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[George Costanza]

I just blow them up because it gives the story the least stupid conclusion out of the available options.

Modifié par George Costanza, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:38 .

[RangerSG]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

LtBashkar wrote...
I don't like any of the endings, but of them all Control/Synth is the leas abhorrent. You wipe out the Geth and EDI in Destroy, even though you have options to not do that. "They can be rebuilt" is a cop out, as the game goes to great lengths to stress their individuality. They can't be rebuilt; they needed Reaper code to become sentient and all Reaper stuff is destroyed.

I can't imagine any Shepard would make the choice to go with Destroy on the slim hope they'll live, knowing full well the Geth/EDI won't.

LOL, no.  Shepard has no guarantees that anyone will survive or not when choosing ANY of the endings.

Simply put, Shepard can choose to Destroy the Reapers (which was the original intention of the Alliance and all the other races who actually worked on and built the Crucible in our cycle), or Shepard can choose to attempt to Control the Reapers (which he/she had momens earlier argued was impossible, a pipe dream, an unnacceptable risk which would be gambling away the galaxy's future) or Shepard can choose the Catalyst's suggestion of Synthesis, and essentially place the decision back in the mad doctor's hands and let the Catalyst be the one to determine the galaxy's fate.

As for not choosing Destroy simply to try and save EDI and the Geth, well, EDI already stated she's fight the Reapers to the death and would rather face non-functionality than becoming there slave (maybe a few people could learn from herr example), and the Geth also knew the risks and the odds when they joined the war (assuming they're still around in the first place of course).

Personally, I can't imagine any Shepard who would be willing to follow in the Illusive Man's footsteps, or step into Saren's shoes.  But of course, to each their own...

This is what my Shepherd's think as well. To choose Control is to accept what you almost certainly argued seconds before was too dangerous a path. To choose Synthesis doesn't answer why Reaper code and logic wouldn't 'infect' everything that lives. After millions of years of destroying all advanced sentient life, they're going to change because some organic life is grafted into them? Why? What prevents them from purging it and starting the cycle all over again.

Both of these options also operate on the assertion that the thing giving you these options can actually be trusted. This despite the fact it's 'solution' has been a non-solution all along, and is the leader of the things you've sworn to stop from the beginning. To believe the Starbrat is incapable of lying to you, when a much less complex AI (EDI) already has shown the ability to deceive organics, makes Sheperd out to be gullible on a galactic scale.

If ANY of the races building the Crucible throughout history had known the Reaper-god was necessary to power the device, would any of them have built it?

Destroy is the only ending consistent with Sheperd's stated goals throughout the series. It's the only ending that matches the intent of all those who died to see the Crucible built. 

[Seival]

jtav wrote...

As the thread title says, I'm seemingly incapable of destroying the Reapers, or rather, creating a Shep who wants to destroy them.

"But it was our job to destroy the Reapers" you say? First it's been expected Shepard will do lots of things she doesn't necessarily do. Secondly, we (or I at least) don't want the destruction of the Reapers for its own sake. My Shepards want various things depending on their backstory, but their usual overarching goal is either the preservation of galactic civilization  as such or the desire to "add something good to the world." Control does a much better job preserving the infrastructure of Citadel space. Synthesis provides goodies like maskless quarians and futuristic cities for those that want to improve the galaxy. I find "freedom" a rather nebulous and hollow concept, especially given that ME characters seem to use that freedom to be jerks and morons. I've had too much experience with a medical condition nearly as limiting as a quarian suit to think too much of standing on my own two feet. My Shepards will always take concrete benefits over defending ideals I don't even believe in.

I can't choose Destroy too. And I find Refuse even worse than Destroy.
Why should I Destroy or Refuse, when I have two other options that can stop the Reapers plus save so many lives?

[MattFini]

Destroy is literally the only thing I'm comfortable with...even after all this time.

I don't trust Control after ME3 spends so much time painting controllers as villains. And synthesis...

[General TSAR]

Seival wrote...
Why should I Destroy or Refuse, when I have two other options that can stop the Reapers plus save so many lives?

Excellent idea, save a life by mutating it or making it bow down to a galactic god with a fleet of planetcrackers.<_<

[AlanC9]

Depends on how your Shepard wants to run things, of course.

