61 réponses à ce sujet

[Vulpe]

What do we know about dragons? They are huge, dangerous, fire breathing creatures (the females) that scourge the lands prior to the mating season so that they will have enough energy to produce the eggs and after that to prepare for a long hibernation.We also know that their blood is very potent in magic and its ingestion can give to and individual superhuman powers, transforming him into a reaver.

Now, what do we know about lyrium? It’s one, if not the most, valuable resource in Thedas. It’s a source of magic energy for mages, the substance that templars ingest to get their dispelling powers, it is used by the dwarves in their archives, in making runes, it was used to create golems in the ancient times.

Now I will bring forth a theory that might connect the two more than you would have expected and explains why lyrium can be found only underground, why the Old Gods are sleeping, why they call the darkspawn and that might also explain why lyrium, as the Old Gods calling, seems able to sing to certain beings.



As you can see, some of those eggs are pretty huge. Some of them are not even eggs. Yavana states that “ when dragon were nearly extinguished from this world, the builders of the temple called to the few that remained. The dragons that came here would rest for generation – until awakened by power “.Remembers that she doesn’t states if the dragons that came were adults, babies, high dragon or drakes. Most likely a combination of all the previous mentioned cases.

Notice how all the eggs seem to be crystals.Until we see how the dragon eggs will look in DA:I, we can make  the following assumptions:

1 ) All dragon eggs are like that and they are able to make an egg like cocoon when hibernating

2) Their eggs are similar to the ones of birds and reptiles and they have two hibernating methods : the short one that everyone knows about and this one in which they put themselves in a cocoon like crystal egg to preserve themselves for longer periods of time.


Let’s talk a little about where dragons make their nest. We know for sure that they prefer underground places. We’ve seen this in DA:O, in the Sacred Ashes quest chain, we’ve seen this in “The Calling” when the party meets a dragon underground and from the lore that states that they go underground to hibernate.

Now, let us get back to the picture. For certain you’ve noticed the crystalline eggs. Now look at the cracked one from the left. You can notice the crystal lumps located inside of it. Also notice the blue glow. I think you understand where I’m going. Now I’ll present my theories that connects the dragons, lyrium, the Old Gods, and the calling properties of lyrium and the Old Gods.

As seen in the comics, dragons seem to able to cocoon themselves in a blue crystalline egg.It is safe to assume that they could do this in any moment during their race existance . Now there are two possibilities (or a mix of them)  :

1) If a dragon dies during its sleep, the shell absorbs all the energy from its blood and, in time, transforms in lyrium

2) During their sleep, they absorb in the shell magical energy from The Fade. Why you might ask ?Well, dragons are magical creatures and  this process might help them survive even more without awakening. It might also make it possible that, if addressed by the right person or creature, they might be revived by using the energy that it’s stored in the shell. 


No matter the possibility, the shell continues to crystallize and to absorb energy from The Fade, reaching in time a concentration of magic so high that it becomes lyrium.Note that lyrium, as well as the shell, is blue, glowing and can be found only underground.

Now for the singing property of lyrium and the Old Gods. The shell might send a message that has the role of attracting individuals ( dragons or dragon blooded) that are able to awaken the comatose dragon inside of it, that is now helpless and if not awaken after a certain amount of time, it dies.

Yavana states that the dragons will sleep until awaken by power, more precisely, power located in dragon blood. This can be proved by the fact that she used the blood of Maric to awaken her dragoness.
As I said, dragon blooded individual, through the use of their blood and magic are able to awaken them, but I think that very powerful dragons – Old God or High Dragon powerful – might be able to awaken their sleeping bretheren.Note that Yavana calls her dragon "The Queen Of Dragons" and she states that Maric awoken her. It is safe to assume that she used her blood to awaken the other ones that still lived

It is just a defense mechanism that is retained in lyrium. Lyrium is infused with high amount of magic, thus the spirits can hear its song.( I believe that spirits hear the singing because of the high magic concentrations in lyrium and that they are unable to awaken the dragons)


As for the Old Gods, they might as well be in a comatose state inside such a shell. The darkspawn might be able to detect the Calling emanated by the magical nature of the shell and are attracted by its calling. Who would use this defense mechanism to locate the Old Gods ? Some of you might know my beliefs regarding the Old Gods and the nature of The Black City, but that is another story. Let’s say that the source of The Taint might have an interest in locating them.

In the end, as in the case of the Sandworms from Dune, these dangerous creatures might be the source of the most precious resource in Thedas.

IMPORTANT EDIT

I've watched again the part when Yavana embraces the egg.It was steamed and I though it is a skeleton. I was wrong. The dragon inside is stil alive, but sleeping 

Discuss 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 03:12 .

[thats1evildude]

Gentelmen, we have wormsign the likes of which the Maker has never seen.

