711 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

That's not the problem Reorte mentioned. Wilson's talking about suspension of disbelief rather than solving characters' problems.

Which rules did Bio break and/or fail to establish, anyway?

As Iakus said it's about knowing the limitations. That's necessary in order to succesfully have tension and drama, as well as a convincing universe. A character falls into a pit? It's a hopeless author who suddenly reveals at that point that the character can fly, and even worse if there's been no suggestion whatsoever that any unrealistic flight is possible in that universe.

A similar problem occurs when stating that a particular side of a debate is fact in the fictional universe. It might seem harmless for an issue that doesn't exist in reality (even if it could) but intellectually it's no better than taking a racist standpoint and claiming "Well, they really are inferior in this universe" (although when aliens get involved some really will be cleverer, stronger, more stupid etc. than others, so you need to tread carefully).

[LtBashkar]

I don't like any of the endings, but of them all Control/Synth is the leas abhorrent. You wipe out the Geth and EDI in Destroy, even though you have options to not do that. "They can be rebuilt" is a cop out, as the game goes to great lengths to stress their individuality. They can't be rebuilt; they needed Reaper code to become sentient and all Reaper stuff is destroyed.

I can't imagine any Shepard would make the choice to go with Destroy on the slim hope they'll live, knowing full well the Geth/EDI won't.

[DeinonSlayer]

LtBashkar wrote...

I don't like any of the endings, but of them all Control/Synth is the leas abhorrent. You wipe out the Geth and EDI in Destroy, even though you have options to not do that. "They can be rebuilt" is a cop out, as the game goes to great lengths to stress their individuality. They can't be rebuilt; they needed Reaper code to become sentient and all Reaper stuff is destroyed.

I can't imagine any Shepard would make the choice to go with Destroy on the slim hope they'll live, knowing full well the Geth/EDI won't.

I've stated before that I believe anyone who chooses Destroy solely because Shepard can survive it is choosing it for the wrong reason. I, personally, find the forceable alteration of all life in the galaxy to fit the image of the genocidal maniac at the helm to be the most morally repugnant outcome available to us, and I don't trust Control - no entity, however "benevolent" they may see themselves, should have that kind of power.

I sacrificed the three hostages in Bring Down The Sky to ensure Balak never got another chance to harm anyone else. I see Destroy as being the exact same scenario, writ large. In this case, EDI and the Geth take the place of the hostages (only unlike the BDtS hostages, both EDI and the Geth state their willingness to die to defeat the Reapers). I agree neither EDI nor the Geth could be re-built as they were pre-Destroy (don't get me started on the latter's use of Reaper code), but then, I already view the Geth collective as (at best) a repentant war criminal, so I'm not exactly troubled by its passing. If there were more innocent synthetics in the crosshares, I might have more difficulty with the decision, but EDI was the only friendly casualty in my canon playthrough.

Pre-EC, my issue with Destroy wasn't the loss of synthetics so much as the destruction of the relay network and all that it implied (galaxy-wide dark age, mass starvation etc). The EC took most of that off the table. While regrettable, I find the casualties acceptable.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 janvier 2014 - 02:39 .

[Hazegurl]

It's not a cop out to say EDI and the Geth can be rebuilt, they can. It won't be the same EDI and Geth but they are machines that can be built and become sentient by their own means. Still not saying they would be the same EDI and Geth but yeah.

As for people picking Destroy just so their Shepard could live. So what? I've had playthroughs where that was my Shepard's number one motivation for doing anything.

[KaiserShep]

Personally it wouldn't concern me in the least if they can be rebuilt or not when it's a matter of ridding the galaxy of the space Blight.

[voteDC]

Who is to say Shepard lives in the Destroy ending?

Corpses have been known to take a breath. Even if Shepard had survived he/she would have had massive internal injuries, so would likely die pretty soon afterward.

Yeah, I'm in a pretty dour mood today.

[ElSuperGecko]

LtBashkar wrote...
I don't like any of the endings, but of them all Control/Synth is the leas abhorrent. You wipe out the Geth and EDI in Destroy, even though you have options to not do that. "They can be rebuilt" is a cop out, as the game goes to great lengths to stress their individuality. They can't be rebuilt; they needed Reaper code to become sentient and all Reaper stuff is destroyed.

I can't imagine any Shepard would make the choice to go with Destroy on the slim hope they'll live, knowing full well the Geth/EDI won't.

LOL, no.  Shepard has no guarantees that anyone will survive or not when choosing ANY of the endings.

Simply put, Shepard can choose to Destroy the Reapers (which was the original intention of the Alliance and all the other races who actually worked on and built the Crucible in our cycle), or Shepard can choose to attempt to Control the Reapers (which he/she had momens earlier argued was impossible, a pipe dream, an unnacceptable risk which would be gambling away the galaxy's future) or Shepard can choose the Catalyst's suggestion of Synthesis, and essentially place the decision back in the mad doctor's hands and let the Catalyst be the one to determine the galaxy's fate.

As for not choosing Destroy simply to try and save EDI and the Geth, well, EDI already stated she's fight the Reapers to the death and would rather face non-functionality than becoming there slave (maybe a few people could learn from herr example), and the Geth also knew the risks and the odds when they joined the war (assuming they're still around in the first place of course).

Personally, I can't imagine any Shepard who would be willing to follow in the Illusive Man's footsteps, or step into Saren's shoes.  But of course, to each their own...

[Massa FX]

I destroy. It doesn't matter what their purpose is. The Reapers are extinct in my games future... no cost is too high. Future generations won't need to deal with them.

My job is done when the red beam of Reaper death does its job.

[KaiserShep]

voteDC wrote...

Who is to say Shepard lives in the Destroy ending?

