711 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathsaurer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Destroy and Control fit with the context of the game. Synthesis came out of nowhere. The idea was nice and all, but it really didn't fit in the end IMO. It's like they wanted to give a third option for the sake of having one.

I agree that in the Deus Ex series synthesis theme fits nicely, and I choose that theme in that story.

I wouldn't say it doesn't fit the game, we do have stuff like Shepard's cybernetics and EDI's chat about transhumanism. The Crucible being able to do it and the way it does it is out of left field. If it had been handled better it could have worked fine.

[oOmpie]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

The whole "do you believe the space kid?" thing is not about the factual statements that it makes, but the predictive elements of its speech and the AIs interpretation of truth. You need to think like a machine to understand a machine.

So basically you're arguing that an AI representing the collective consciousness of all species it has harvested can not comprehend organics but you (or your Shepard) has no problem thinking like and understanding that machine?
Right.....

[Obadiah]

This one time that Liara was the LI, I remembered the conversation with her about the blue babies in the Decision Chamber I just thought, "I cannot tolerate our children living under the threat of these things. Its just too big a risk." Here's the general mindset my Shepard's have when picking an ending:

Destroy - Fight for your people
Control - Fight for the galaxy
Synthesis - Fight for life itself
Refuse - Fight for ideals, or way of life (never done that)

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KaiserShep wrote...

And also, Shepard couldn't possibly be sent off to space Hague for the eradication of the geth, because when it comes right down to it, it wasn't like the rachni queen decision where Shepard could choose to just flood a chamber with acid while it was in captivity. The quarians and geth were actively fighting each other in orbit, and it came down to whether or not he/she could talk the quarians down while the geth were released from reaper control. I mean, what's the prosecution going to say? "Did you or did you not have enough reputation points to persuade the quarians into standing down?" Being unable to mediate between two warring fleets from the ground doesn't strike me as a good enough reason to press charges.

Shepard didn't design or build the Crucible and had no knowledge of its function going into it. What is he supposed to do, let the galaxy be destroyed to avoid being responsible for destroying the Geth? Violate every living thing in the galaxy? Or crown himself as the new eternal galactic dictator?

I don't see how a Shepard who survives Destroy could reasonably be brought up on charges.

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
 If the geth were destroyed at Rannoch you could maybe bring Shepard to trial.

The Geth VI was less than amicable to cooperation. Somehow I don't see Shepard being brought up on charges because he refused to permit it to commit genocide (again), as was its stated intent.

I meant bring him in for his actions at the Crucible if he doesn't pick Destroy. With the geth gone Destroy isn't genocide, and so ordering it would be a legitimate order. (All hypothetical since Synth Sheps are vaporized and the Sheplyst isn't exactly within Alliance jurisdiction.)

One of the oddities at Rannoch is that Shepard can only talk the quarians down; he can't attempt to talk the empowered geth into, say, blowing up the quarian Heavy and Patrol Fleets and then accepting a surrender of the civilians. I can see a kind of logic in the geth position --it's not really different from the pro-Destroy arguments we see here -- but I'd have liked Shepard to be able to make the attempt.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 décembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[KaiserShep]

Pretty much. Even if the galaxy knew full well what the options were, you know they're just going to go along with this and accept the decision, because in the end, they're still alive because of it. There's no use being a moralizing ingrate.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 décembre 2013 - 06:49 .

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
 If the geth were destroyed at Rannoch you could maybe bring Shepard to trial.

The Geth VI was less than amicable to cooperation. Somehow I don't see Shepard being brought up on charges because he refused to permit it to commit genocide (again), as was its stated intent.

I meant bring him in for his actions at the Crucible. With the geth gone Destroy isn't genocide, and so ordering it would be a legitimate order.

One of the oddities at Rannoch is that Shepard can only talk the quarians down; he can't attempt to talk the empowered geth into, say, blowing up the quarian Heavy and Patrol Fleets and then accepting a surrender of the civilians. I can see a kind of logic in the geth position --it's not really different from the pro-Destroy arguments we see here -- but I'd have liked Shepard to be able to make the attempt.

In the only circumstance where the Quarian fleet is destroyed, Shepard encourages the upload and doesn't even inform them it's taking place. For all they know another Reaper backup kicked in, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't have spared them anyway. I'd have liked to talk the Geth out of using the Reaper code at all. Even if I trusted the Geth at my back (said trust is tenuous at best), I have zero reason to trust that code.

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

In the only circumstance where the Quarian fleet is destroyed, Shepard encourages the upload and doesn't even inform them it's taking place.

Wouldn't Tali or Raan tell them sbout the upgrade? They're in communication. I assumed the quarians knew and were just hoping they could win before the upgrade took effect. Dunno if the Darwin Award goes to Han'Gerrel or to Tali or Raan for not making the situation clear to him.

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

In the only circumstance where the Quarian fleet is destroyed, Shepard encourages the upload and doesn't even inform them it's taking place.

Wouldn't Tali or Raan tell them sbout the upgrade? They're in communication. I assumed the quarians knew and were just hoping they could win before the upgrade took effect. Dunno if the Darwin Award goes to Han'Gerrel or to Tali or Raan for not making the situation clear to him.