I'm going to offer one counter-point: it's possible the crystal shells were "hibernation chambers" crafted by the architects of the Silent Grove.

[MisanthropePrime]

Haven't we seen dragon eggs back at the bone pit? Weren't they decidedly not crystalline? At the very least it would've been noted that the bone pit would've had a HUGE lyrium deposit if dragon eggs were lyrium.

[Vulpe]

thats1evildude wrote...

Gentelmen, we have wormsign the likes of which the Maker has never seen.

I'm going to offer one counter-point: it's possible the crystal shells were "hibernation chambers" crafted by the architects of the Silent Grove.

If it's so, they would have had one hell of a job:lol:. What I don't understant is the dragon blood lock. It's like making a chest and then throwing the key in the sea hoping someone will find it.

If the dragons didn't make this mechanism so that only their kind would awaken them, why would the keepers of the temple create such a lock ?

It prevents benevolent individuals like Yavana to awaken them from the comatose like state and it would endanger them because, if no dragon or dragon blooded individual can be found, they will all die.

As for the malevolent individuals - who would be insane to awaken so many dragons ?

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Haven't we seen dragon eggs back at the bone pit? Weren't they decidedly not crystalline? At the very least it would've been noted that the bone pit would've had a HUGE lyrium deposit if dragon eggs were lyrium.

I brought the egg part in discution in case they want to modify them. As I said, if the eggs are like the ones of birds and reptiles it would mean that the blue crystal eggs are only a type of cocoons the dragons can make at any moment during their life if they want to hibernate for very,very long periods.

They were hunted until extinction in the Steel Age. That would mean that the ones that sought shelter in The Silent Grove hibernated for 300 years.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 08:59 .

[thats1evildude]

JulianWellpit wrote...

What I don't understant is the dragon blood lock. It's like making a chest and then throwing the key in the sea hoping someone will find it.

If the dragons didn't make this mechanism so that only their kind would awaken them, why would the keepers of the temple create such a lock ?

Likely to ensure no one but the builders of the Silent Grove could awaken the dragons.

The only place I've seen dragon eggs was at Haven, and they just looked like regular giant eggs.

[Vulpe]

thats1evildude wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

What I don't understant is the dragon blood lock. It's like making a chest and then throwing the key in the sea hoping someone will find it.

If the dragons didn't make this mechanism so that only their kind would awaken them, why would the keepers of the temple create such a lock ?

Likely to ensure no one but the builders of the Silent Grove could awaken the dragons.

The only place I've seen dragon eggs was at Haven, and they just looked like regular giant eggs.

Still, it seems inpractical. That place was deserted so , if not for Yavana, the dragons would have died. Also, if the builders weren't dragon-blooded they couldn't awaken them so it's safe to asume that they were.If they knew so much about dragons, they should have thought that maybe they'll die and their lines will extinguish and then the dragons will follow them to the grave. It would have been a huge risk.

As for the eggs, I'll say it again. I brought up 2 possibilities - either both the eggs and the cocoon are like that ( in case they want to change it for DA:I) or the eggs are like we've seen them in the previous games and only the cocoons are crystal like.

EDIT

What I find interesting is that she states that "The Great Ones were always beyond my reach". I'm curious to which dragons she's referring - the new High Dragons or maybe some other old dragons that lie deep underneath the ground and people seem to hate them.

Nevermind. I think she was referring to the one from the giant cocoon egg that seemed to be a skeleton.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[Ieldra]

LOL. The lyrium must flow!

Seriously, I like this idea. While I think some details are a bit off, on the whole it creates a comprehensive ecology of lyrium and dragons and fits naturally with the rest of the setting, in lore and in themes connected to magic and dragons. Very neat. I would not be surprised if the DA team takes it up and make it real, if it isn't already in their minds.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A Song of Ice and Fire has the return of magic linked to the return of dragons as well. It may appear a little derivative if Thedas takes that up as well and links the re-ascension of magic to dragons, but it would be a natural fit.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. The lyrium must flow!

Seriously, I like this idea. While I think some details are a bit off, on the whole it creates a comprehensive ecology of lyrium and dragons and fits naturally with the rest of the setting, in lore and in themes connected to magic and dragons. Very neat. I would not be surprised if the DA team takes it up and make it real, if it isn't already in their minds.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A Song of Ice and Fire has the return of magic linked to the return of dragons as well. It may appear a little derivative if Thedas takes that up as well and links the re-ascension of magic to dragons, but it would be a natural fit.

Technically it was only the Wildfire that increased in power with the return of Dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire, magic in general was never gone either, it was just suffering a severe decline in Westeros.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. The lyrium must flow!

