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[Reorte]

SR72 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Destroy and Control fit with the context of the game. Synthesis came out of nowhere.

No it doesn't. This is what Saren has wanted since the first game. Also, Harbinger. To merge organics and Reapers together. Not every choice presented will be in Shepard's favor. Certain choices will favor Reapers.

There's a whole massive numbers of magnitudes difference between sticking some pieces of hardware inside someone and whatever the hell it is that Synthesis does so no, it isn't foreshadowed.

[rekn2]

control to me would just devolve the universe into a police state

[KaiserShep]

In renegade control, that's exactly how it starts.

[Reorte]

SR72 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

There's a whole massive numbers of magnitudes difference between sticking some pieces of hardware inside someone and whatever the hell it is that Synthesis does so no, it isn't foreshadowed.

You should read the Final Hours App. It goes into detail what Synthesis is. Simply put, you're not making half-human half-machine type things. You are merging humans with Reaper DNA. Similar to how Saren was implanted with Reaper DNA.

Reaper DNA? It seriously claims that? And even if you accept that, which is completely at odds with what the Reapers are portrayed as being, the idea that you can just merge DNA and get something with glowy lines appearing on it really, really means these people need to go back to school. It makes about as much sense as saying that petrol is car DNA and that you could run off at 100 mph if you drink some.

All Saren was implanted with as far as the game implies are lots of cybernetics.

[Village_Idiot]

To be honest, the scientific mumbo-jumbo of Synthesis isn't what bothers me, it's no more implausible than the other two ways in which the Crucible can be used.

My issue is more that the organic vs. synthetic theme was never central to ME3. It was explored and forms an interesting part of the universe and narrative throughout the trilogy, albeit somewhat inconsistently (ME1 practically writes AI off as a crapshoot, whereas ME2 and 3 took a more open-minded approach). In most aspects though, it was more of an examination of the differences between the two, and how misunderstanding and prejudice bred conflict rather than something more fundamental. Hence why merging of the two being presented as some kind of ultimate solution seems to come completely out of nowhere.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 15 décembre 2013 - 10:53 .

[KaiserShep]

Heck I always saw control as a major theme. Everyone from the reapers to the protheans to the asari and salarians imposed themselves on whole populations, mostly with disastrous results.

[Village_Idiot]

SR72 wrote...

Everyone has different ideas on what the themes are. 

Agreed, it's entirely subjective. As I said though, it's more that the organic/synthetic theme was approached with a mindset of exploring the differences between the two and asking whether they can co-exist, rather than seeing homogenising the two as a solution, or evolutionary destiny as it were.

In many ways, Destroy and Synthesis are more thematically related in this regard, seeing as one sees synthetics exterminated in favour of organics, and the other sees them merged with organics. In this regard however, it begs where exactly Control fits in. Finding a uniting theme to the endings beyond "they all stop the Reaper threat" is somewhat difficult.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 15 décembre 2013 - 11:17 .

[AlanC9]

SR72 wrote...
As for the Crucible, it was subtlety hinted that the Reapers may have came up with the plans for it (when talking to TIM about it, Shepard states "The Reapers built the relays, it's all part of the same trap").

Really? Which convo? I've never heard that line myself

They gave you the plans, you build the device, and they actually have the ability to destroy you and the entire galaxy with it. Of course, the destroy option is the only real choice which essentially ends the conflict with the Reapers. The other choices allow the Reapers to still exist and continue their harvest in addition to enslave everyone who can't be harvested (see codex). It's sort of set up like a final test. The word Crucible actually means a severe test or trial. This is Shepard's final test at the end. Either destroy the Reapers, or they destroy you. You essentially put everything you've been working your butt off for the last 5 years on the line. If you wake up on Earth, all that gets kept intact. Otherwise, you lose everything. It's an all or nothing situation. 

Why would they put in a Destroy option? Why would they shoot at it and risk making Destroy the only possible outcome? Why am I taking you seriously?

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 décembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[KaiserShep]

There's no hint that the reapers designed it. They were actively trying to destroy it.

[Sir DeLoria]

I thought the Leviathan came up with the Crucible:huh:

[JedTed]

Question: How many Destroyers out there don't trust the Catalyst, yet trust Legion when he presents you the choice to destroy/rewrite the Heretics? For the record i always choose destroy because brainwashing(even of synthetics) is immoral however the situation is similar. You have a synthetic lifeform presenting you with a choice that affects an entire race which could have completely unforeseen outcomes.

The point is, the Catalyst doesn't deserve any more trust than Legion in ME2. Also, the Catalyst has "studied" organics for a lot longer than Legion and the geth have.

[Reorte]

SR72 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Reaper DNA? It seriously claims that? And even if you accept that, which is completely at odds with what the Reapers are portrayed as being, 

If this is the first time of you hearing this, I take it you didn't read it?

Not at all. Reapers are not synthetic life forms. They are a hybrid of organic and synthetic life. 

Harbinger mentions: We will bring your species into harmony with our own. This is essentially what synthesis is.