[The Twilight God]

Reorte wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The idea that the Geth died is speculation based on nothing (but Pre-EC Kid dialog). To say the Geth aren't dead is as much speculation as saying the Volus aren't dead is speculation. I.e. I'm not speculating on the fact that I have no reason to think the Geth are dead.

The Geth have no reapertech... none, nada, zip, zilch, zero.

Although I generally agree with your stance I think that you're running into the conflict of common sense and author intentions. There is no sensible reason for the geth to die in Destroy, but there are several hints that the writers intended that they should be gone. Of course that completely fails for someone who isn't daft enough to think that reading between the lines and second guessing authorial intentions is more important than going with common sense and what's actually shown (hard enough as it can be to reconcile both of those at times). The breath scene is incredibly unsatisfying for similar reasons.

That's a big part of the problem with ME3's story in general, we're dealing with people who appear to think that only concepts, atmosphere etc. matter and that actually thinking about things like "why the hell would this happen?" is a bad thing, which is one of the reasons I take a fairly contemptuous attitude towards it.

As far as Geth, neither you nor I can positively assert what the authors' intended. This idea that you KNOW the intend is flawed in a major way: You aren't a mind reader. We both believe in two different intents. Neither is more valid than the other.

I have never ruled out the Bad Writing theory. It's clear they have no decent plot writer on the ME team so bad writing is definitively possible and valid conclusion. Their scurry to try and retcon the whole universe via twitter to fix their lore inconsistencies show they lack total competence. You'll get no argument from me there. Albeit, once you take that route discussion is off the table as nothing really matters. Anything is possible and nothing needs explanation nor needs to make sense. So, I wouldn't be here discussing anything because a true discussion is impossible when literally anything goes.

BUT...

Seeing as some form of coherence can be gleamed from the ending, I don't jump to the immediate conclusion that it's just ultra bad writing. Like I wouldn't say a witch's spell is the reason my light doesn't work. Not when I heard a zap last time I turned it on and I can smell hot metal. Again, I'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt because there is a rational explanation of events. This is what people like AlanC9 (who take ever opportunity to insult me because they are butt hurt that I soured green and blue) can't comprehend. He'll keep stating - basically - "it's bad writing". OK, valid perspective. But clearly there is no room for any discussion in that case. So just close down the discussion forums. To discussion it in any meaningful way there must be an assumption of coherence. Deception Theory has tons of evidence. Some like to dismiss it as lots of coincidences or whatever. Fine. But no one can honestly dispute its merit. (i.e. it has never been rebutted and has held up against attacks by all detractors). Now if ME4 releases and they continued with Synthesis as the canon ending or something along those lines. Then you're left with only bad writing. But until then...

[Darks1d3]

The Twilight God wrote...
Seeing as some form of coherence can be gleamed from the ending, I don't jump to the immediate conclusion that it's just ultra bad writing. Like I wouldn't say a witch's spell is the reason my light doesn't work. Not when I heard a zap last time I turned it on and I can smell hot metal. Again, I'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt because there is a rational explanation of events. This is what people like AlanC9 (who take ever opportunity to insult me because they are butt hurt that I soured green and blue) can't comprehend. He'll keep stating - basically - "it's bad writing". OK, valid perspective. But clearly there is no room for any discussion in that case. So just close down the discussion forums. To discussion it in any meaningful way there must be an assumption of coherence. Deception Theory has tons of evidence. Some like to dismiss it as lots of coincidences or whatever. Fine. But no one can honestly dispute its merit. (i.e. it has never been rebutted and has held up against attacks by all detractors). Now if ME4 releases and they continued with Synthesis as the canon ending or something along those lines. Then you're left with only bad writing. But until then...

OK, I'm going to have to say the bolded part is a load of BS. Based on what I've seen of AlanC9's posts, I don't think he prefers one ending or the other. IIRC, he's chosen all three options depending on how he roleplayed his Shepard. He calls it "bad writing" because he thinks it's bad writing. Nothing more or less. The only one getting "butt hurt" is you.

[AlanC9]

Darks1d3 wrote...


OK, I'm going to have to say the bolded part is a load of BS. Based on what I've seen of AlanC9's posts, I don't think he prefers one ending or the other. IIRC, he's chosen all three options depending on how he roleplayed his Shepard. He calls it "bad writing" because he thinks it's bad writing. Nothing more or less. The only one getting "butt hurt" is you.

