
And you know what? If all the Geth died, so what? In a lot of people's playthroughs the Krogan died, or the Quarian. What makes the Geth so special?

Nothing much.  If even more genocide is your cup of tea, go for it.

I'm with you on this being the best way to handle a sequel, FWIW.

[Hazegurl]

von uber wrote...

Destroy remains the only viable option for em - it rewards making the most of your war assets (i.e genophage cure with Wrex, Eve surviving, peace between the Geth and Quarians, all surviving the suicide mission etc) and by extension making the most of trying to do the best for the galaxy as a whole.

Yes the endings are all fairly unsatisfying, yes I (like a few others I suspect) wanted to see blue / choose your race babies and the breath scene just doesn't really make up for it.
But if they go in any direction of a canon ending, then high EMS is the only way of actually allowing the universe to progress onto new stories which won't either just be a re-run of the reaper war or involve even more handwaving to get conflict from a bunch of weird synthetic-organic all-knowledgeable hybrids with glowy green eyes.

And you know what? If all the Geth died, so what? In a lot of people's playthroughs the Krogan died, or the Quarian. What makes the Geth so special?

I agree. IMO, destroy is the only option for me. Although I loved ruthless Control.

The way I see it, there is no race in the galaxy that is worth allowing the Reapers to live. I see it as the equivalent of taking hostages. "Don't do this or X dies!" It's no wonder some posters are having it rough. But the way I see it, the Geth aren't so special that I would force the rest of the galaxy to live in fear forever "control" or damn near huskify everyone "synthesis" just to keep them alive. I've made peace between the Quarians and Geth so hopefully when a new AI is created organics can learn from their mistakes and not have a repeat.  

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

von uber wrote...
And you know what? If all the Geth died, so what? In a lot of people's playthroughs the Krogan died, or the Quarian. What makes the Geth so special?

Nothing much.  If even more genocide is your cup of tea, go for it.

I'm with you on this being the best way to handle a sequel, FWIW.

Careful.  I've learned the hard way that some people take umbrage at calling Destroy genocide

[AlanC9]

Huskify? They don't look or act huskified.

[Hazegurl]

An aware husk is still a husk imo. For the record, I don't consider those organic-machine creatures created in synthesis as being alive.

[von uber]

Genocide? Maybe. But preferable to enforced re-writing of everybodies DNA without consent or basically re-setting up the status quo.

[Wayning_Star]

why do you hate the machine people?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Reorte wrote...

That's a big part of the problem with ME3's story in general, we're dealing with people who appear to think that only concepts, atmosphere etc. matter and that actually thinking about things like "why the hell would this happen?" is a bad thing, which is one of the reasons I take a fairly contemptuous attitude towards it.

Then again, there are a lot of things in through the story that have no real answer to the question "why the hell would this happen?" and it hasn't bothered people. Clearly, if the ending were happier, no one would get hung up over the details.

[AlanC9]

von uber wrote...

Genocide? Maybe. But preferable to enforced re-writing of everybodies DNA without consent or basically re-setting up the status quo.

Sure. I didn't mean  to imply that Destroy wasn't a respectable choice. Some of my Shepards roll that way, although IIRC those that did had already written off the geth at Rannoch.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 décembre 2013 - 05:40 .

[Mangalores]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That's a big part of the problem with ME3's story in general, we're dealing with people who appear to think that only concepts, atmosphere etc. matter and that actually thinking about things like "why the hell would this happen?" is a bad thing, which is one of the reasons I take a fairly contemptuous attitude towards it.

Then again, there are a lot of things in through the story that have no real answer to the question "why the hell would this happen?" and it hasn't bothered people. Clearly, if the ending were happier, no one would get hung up over the details.

I don't want to go into nitpicking but examples? Yes, there are convenience and plot devices amass, the thing is particularly if they are just there to keep the story going it's no issue, it's when they cause a train crash these things become a problem.

In essence if it's just there to hush you along the story it's not a deal whereas when it becomes an integral part of the story it does.

Personally I think the examples you would come up with are either that or other weak points in the ME story.

[Reorte]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That's a big part of the problem with ME3's story in general, we're dealing with people who appear to think that only concepts, atmosphere etc. matter and that actually thinking about things like "why the hell would this happen?" is a bad thing, which is one of the reasons I take a fairly contemptuous attitude towards it.

Then again, there are a lot of things in through the story that have no real answer to the question "why the hell would this happen?" and it hasn't bothered people. Clearly, if the ending were happier, no one would get hung up over the details.

That's true but even if people enjoy it enough to overlook them it would be better still without those problems, a lot better.

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm also not sure how common sense enters into it. The MEU doesn't operate on the same principles as this universe. Discussing what a technology ought to do based on RW science is not a productive form of analysis.

I've said it before but IMO any speculative fiction has to establish its exceptions to reality early on and then work within those (and logical extrapolations of them) and reality, otherwise you end up with bugger all dramatic tension. Got a problem? Make up a solution on the spot. Yuck. Without sticking with real science and those established exceptions there's no challenge for the characters.

[TheRealJayDee]

Nightwriter wrote...

