711 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Yeah, well, if I'm going to destroy, when I get to Rannoch, there's no Geth leaving Rannoch because it's a pro-Geth propaganda show by the writers that I can see through... okay I'm metagaming this. The Virtual Aliens? Well no one ever told Shepard about them. I didn't find out about them until someone pointed them out on the board and I looked it up in the Wikia. So in Shepard's mind there's nothing left except EDI. And Shepard's gonna die anyway. So pffft.

Just get Tali killed in ME2. Problem solved with no metagaming. The geth are exterminated and it's all those evil quarians' fault.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 décembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[Killdren88]

I see it as Justice. You can say you can't judge the Reapers by our standards because "They are infinitely our greater" but I say no. They are responsible for genocide on a incalculable scale. Guilty of every war crime we have. They deserve no mercy. Not the galactic equivalent of community service where they just clean up their mess. They deserve death Nothing more. Nothing Less.

[trenq]

Quarians will get out of their suits eventually, just not as fast. I usually destroy Geth so I don't lose much, happy ending.

[KaiserShep]

Killdren88 wrote...

I see it as Justice. You can say you can't judge the Reapers by our standards because "They are infinitely our greater" but I say no. They are responsible for genocide on a incalculable scale. Guilty of every war crime we have. They deserve no mercy. Not the galactic equivalent of community service where they just clean up their mess. They deserve death Nothing more. Nothing Less.

Well, to be fair, only Harbinger really says all that stuff about being infinitely our greater, but after talking to the Catalyst, and finding out exactly what the reapers are and the nature of their existence, that's about as far from the truth as you could get.

[ImperatorMortis]

 

I can't get into the Destroyer mindset

Thats because you're weak.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 13 décembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[KaiserShep]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

 

I can't get into the Destroyer mindset

Thats because you're weak.

I think this sends the message better.

[SporkFu]

Hazegurl wrote...

SporkFu wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Synthetics can be rebuilt. At least with a peaceful option on Rannoch Quarians may feel better about rebuilding the Geth and not blasting them to hell just for asking questions.

Can't be certain things would turn out the same with new synthetics. What if the Geth mk 2 aren't content to boot the Quarians off Rannoch and withdraw behind the Perseus Veil this time? Maybe the galaxy will end up with Skynet or the Matrix or worse. 
 
My guess is Quarians wouldn't want anything to do creating another A.I., not after what happened last time. Or, if they did, I also believe that another race, or races, would go to war to prevent them from doing it.

Xen will be getting to work on those Geth bodies shortly. I have no doubt. Plus with the relays destroyed and needing to be rebuilt along with the planets I doubt anyone would start a war with the Quarians anytime soon. I'm sure they'll have plenty of time to fix up their planet and the Geth. Especially with the knowledge of knowing that the Geth could get them out of their suits faster.

I admit I can't outright say that the Geth would not attack. The new Geth may decide that they would rather kill all the Quarians and keep Rannoch for themselves. But there is also the possibility that they would not and just like the original Geth, Whether or not they attack will lie solely on the shoulders of the Quarian's actions.

Except that Geth don't have bodies. It's not about rebuilding the hardware, it's about recreating a 300 year old experiment.  And after a devastating war with the reapers, and their own history with the geth, I think there will be a lot of quarians hesitant to re-open Pandora's box. Xen will no doubt be arguing in favour of re-creating the geth, but she may not have as much support as she thinks.

Now that I think about it, I bet it will be the salarians who create AI, and they won't tell anybody.

[ElSuperGecko]

KaiserShep wrote...
Well, to be fair, only Harbinger really says all that stuff about being infinitely our greater, but after talking to the Catalyst, and finding out exactly what the reapers are and the nature of their existence, that's about as far from the truth as you could get.

Actually, Sovereign comes out with even more "we surpass you in every conceivable way" quotes than Harbinger does, and even the Rannoch Reaper adopts a supercilious attitude when addressing us.  "it is not a thing you can comprehend".  No kidding.