Yes, exactly. While on a straight-up utilitarian basis I thing Control comes out one or two percentage points ahead of the others, it's not a very big lead, and I've got Shepards who have done all three endings. (I still haven't done my Refuse play yet; I figure that will be a non-import Shep, and I'm not out of imports yet.)

Edit: I certainly do oppose certain preposterous ending interpretations, though.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:28 .

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...
I refuse to play any of Bioware's endings, I'm more paragon than paragon

Word. It's MEHEM or uninstall the game. 

[von uber]

I've just read The Twilight God's posts he linked to; they seemed fairly well argued to me.

[N7Gold]

George Costanza wrote...

I just blow them up because it gives the story the least stupid conclusion out of the available options.

Blame the Reapers, not BioWare.

[The Twilight God]

Darks1d3 wrote...

OK, I'm going to have to say the bolded part is a load of BS. Based on what I've seen of AlanC9's posts, I don't think he prefers one ending or the other. IIRC, he's chosen all three options depending on how he roleplayed his Shepard. He calls it "bad writing" because he thinks it's bad writing. Nothing more or less. The only one getting "butt hurt" is you.

It's not a matter of preferring any particular ending. It's a matter of perceiving those endings as valid or invalid. Green and Blue are effectively invalidated as "win" endings if you acknowledge the lore and story. Deception Theory effectively reduces the amount of valid endings to one "win" ending. And even that one ending is still crap if that's how they're really going to end that story arc. That's why he is butt hurt. Because despite his emotional resistance, he intellectually has no choice but to accept Deception Theory as not only valid, but extremely plausible. It pissed me off that red was the only win ending for a good while too, but I got over it. 

I went to the Dream Theory page some time back, debunked it, got flamed to ashes, realized the mentality of some of the nastier ITers and then left. I didn't run around making veiled and open insults to ITers every time they make a post. Their ideas were preposterous and objectively falsifiable. It didn't upset me that they believed what they believed. Why does DT bother AlanC9 so much if it's so preposterous? Why can't he debunk it? It being preposterous debunking it should be easy.

von uber wrote...

I've just read The Twilight God's posts he linked to; they seemed fairly well argued to me.

That's what really gets under people's skin. The fact that it makes perfect sense and all the in-game events across the trilogy corroborates it. And they can't find any fault in it. That's why they have to bring up the Dream Theory (IT). They cannot find a ****** in Deception's armor so they compare it to something completely different and hope the reader is ignorant of the facts and just accepts the comparison blindly.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

[RangerSG]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

Why deceive Shep? The Starbrat gives a clue. It never thought the Crucible could be finished. Now it has been. "Someone" will get it to fire eventually. Besides, Shepard's already cheated death more than once. Best to put that problem away once and for all.

As far as Control being the only option, I would take that as a loss. You can't be sure the Reapers won't slip the leash just because your disembodied will says they can't. They've already overthrown organic overlords once. Control in that instance is 'slightly' better than Refuse, if only because Sheperd could take the time to rebuild and delve the Reapers' secrets so organics could be ready for when they broke free. But it still leave the galaxy in peril, IMHO.

I can't see Control as a good ending. Aside from Shep dying, it doesn't 'solve' the purported problem. The Reapers broke free once. How could you be sure they wouldn't again?

[ImaginaryMatter]

The solution is simple, if the Catalyst fears the Crucible order the Reapers to focus fire on it. Plus, Shepard can't do anything if he's stuck at the bottom of the elevator, or if the decision chamber is spaced.

The point of the Control only comment was to state that the Catalyst doesn't have to inform Shepard of the Destroy option and Shepard doesn't seem to care much about the lack of other options.

[Almostfaceman]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

Indeed, why bring Shepard up the elevator at all? Starbrat acts as if Shep has achieved something by being bleeding and mostly unconscious on a platform, so it brings him to it. It's one dumb aspect of a dumb ending.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:10 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Oh, I was commenting on the Deception Theory. If the Catalyst wants to deceive Shepard so he doesn't choose the Destroy option why bother activating the elevator to bring him up to the decision chamber? Why just not leave him below to bleed out? Even if Shepard doesn't die it's not like he can start climbing up there.