Corpses have been known to take a breath. Even if Shepard had survived he/she would have had massive internal injuries, so would likely die pretty soon afterward.

Yeah, I'm in a pretty dour mood today.

Medigel will buff that right out. Walk it off, Shep.

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

voteDC wrote...

Who is to say Shepard lives in the Destroy ending?

Corpses have been known to take a breath. Even if Shepard had survived he/she would have had massive internal injuries, so would likely die pretty soon afterward.

Yeah, I'm in a pretty dour mood today.

Medigel will buff that right out. Walk it off, Shep.

Medi-gel is one hell of a drug.

[General TSAR]

LtBashkar wrote...
 but of them all Control/Synth is the leas abhorrent.

Being galactic overlord or violating the biology of trillions is better than the deactivation of a single robot (if the toasters are decommissioned)?

LtBashkar wrote...
I can't imagine any Shepard would make the choice to go with Destroy on the slim hope they'll live, knowing full well the Geth/EDI won't.

What about Sheps who recognize them for being just machines and not alive?

Modifié par General TSAR, 03 janvier 2014 - 01:56 .

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't die for the synthetics, whether or not I truly believed they were alive.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 janvier 2014 - 01:59 .

[Hazegurl]

I believe that the Geth and EDI believe they are alive but at the end of the day they are just machines with superior processing power to other machines. They're not worth altering the entire galaxy for when more can be made after the war is over and they most certainly aren't worth Shepard dying for. That's like dying for a fancy computer. Yeah it may be the best model but if it breaks you can either fix it or get a new one.

[TGC84]

Shepard was always gonna die, seriously no one else saw that coming? I liked the synthisis ending. I don't believe it's violating anyone's biology. Who wouldn't want to interface with tech and synthetics? Destroy was never an option for me, kill Geth? Edi? Nah. Control, never ever gonna happen.

[Obadiah]

Hazegurl wrote...

I believe that the Geth and EDI believe they are alive but at the end of the day they are just machines with superior processing power to other machines. They're not worth altering the entire galaxy for when more can be made after the war is over and they most certainly aren't worth Shepard dying for. That's like dying for a fancy computer. Yeah it may be the best model but if it breaks you can either fix it or get a new one.

There are enough stories about Captains going down with the ship. Feeling attached to a reliable device, or an fancy computer, to the point of sacrificing oneself for it is not implausible.

[Hazegurl]

alleyd wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I believe that the Geth and EDI believe they are alive but at the end of the day they are just machines with superior processing power to other machines. They're not worth altering the entire galaxy for when more can be made after the war is over and they most certainly aren't worth Shepard dying for. That's like dying for a fancy computer. Yeah it may be the best model but if it breaks you can either fix it or get a new one.

In MEU the  synthetic lifeforms are not "made", the Geth and EDI are products of evolution not creation. Sure they stem from simpler "created" entities, EDI from a VI and the Geth from software that had been built with learning protocols. The final step to becoming "Alive" was never built into the system, it evolved independently.

Evolution is not a solid state mechanism, you could run the exact same "environmental" processes, the same timeline and have the same base, but you will not have any guarantee that the entity that evolved would be in any way similar to the ones destroyed.

I disagree, EDI and the Geth did not just spring into magical existence, they were a series of parts put together by someone to serve a purpose.  Eventually they gained enough processing power to think outside of their created function.  Having the tech from a group of machines that existed for billions of years helps. Doesn't mean their alive or even evolved. That's like installing a new Windows OS on my laptop and claiming it's evolving. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

btw, I already mentioned that the next machines won't be like EDI and the Geth. Just that more machines can be built and they too can reach the same level given time, programs etc.

@Obadiah, You're right, it's not implausible just stupid.

@StreetMagic, IMO, Destroy isn't being closed minded. It's Shepard not jumping just because some reaper creator tells him to based on what he believes to be faulty logic. It's Shepard not listening to the advice of two indoctrinated reaper slaves.

"And who will you listen to Shepard? An old soldier, stuck in his ways, only able to see the world down the barrel of a gun? Or me, who's been clearly indoctrinated by the Reapers."

*fixed for TIM*
Oh the choice is just so hard...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

StreetMagic wrote...

I mean closeminded in a good way. I mean having boundaries - and killing whoever is outside of it. Sometimes you just got to say "**** off and die." Especially towards something like Reapers. As far as I'm concerned, that's a no brainer.

I still fail to see how anyone could have a problem with killing the cuttlefish and the "I wanna be a real boy!" crap they pinnocchio'd the synthetics into.

Bird dying and stones and all that.

[Obadiah]

Hazegurl wrote...

I believe that the Geth and EDI believe they are alive but at the end of the day they are just machines with superior processing power to other machines. They're not worth altering the entire galaxy for when more can be made after the war is over and they most certainly aren't worth Shepard dying for. That's like dying for a fancy computer. Yeah it may be the best model but if it breaks you can either fix it or get a new one.

Just realized that's what the Reapers think about Organics: they're alive, but we AI have other considerations. "Break 'em" and some new ones will grow.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 janvier 2014 - 01:55 .

[Obadiah]

StreetMagic wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I believe that the Geth and EDI believe they are alive but at the end of the day they are just machines with superior processing power to other machines. They're not worth altering the entire galaxy for when more can be made after the war is over and they most certainly aren't worth Shepard dying for. That's like dying for a fancy computer. Yeah it may be the best model but if it breaks you can either fix it or get a new one.

Just realized that's what the Reapers think about Organics: they're alive, but we have other considerations. "Break 'em" and some new ones will grow.

That's a fair way looking at it.

And whoever is right, in the end, comes down to who has more power. Ultimately, the conflict is as juvenile as it gets. Might makes right.

One could look at almost any war like that.