Yes, ME2 says they're a hybrid, but the idea of "Reaper DNA" is still stupid since the organic part of them comes from mulching down other species. There's no such thing as Reaper DNA. They're still synthetic though, since "synthetic" basically means "artificial" not "electronic".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I always destroy the Heretics rather than rewrite them because we have a job to do. I don't even think of any moral ramifications. All I know is that we've got a s***load of platforms, ships, and programs that have been shooting at us for three years in all in one nice neat little place. Boom b**ches!

[Reorte]

JedTed wrote...

The point is, the Catalyst doesn't deserve any more trust than Legion in ME2. Also, the Catalyst has "studied" organics for a lot longer than Legion and the geth have.

I don't see why that's the case at all. Whilst I might not fully trust Legion at first in my first meeting he actively saves Shepard, and takes time to rationally explain his position. The Catalyst does none of that and is claiming to be the head of an enemy actively trying to annhialate us. There's no sign whatsoever of them having been on the receiving end of anything, unlike the geth.

No matter how long it's studied it completely fails to demonstrate that it's learned anything from that study..

Anyway, trusting the Catalyst has been covered extensively, and no-one does much.

[ElSuperGecko]

JedTed wrote...
Also, the Catalyst has "studied" organics for a lot longer than Legion and the geth have.

For "studied", read "murdered by the billions".  And despite all that "studying", it still doesn't have the slightest understanding or comprehension of organic life.  And if it doesn't understand life, how we possibly accept it's "ideal solutions" for life?

[ImaginaryMatter]

JedTed wrote...

Question: How many Destroyers out there don't trust the Catalyst, yet trust Legion when he presents you the choice to destroy/rewrite the Heretics? For the record i always choose destroy because brainwashing(even of synthetics) is immoral however the situation is similar. You have a synthetic lifeform presenting you with a choice that affects an entire race which could have completely unforeseen outcomes.

The point is, the Catalyst doesn't deserve any more trust than Legion in ME2. Also, the Catalyst has "studied" organics for a lot longer than Legion and the geth have.

Trusting Legion at the end of his Loyalty mission is waaayyyy different than trusting the Catalyst. Shepard actually had the chance to talk to and fight with Legion before the Heretic base; also the mechanics for the Heretic base decision are actually known by Shepard.

The Catalyst conversation; however, plays out with some entity claiming he is in control of the Reapers, then spouts out something about how wrong Shepard is, then offers three random choices that all result in Shepard dying; it's all really suspicious.

[ImaginaryMatter]

SR72 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Reaper DNA? It seriously claims that? And even if you accept that, which is completely at odds with what the Reapers are portrayed as being, 

If this is the first time of you hearing this, I take it you didn't read it?

Not at all. Reapers are not synthetic life forms. They are a hybrid of organic and synthetic life. 

Harbinger mentions: We will bring your species into harmony with our own. This is essentially what synthesis is.

Harbinger's quotes could mean any number of things. Also the Reaper smoothie is mechanincally much different that synthesis is, or at least what is known about it.

[zed888]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Trusting Legion at the end of his Loyalty mission is waaayyyy different than trusting the Catalyst. Shepard actually had the chance to talk to and fight with Legion before the Heretic base; also the mechanics for the Heretic base decision are actually known by Shepard.

The Catalyst conversation; however, plays out with some entity claiming he is in control of the Reapers, then spouts out something about how wrong Shepard is, then offers three random choices that all result in Shepard dying; it's all really suspicious.

 Not to mention the fact that the entity takes the form of a character from Shepard's recurring nightmare.

Modifié par zed888, 16 décembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[KaiserShep]

zed888 wrote...
 Not to mention the fact that the entity takes the form of a character from Shepard's recurring nightmare.

And Shepard never once gets to comment on this. Throughout the series, the player is given the option to have Shepard comment on something uncanny or odd, and this would definitely qualify. Sure, we can assume that Shepard would automatically assume that thing is just reading through Shepard's thoughts and rolls with it, but that would be garbage.In this scenario, the first thing that would run through my mind is "Did you sift through my thoughts to take the image of something I can sympathize with?" I would see this as an obvious tactic to throw me off,and would of course only lead me to become less inclined to care about anything beyond learning how to rid the galaxy of it and its puppets
forever.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 décembre 2013 - 05:05 .

[fr33stylez]

Wait, you created a Shepard from with the distant hope that in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy, a glowing boy AI would magically appear to give you the option to control Reapers and/or turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

zed888 wrote...
 Not to mention the fact that the entity takes the form of a character from Shepard's recurring nightmare.

And Shepard never once gets to comment on this. Throughout the series, the player is given the option to have Shepard comment on something uncanny or odd, and this would definitely qualify. Sure, we can assume that Shepard would automatically assume that thing is just reading through Shepard's thoughts and rolls with it, but that would be garbage. In this scenario, the first thing that would run through my mind is "Did you sift through my thoughts to take the image of something I can sympathize with?" I would see this as an obvious tactic to throw me off, and would of course only lead me to become less inclined to care about anything beyond learning how to rid the galaxy of it and its puppets forever.

And when I saw the kid at the end, I was like... "wait, he looks just like the kid in my dreams." And the second he said "Perhaps, I control the reapers. They are my solution."

I thought, "You die."

Spectres get the job done, no matter the cost. It's in the job description.