Seriously, I like this idea. While I think some details are a bit off, on the whole it creates a comprehensive ecology of lyrium and dragons and fits naturally with the rest of the setting, in lore and in themes connected to magic and dragons. Very neat. I would not be surprised if the DA team takes it up and make it real, if it isn't already in their minds.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A Song of Ice and Fire has the return of magic linked to the return of dragons as well. It may appear a little derivative if Thedas takes that up as well and links the re-ascension of magic to dragons, but it would be a natural fit.

Technically it was only the Wildfire that increased in power with the return of Dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire, magic in general was never gone either, it was just suffering a severe decline in Westeros.

From the ASoIaF wiki:

"Dragons are believed to be intrinsically tied to magic and the seasons of the world. Since dragons became extinct from Westeros, the power of magic dwindled and winters grew colder."

There is some room for interpretation as to if it's actually true, but this appears to indicate a connection.

On Thedas, I don't see an intrinsic link, but the same events which may result in more dragons appearing may also affect magic.

[Vulpe]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. The lyrium must flow!

Seriously, I like this idea. While I think some details are a bit off, on the whole it creates a comprehensive ecology of lyrium and dragons and fits naturally with the rest of the setting, in lore and in themes connected to magic and dragons. Very neat. I would not be surprised if the DA team takes it up and make it real, if it isn't already in their minds.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A Song of Ice and Fire has the return of magic linked to the return of dragons as well. It may appear a little derivative if Thedas takes that up as well and links the re-ascension of magic to dragons, but it would be a natural fit.

Technically it was only the Wildfire that increased in power with the return of Dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire, magic in general was never gone either, it was just suffering a severe decline in Westeros.

From the ASoIaF wiki:

"Dragons are believed to be intrinsically tied to magic and the seasons of the world. Since dragons became extinct from Westeros, the power of magic dwindled and winters grew colder."

There is some room for interpretation as to if it's actually true, but this appears to indicate a connection.

On Thedas, I don't see an intrinsic link, but the same events which may result in more dragons appearing may also affect magic.

If lyrium is dragon cocoon shell it could resonate stronger and try to absorb more energy from the Fade to make the signal more efficient, signaling to the other dragons and maybe the dragon blooded individuals its location.

Or it could just be that after the dragons exit from the egg cocoons(or they die inside of it) the shell slowly transform in lyrium.

If I had to guess the speed, I'd say that is slower than how Sandworms make/become ( can't remember) spice  , but much faster than how dinosaurs become oil 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 12:04 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Am I the only one who wants to reread Dune now?

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Modifié par DinoSteve, 13 décembre 2013 - 12:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. The lyrium must flow!

Seriously, I like this idea. While I think some details are a bit off, on the whole it creates a comprehensive ecology of lyrium and dragons and fits naturally with the rest of the setting, in lore and in themes connected to magic and dragons. Very neat. I would not be surprised if the DA team takes it up and make it real, if it isn't already in their minds.

Oh, and while I'm at it: A Song of Ice and Fire has the return of magic linked to the return of dragons as well. It may appear a little derivative if Thedas takes that up as well and links the re-ascension of magic to dragons, but it would be a natural fit.

Technically it was only the Wildfire that increased in power with the return of Dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire, magic in general was never gone either, it was just suffering a severe decline in Westeros.

From the ASoIaF wiki:

"Dragons are believed to be intrinsically tied to magic and the seasons of the world. Since dragons became extinct from Westeros, the power of magic dwindled and winters grew colder."

There is some room for interpretation as to if it's actually true, but this appears to indicate a connection.

On Thedas, I don't see an intrinsic link, but the same events which may result in more dragons appearing may also affect magic.

well, it is just that in the novels magic never really disappeared, even when the dragons went extinct. Only on the continent of Westeros did magic suffer a decline, but that is more because fewer practioners lived there, than because magic simply disappeared.
However, I think there is a certain truth to the theory for A Song of Ice and Fire that Dragons are indeed conencted to some sorts of magic. Particularly evident in he fact that Wildfire is now more efficient, and old dormant artifacts conencted to dragons have now sprung to life again. But I don't think that magic as a whole is conencted to dragons at all. ANyyhoo, that is a bit off-topic...

For the on-topic discussion: All those crystals MIGHT also not even have been related to dragons at all, not their dormant form or a constructed hibernation chamber. They might just be purely decorative.

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For the on-topic discussion: All those crystals MIGHT also not even have been related to dragons at all, not their dormant form or a constructed hibernation chamber. They might just be purely decorative.

In the huge intact egg there's a dragon skeleton. This picture isn't really good because it cuts a part of it, but from one of the proken parts of the egg, there's some kind of  sticky, glair like liquid . If those are docerative, Yavana likes her things very retro. 

I'll come later with an edit and add a better picture of the dragon and one where you can see the skull.