But the Catalyst is the worst.  Everything it says is an appeal to authority, and that authority is (who else?) itself.  It doesn't even consider the idea that it's own reasoning may be faulty or flawed - and it clearly is, because it doesn't take the inherent nature of organics into account when considering it's "problem" or determining it's "solutions".

"I think we'd prefer to keep our own forms"

"No.  You can't."  (in other words - don't be ridiculous!  That's not part of my solution!)

In fact, you can run through the entire Catalyst conversation alongside a list of fallacies and tick off pretty much everything it says.  False authority, circular reasoning, begging the question, equivocation, false dilemma... the list goes on.  It cannot see past it's own inherently flawed logic, and so it will not accept argument.

[KaiserShep]

There's probably no other point in the dialogue with the Catalyst that I find more maddening than when it says "No. You can't." If I wasn't so convinced that I was going to eradicate it no matter what, that would definitely have been the tipping point.

[ElSuperGecko]

KaiserShep wrote...
There's probably no other point in the dialogue with the Catalyst that I find more maddening than when it says "No. You can't." If I wasn't so convinced that I was going to eradicate it no matter what, that would definitely have been the tipping point.

Absolutely - at that point, it sounds exactly as it looks, like some petulant kid that simply MUST have it's own way.

[Tron Mega]

elsupergecko, that synthesis banner is gonna make me vomit.

[Wayning_Star]

yeah, OP, it's just that the laws of evolution in the MEU demands another look at the possibility that organics who build machines to "better" themselves are those machines in the end. The destroy choice is obvious, so it's not canon, if any.

(in their way, all choices are canon, some just work better than others... this, however, doesn't alter the fact that synthesis is just another form of evolution in action. The quandary being who exactly is advancing in their perspective evolution and why..lol )

[ElSuperGecko]

Tron Mega wrote...
elsupergecko, that synthesis banner is gonna make me vomit.

Yeah, that's how Synthesis makes me feel too.  I personally can't consider Synthesis without thinking of the Eden Prime Beacon vision, and the fate of the Protheans.

"We have tried a... similar solution before".

No kidding.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Because dead robo cuttlefish are much less dangerous than living robo cuttlefish?

Things usually go to sh*t when someone becomes an immortal mechanical god emperor?

Self-determination is incredibly awesome?

None of that seems difficult to understand.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:12 .

[Wayning_Star]

confusing harvests with synthesis again.. propaganda posters and all.

[KaiserShep]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Tron Mega wrote...
elsupergecko, that synthesis banner is gonna make me vomit.

Yeah, that's how Synthesis makes me feel too.  I personally can't consider Synthesis without thinking of the Eden Prime Beacon vision, and the fate of the Protheans.

"We have tried a... similar solution before".

No kidding.

"It is not something that can be...forced."

"But if I do it now, wouldn't I be forcing it?"

"Just jump in the beam."

"No."

[Wayning_Star]

take responsibility for creating the catalyst/techno deity...

nah...

[shodiswe]

crimzontearz wrote...

Simple, start from the preamble that the catalyst, while still admitting the power is in your hands, CANNOT BE TRUSTED and thus will try to steer you toward what he wants you to do
There is NO guarantee of how much of Shepard will be kept once he takes control or how long before this new AI goes bat**** insane like the bratalyst and starts harvesting again.

So Shepard takes the safest option which the star bract actively tries to dissuade him from....Destroy

It's a matter of "which one is the safest option" (and to me which option allows me me to have Shepard reunited with his LI)

The idea of, "CANNOT BE TRUSTED" doesn't help or support Destroy. I'm glad that the EC added the line where Shepard asks why he/she should trust it.
At least, Shepard is askign the obvious question, but the answer is jsut as obvious. What choice have you got?

If the Catalyst can't be trusted, it's lying or deceiving, then the destroy option it tells Shepard of might actualy be a trap. It might just be a way of "Hey, blow up that power conduit! I know you want to! (That should kill Shepard once and for all and I can get back to my harvest)

Either the Catalyst is Lying and you are screwed no matter what, or you got a choice and it's allowing it.
Personaly, I think Destroy is the worst choice, it promises nothing, accomplishes little and causes lots of harm.