Tali only says "break off your attack" without explaining the situation and spends the rest of the time begging Shepard to spare them. In the leaked script, she tries to stop Legion while Shepard just stands there watching her get beat up, and Squadmate #2 is... I don't know, off smoking a blunt or something. Shepard is the only one who tells them about the upload itself.

I've never played with Raan only, but IIRC she doesn't even contact the fleet and just stands there while the code is uploaded.

The writing in that sequence is so very very bad... 

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 décembre 2013 - 07:19 .

[AlanC9]

Darwin Award goes to Tali, then. (Sounds like this is one of the cases where the leaked script was worse)

I think you're right about Raan. Either she communicates with the fleet off-camera, or she thinks it's hopeless and doesn't bother.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

Pretty much. Even if the galaxy knew full well what the options were, you know they're just going to go along with this and accept the decision, because in the end, they're still alive because of it. There's no use being a moralizing ingrate.

Yeah, people are quite content to cheer when the Reapers retreat in high EMS Control. The average person doesn't care how they're stopped, just that they are stopped.

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

Darwin Award goes to Tali, then. (Sounds like this is one of the cases where the leaked script was worse)

I think you're right about Raan. Either she communicates with the fleet off-camera, or she thinks it's hopeless and doesn't bother.

The writing with Raan is too stupid to warrant serious consideration (The Shepard decided to kill us? Oh, OK, no need to warn the fleet or anything *shoots herself*.). Either way, if a species dies above Rannoch the responsibility lies squarely at Shepard's feet. Peace without Reaper code would have been my preferred solution, coupled with at least some acknowledgement on the Geth's part of their culpability for this ongoing conflict. The whole "sweep the mountain of corpses under the rug and slap on Bambi eyes" gambit didn't impress me much.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 décembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Deathsaurer]

You'd need to kill Han'Gerrel to make peace without the Reaper code. Legion has always admitted the Geth did great harm to the Quarians.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

You'd need to kill Han'Gerrel to make peace without the Reaper code. Legion has always admitted the Geth did great harm to the Quarians.

ME3 does its best to avoid any mention that it happened at all. You can get both sides of the history of the Krogan rebellion by talking to Victus, but all you get out of Raan is fleet composition - no history, no perspective, nothing to counterbalance the half-hour slideshow of Self-Sacrificing Geth Throughout History that we're subject to in the consensus. You're right that Legion doesn't outright deny that it happened, but I wanted to hear some acknowledgement that they were wrong to kill as many as they did, that they put themselves in this situation by isolating themselves and allowing the heretic attacks to continue for years without denouncing them (the heretics are barely mentioned at all). The Quarians at least acknowledge their own fault in the conflict. It would have necessitated more of a "redeemer" role for the Geth in ME3, but I'm sure it could have been done.

This is mostly problematic because "ME3 is the best place to start the series." I'd rather both sides made their strongest cases in the final chapter, that the focus be on making both sides recognize each other, rather than incessantly painting the Geth as victims. I knew where the arc was going to go the moment I heard Xen making those softball arguments for war in ME3 when stronger arguments were made in ME2.

Getting off-topic here; that's just my take on it.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 décembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Deathsaurer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Destroy and Control fit with the context of the game. Synthesis came out of nowhere. The idea was nice and all, but it really didn't fit in the end IMO. It's like they wanted to give a third option for the sake of having one.

I agree that in the Deus Ex series synthesis theme fits nicely, and I choose that theme in that story.

I wouldn't say it doesn't fit the game, we do have stuff like Shepard's cybernetics and EDI's chat about transhumanism. The Crucible being able to do it and the way it does it is out of left field. If it had been handled better it could have worked fine.

Transhumanism and progress are one thing. Full out synthesis like in Mass Effect is something entirely different - it irradicates all organic and synthetic life turning them into something synthetic. The catalyst said. "It is something that cannot be forced," and it's doing just that. Needing to be handled better is an understatement. Shepard's cybernetics and EDI's chat about transhumanism is not enough foreshadowing for something of this magnitude. They added way too much mysticism and handwavium to the whole thing. 

[Hazegurl]

shodiswe wrote...
Once you make peace with the Geth one way or another, then you have a solution, least a temporary one and you have managed to create an understanding.
However, after they have all been destroyed and you create new Geth, who never made peace, never waged war, never anything... Then they are no longer Geth. They are but a faint shadow of what the Geth were.
They never lived that life, it's unknown to them, except for reading or downloading other peoples history and accountings of this previous generation of Synthetic lifeforms that was annihilated by Organics.

I understand that. My point is that the Quarians won't be so quick to make the same mistakes as before if they are rebuilt, and I believe they will be because the Quarians know how useful they are.  I highly doubt they would never rebuild the Geth. Don't buy it. Even if a player sides with the Quarians and wipe out the Geth, I am sure they would still end up rebuilding the Geth in the future. I consider it an inevitable conclusion. I just think they wouldn't be so quick to pew pew them to death for asking questions if peace is selected. That's my speculation. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

You'd need to kill Han'Gerrel to make peace without the Reaper code. Legion has always admitted the Geth did great harm to the Quarians.