Or the Catalyst can switch around what the choices are. Tell Shepard the Control option is Destroy and say Synthesis is Control. Or maybe all the choices are a trick and the Catalyst is just being a troll, and the actual activation button for the Crucible is on the other side of the prong things.

My point is if the Catalyst wanted to deceive Shepard there are much better ways to do so. Is Deception Theory valid? Sure, why not. But like IT and many other things it depends a lot on conjecture, arguments about semantics, making sense out of space magic, etc. That's why you can't really contradict it because it's filling in large gaps left by the nonsensical, ambiguous nature of the Catalyst conversation.

[jamesp81]

RangerSG wrote...

Destroy is the only ending consistent with Sheperd's stated goals throughout the series. It's the only ending that matches the intent of all those who died to see the Crucible built. 

It's also the only one that makes any sense whatsoever as long as you accept the space magic death-beam nature of it.

Control represents a victory for Cerberus, as it achieves their original goal.  I don't want that.

Synthesis is ill conceived from a writing standpoint, makes no sense from a story standpoint, and is fraught with danger.  We can see the results of synthesis throughout the game.  Just get a good close look at the Banshees when you go to the Ardat-Yakshi monastery.  That's your great vision for the future if you choose synthesis.

Destroy is the only choice that defeats the enemy decisively, and frees the galaxy of their predation.  Yes, it sucks that synthetics get the short of the end of the stick on that one.  On the other hand, if the consequences were reversed and all organics died but synthetics survived, I'd still choose Destroy.  Hell, if the consequence was everybody would die....I would man up, raise my pistol, and shoot the damn tube because if I couldn't save my own people, I would make DAMNED sure that the Reapers never harmed any other people again.

[jamesp81]

Almostfaceman wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

Indeed, why bring Shepard up the elevator at all? Starbrat acts as if Shep has achieved something by being bleeding and mostly unconscious on a platform, so it brings him to it. It's one dumb aspect of a dumb ending.

I'm going to put that one down to bad writing.  JMO

[ImaginaryMatter]

jamesp81 wrote...

Destroy is the only choice that defeats the enemy decisively, and frees the galaxy of their predation.  Yes, it sucks that synthetics get the short of the end of the stick on that one.  On the other hand, if the consequences were reversed and all organics died but synthetics survived, I'd still choose Destroy.  Hell, if the consequence was everybody would die....I would man up, raise my pistol, and shoot the damn tube because if I couldn't save my own people, I would make DAMNED sure that the Reapers never harmed any other people again.

Hmm, that would make for an interesting choice.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:37 .

[Almostfaceman]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

But like IT and many other things it depends a lot on conjecture, arguments about semantics, making sense out of space magic, etc. That's why you can't really contradict it because it's filling in large gaps left by the nonsensical, ambiguous nature of the Catalyst conversation.

I'd agree. I have no problem with conjecture in the spirit of fun but yes that's all it is, is conjecture. Not proof.

[The Twilight God]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

This has already been covered in the actual DT thread. I don't expect you to go through the entire thread and I don't like getting into discussing DT proper in other people's threads. Especially with comments like, "But like IT and many other things it depends a lot on conjecture, arguments about semantics, making sense out of space magic, etc.". This really isn't the place. And you're being vague and making what I would consider false claims.  I'll discuss it with you in that thread if you like.

But I'll pose you this question: What makes you think the Kid raised the elevator? Have you seen the Kid's low EMS introduction?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:44 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Twilight God wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Why bother deceiving Shepard when all the kid had to do was just leave him alone at the bottom of the elevator?

Also what about cases where only the Control option is available?

This has already been covered in the actual DT thread. I don't expect you to go through the entire thread and I don't like getting into discussing DT proper in other people's threads. Especially with comments like, "But like IT and many other things it depends a lot on conjecture, arguments about semantics, making sense out of space magic, etc.". This really isn't the place. And you're being vague and making what I would consider false claims.  I'll discuss it with you in that thread if you like.

But I'll pose you this question: What makes you think the Kid raised the elevator? Have you seen the Kid's low EMS introduction?

Shepard certainly didn't. If you're refering to the low EMS introduction the kid could be refering to why Shepard is on the Citadel in general, not that exact spot.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:51 .