The only choice that's worse is Refuse, which is Shepard saying. I'm not playing this game with you. Do your thing we will die fighting, even if that means we all die. And then they all die.

In the end, you are playing this game with the Catalyst because it holds all the balls, it controls the game. It has however, allowed you to join the game, it nolonger care which you pick, because it belives all choices will lead to Synthesis. The galaxy is ready and has advanced to the point where it will happen wether Shepard picks it or if people salvage it from the Reapers and Cerberus projects. Shepard is the union of Organic and synthetic.
Pandoras box is open. Now choose.

Destroy is available because you trust the Catalyst enough not to refuse, and because you are desperate enough to grasp at straws. Trust isn't an issue. meaning, the other chocies are there aswell.

[Wayning_Star]

can a machine do stuff it doesn't know?

[ElSuperGecko]

KaiserShep wrote...
"It is not something that can be...forced."

"But if I do it now, wouldn't I be forcing it?"

"Just jump in the beam."

"No."

"It is the ideal solution."

Ideal?  For who, exactly?  Is the "problem" the Catalyst describes truly inevitable?  Do we have any evidence of that (other than the cycle of extinction itself, and the anecdotal evidence the Catalyst itself describes?)  Is the Catalyst's problem even our problem to begin with?  Or is our problem simply the giant killer space cuttlefish currently blowing seven shades out of all our friends and allies as we waste time being chatted up by Casper the (un)friendly ghost?

shodiswe wrote...
The idea of, "CANNOT BE TRUSTED" doesn't help or support Destroy...

Not strictly true.  The Catalyst can be telling the truth throughout the conversation, but that doesn't mean it is right.  It doesn't mean it cannot make mistakes.  It doesn't mean it's logic is perfect.  And it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own preferences, it's own motives and it's own goals - which may or may not be the same as our own.

The Catalyst is playing favourites.  It's biased.  It's leading Shepard in a particular direction.  Facts.  All of them.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[Wayning_Star]

@ESG

we have the destroy choice.. proves the catalyst correct. Strange that...

[wright1978]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
"It is not something that can be...forced."

"But if I do it now, wouldn't I be forcing it?"

"Just jump in the beam."

"No."

"It is the ideal solution."

Ideal?  For who, exactly?  Is the "problem" the Catalyst describes truly inevitable?  Do we have any evidence of that (other than the cycle of extinction itself, and the anecdotal evidence the Catalyst itself describes?)  Is the Catalyst's problem even our problem to begin with?  Or is our problem simply the giant killer space cuttlefish currently blowing seven shades out of all our friends and allies as we waste time being chatted up by Casper the (un)friendly ghost?

The Catalyst is playing favourites.  It's biased.  It's leading Shepard in a particular direction.  Facts.  All of them.

Yep the catalyst is no scientist, it is constantly interferring to rig the results to fit its idealogical extremist views.

[Wayning_Star]

the organic leviathan "crafted" the Catalyst... not the other way around. The cat has no ego..sorry.

[ElSuperGecko]

wright1978 wrote...
Yep the catalyst is no scientist, it is constantly interferring to rig the results to fit its idealogical extremist views

Hence the birth of the entire  "Creating synthetics to kill organics so organics can't create synthetics that will kill organics" meme.

Not only that, but quite a large percentage of what the Catalyst tells us is in one way or another a flawed argument.  Red herring - check.  Appeal to authority (itself)  - check.  Appeal to emotion - check.  Existential fallacy - check.  Argument from ignorance - check.  Begging the question - check.  Circular reasoning - check.  Equivocation, false dilemma, loaded question, false attribution - the list goes on and on.

That's pretty impressive when it has less than ten minutes of actual dialogue.

[Wayning_Star]

actually it's not the catalyst so much as organic 'justifacationisms'..lol


edit: when in doubt: rationalize

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:42 .