ME3 does its best to avoid any mention that it happened at all. You can get both sides of the history of the Krogan rebellion by talking to Victus, but all you get out of Raan is fleet composition - no history, no perspective, nothing to counterbalance the half-hour slideshow of Self-Sacrificing Geth Throughout History that we're subject to in the consensus. I wanted to hear some acknowledgement that they were wrong to kill as many as they did, that they put themselves in this situation by isolating themselves and allowing the heretic attacks to continue for years without denouncing them (the heretics are barely mentioned at all). The Quarians at least acknowledge their own fault in the conflict. It would have necessitated more of a "redeemer" role for the Geth in ME3, but I'm sure it could have been done.

This is mostly problematic because "ME3 is the best place to start the series." I'd rather both sides made their strongest cases in the final chapter, that the focus be on making both sides recognize each other, rather than incessantly painting the Geth as victims. I knew where the arc was going to go the moment I heard Xen making those softball arguments for war in ME3 when stronger arguments were made in ME2.

Getting off-topic here; that's just my take on it.

Well one of the writers working on the plot called Tali racist, so after I read that I can understand why the plot went down like it did. You weren't supposed to feel good in the end. You were supposed to have mixed feelings at the end of the game. "To save my allies I had to let the reapers live." "To destroy the reapers I had to destroy my allies." Or you were supposed to try to make peace between the Quarians and Geth, and if you do on a "it's a good place to start" you will fail and the Geth will win, and who wants to reload and fight that reaper again after you spent an hour beating it? We know boss fights always happen at 2:15 am. 

[Hazegurl]

oOmpie wrote...

I can't believe how many people preaching for Destroy bring in the "do you believe space kid???" argument while at the same time believing it when it says red will destroy the Reapers.
When you take that leap of faith, none of the other options are much further down the road...

I agree. I believe the starkid is lying through his teeth. Seriously, shooting at a tube and destroying it will kill the reapers??? So basically destroying a part of the Crucible is destroying the Reapers? I find it just as dumb as melt yourself into space goo to become immortal or merge with a collective. Hm, sounds a lot like how a Reaper is born.

I admit that the only logical option to take if you don't believe the star kid is refuse. But to not even do anything after refusing is just as bad as the rest of the choices. I pretty much have no choice but to...install MEHEM.

[Deathsaurer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
ME3 does its best to avoid any mention that it happened at all. You can get both sides of the history of the Krogan rebellion by talking to Victus, but all you get out of Raan is fleet composition - no history, no perspective, nothing to counterbalance the half-hour slideshow of Self-Sacrificing Geth Throughout History that we're subject to in the consensus. You're right that Legion doesn't outright deny that it happened, but I wanted to hear some acknowledgement that they were wrong to kill as many as they did, that they put themselves in this situation by isolating themselves and allowing the heretic attacks to continue for years without denouncing them (the heretics are barely mentioned at all). The Quarians at least acknowledge their own fault in the conflict. It would have necessitated more of a "redeemer" role for the Geth in ME3, but I'm sure it could have been done.

Pretty sure Legion says the war has taken a great toll on the Quarians and that he regretted their deaths. He's never shied away from admitting the Geth did a great deal of damage to them. I do agree not addressing the Geth's isolation is a missed opportunity because it would necesitate exploring the Council's anti AI laws along the way.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well one of the writers working on the plot called Tali racist, so after I read that I can understand why the plot went down like it did. You weren't supposed to feel good in the end. You were supposed to have mixed feelings at the end of the game. "To save my allies I had to let the reapers live." "To destroy the reapers I had to destroy my allies." Or you were supposed to try to make peace between the Quarians and Geth, and if you do on a "it's a good place to start" you will fail and the Geth will win, and who wants to reload and fight that reaper again after you spent an hour beating it? We know boss fights always happen at 2:15 am. 

I think you're right about the design intent. But I think the three Primes are a lot tougher than the Reaper.

[KaiserShep]

AlanC9 wrote...
I think you're right about the design intent. But I think the three Primes are a lot tougher than the Reaper.

On insanity, 3 Primes become 6 enemies, because those damn drones are a pain in themselves, and keep spawning so long as the prime that runs it is still active.

[ElSuperGecko]

Hazegurl wrote...
I agree. I believe the starkid is lying through his teeth. Seriously, shooting at a tube and destroying it will kill the reapers??? So basically destroying a part of the Crucible is destroying the Reapers? I find it just as dumb as melt yourself into space goo to become immortal or merge with a collective. Hm, sounds a lot like how a Reaper is born.

Fortunately, we're not destroying part of the Crucible when we shoot the tube.  Because that scene takes place on the Citadel, not the Crucible.

As to why shooting the tube Destroys the Reapers - it doesn't, the Crucible does.  Well, OK, so it's not explicitly stated in game, but a simple bit of thinking is enough.  The tube could be part of a mechanism that is preventing the Crucible from firing.  Or it could be connected to the AI's memory core.

[Village_Idiot]

I choose it as the lesser of three sickening evils. No more, no less.