No, no, no, voteDC. Wrong. Any ending which opposes the Catalyst for any reason would automatically turn the post-war universe into My Little Pony. FACT. The trillions of casualties would come back to life. The governmental, socioeconmic, psychological, technological, and genocidal devastation done to intergalactic civilization -- including all the personal and dramatic deaths along the way such as Mordin's or Legion's -- would be undone. Also the Beatles would get back together and Firefly would come back on and tissues would never fail to pull the next one out ever again making you have to fish down into the box for the next one.

So it is written in the holy book, yea, verily, psalm People Who Disagree With Me Must Be Asking For Ridiculous Extremes, verse 3, unabridged version, right there in bold -- I mean, really.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "People come back to life, no one dies, everything is perfect from now on" is arguably more of a description of Synthesis than it is a description of any ending where we reject the technological crutch we have been leaning on for millenia and attempt to live on our own for the very first time in a galaxy now crippled by war -- and Synthesis is the epitome of agreeableness with the Reapers, right? So you would think that this Disneyness, if it exists at all, has more of a presence in pro-Reaper solutions than anti-Reaper solutions because all this alleged "space magic" is of Reaper origin and what is Disney without magic of one sort or another? Wouldn't an ending where we must struggle to get past our problems without the aid of peacemaking magic actually be grittier and more realistic?

Kill that line of reasoning. Kill it now. It does not matter. If you want a resonant victory, even if it comes at great cost, you are the one who wants the Disney ending.

Also, I hate to keep ragging on you like this, but I see you have not yet submitted to the Compromise Is Always The Right Path philosophy.

I was like you once. I ran around thinking that the acceptableness of compromise depends entirely on the context of the given situation and the nature of the party with whom you are reaching the compromise.

WRONG.

Compromise is always the mature and imperfectly perfect choice regardless of context. No matter who they are or what they did, you're selfish and inflexible if you don't compromise with your opponents. No, I don't want to hear your Oxford-worthy dissertation on why you believe unwillingness to compromise is the right attitude to take in this specific case, your arguments really don't matter, life is difficult and you can't always have it all your way, okay? Gawd. The definition of satisfying choice difficulty is not struggling with well written moral questions, it's struggling with which turd would be least horrible to swallow. And if you don't want to eat any turds at all -- you know, it's not all about you, okay? The Reapers agreed to put it on a plate for you, they're trying to meet you halfway.

I trust I have shown you the error of your ways.

<3

[AlanC9]

That doesn't really make much sense. If the tech doesn't follow RW science principles, it does not therefore follow that the tech solves the characters' problems better by not doing so. In the particular situation we're discussing the weird ME science makes the problem worse, not better.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

That doesn't really make much sense. If the tech doesn't follow RW science principles, it does not therefore follow that the tech solves the characters' problems better by not doing so. In the particular situation we're discussing the weird ME science makes the problem worse, not better.

I think what he's getting at is

http://clwilson.com/...1-making-magic/

The number one rule when creating magic is this: create your rules, then follow them.

[AlanC9]

That's not the problem Reorte mentioned. Wilson's talking about suspension of disbelief rather than solving characters' problems.

Which rules did Bio break and/or fail to establish, anyway?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

That's not the problem Reorte mentioned. Wilson's talking about suspension of disbelief rather than solving characters' problems.

Which rules did Bio break and/or fail to establish, anyway?

For myself, they violated Sanderson's Laws:

An author's ability to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic

This is the most egregious one.  Let's face it, no one understands the Crucible. Even the characters in the story were building it because the plot demanded it, not because they knew how to use it or what it does. 

Limitations >Powers  The price paid for using this space magic is never explored.  Geth are swept under the rug.  As are repairing the relays.  How people react to being ruled by the Reapers is never addressed.  Everyone is happy to be forced into Synthesis.    

Bioware got scared when people called them on their arbitrary tragedies done for no other reason than to make the endings "dark and edgy", and yet refused to actually take a hard look at what they put in the game ("artistic integrity" and all).  Instead they simply tried to sugarcoat them.

"Expand what you already have before you add something new."

The Crucible literally comes from out of nowhere.  It's not based on any of the "magic" already known to exist.  We don't even know who originally designed the Crucible or its functions.  It's not an expansion on anything, it sprang fully formed out of someone's head.  It's simply there becasue Bioware decided that 'The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally" 

[N7Gold]

d-boy15 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

And again, if synthesis ending peoples still corrupt or selfish as you said then it's solve nothing.

Synthesis isn't supposed to solve those things.

It's supposed to solve the organic vs. synthetic problem, if organnic still full of violance then the all out war
between both side is possible. Plus now with full emotional synthetic, the chance is likely increased.

Plus, the Leviathans created the Catalyst to solve this problem. Why? To merge organics with synthetics? Unlikely. To bring peace between organics and synthetics and at the same time establish a connection between all organic and synthetic life so that the Leviathans can "wirelessly" enthrall all life and use them as slaves like they used to before the Reapers existed? Most likely.

Modifié par N7Gold, 01 janvier 2014 - 07:34 .