Note: If you look closely at the intact egg you can see something like a dragon bone shape.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For the on-topic discussion: All those crystals MIGHT also not even have been related to dragons at all, not their dormant form or a constructed hibernation chamber. They might just be purely decorative.

In the huge intact egg there's a dragon skeleton. This picture isn't really good because it cuts a part of it, but from one of the proken parts of the egg, there's some kind of  sticky, glair like liquid . If those are docerative, Yavana likes her things very retro. 

I'll come later with an edit and add a better picture of the dragon and one where you can see the skull.

Note: If you look closely at the intact egg you can see something like a dragon bone shape.

There are encased insects in amber. That doesn't mean all trees are dormant giant insects.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ahile an intriguing theory, I'm thinking there is a serious question of volume. If The Silent Grove had dragojs hanging out in hibernation for centuries, then we would expect to see huge veins of lyrium coursing through the place, not just a few bit egg shells worth. Otherwise, at that slow rate of growth, we sould expect to see almost no lyrium in the world. Remember that lyrium grows, such that new veins can be discovered in areas already searched because of its expansion.

Now... could there be a creature that exists in a hibernation state that works similar to a dragon and is the true source of all lyrium? An immensely powerful being deep underground that draws power from the Fade and, like your theoretical dragon shells, continuosly cocoons itsslf more and more, since time untold?

A being that an underground race such as the dwarves might be able to sense and even worship, if only as the recgnized it as... The Stone?

[UC SIM]

Well here's another Dune related one for you "Quizzats Cataract(sp)" The Qunari have breeding programmes. They have a priesthood dominated by females too, Bene Gesserit. Could it be that the Qunari are trying to create a being of immense power? A being that can be in many places at once? Who can look at the places no other can?
I don't think so! But its very easy too see parallels between various things.

[Vulpe]

Here's a better image.



And here is Yavana givin some lovin' to that egg thingy

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For the on-topic discussion: All those crystals MIGHT also not even have being related to dragons at all, not their dormant form or a constructed hibernation chamber. They might just be purely decorative.

In the huge intact egg there's a dragon skeleton. This picture isn't really good because it cuts a part of it, but from one of the proken parts of the egg, there's some kind of  sticky, glair like liquid . If those are docerative, Yavana likes her things very retro. 

I'll come later with an edit and add a better picture of the dragon and one where you can see the skull.

Note: If you look closely at the intact egg you can see something like a dragon bone shape.

There are encased insects in amber. That doesn't mean all trees are dormant giant insects.

Well, amber is indeed a precious stone, but the term is used in an improper fashion. Amber is of organic nature, been fosilized resin. As for the dragons eggs, I doubt that they are similar with amber in nature. If you look at the cracked egg you can see inside of it crystal shaped protuberances. It seems more as a crystal to me, but I could be wrong. Still, it's hollow inside for the dragon to have some space.

As you can see in the picture with Yavana, in those shells there are dragons and as she stated, she saved the ones she could.

Amber only conserves the organism caught in it. Those eggs keep them alive. 

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ahile an intriguing theory, I'm thinking there is a serious question of volume. If The Silent Grove had dragojs hanging out in hibernation for centuries, then we would expect to see huge veins of lyrium coursing through the place, not just a few bit egg shells worth. Otherwise, at that slow rate of growth, we sould expect to see almost no lyrium in the world. Remember that lyrium grows, such that new veins can be discovered in areas already searched because of its expansion. 

Now... could there be a creature that exists in a hibernation state that works similar to a dragon and is the true source of all lyrium? An immensely powerful being deep underground that draws power from the Fade and, like your theoretical dragon shells, continuosly cocoons itsslf more and more, since time untold? 

A being that an underground race such as the dwarves might be able to sense and even worship, if only as the recgnized it as... The Stone?

Intriguing. I like the way you're thinking, but I have something to say on my part.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time it is said that normal lyrium grows over a surface is when it comes to those lyrium balls from the Golems of Armggarak DLC, in the wiki. If The World of Thedas states otherwise, please correct me.

As for the conversion : it could be a slow process. Yavana didn't die from hemoragies in the grove, so those shells weren't lyrium (yet). It could be a process that needs time ( Maybe a few more centuries ,almost a millenia or more.Those dragons slept for 250-300 hundred years and the shells still didn't become lyrium) just like the transformation of organic matter in petroleum, but much faster.

Yavana stated that there were times when dragons ruled the sky. All the lyrium could from those times. They live in a medieval era, so minning isn't that efficient as in our times.

All this would mean that they might face in the distant future a lyrium crisis, just like we do with the oil.
Also, there might have been other dragons that chose this hibernating method during the history of Thedas and awaited to be brought back to life by awake dragon and drakes.

For the creature : Could be.If the dragons are the source of lyrium in the world then I would dare to assume that if such a creature exists it is a dragon. Maybe the Old Gods are the sorce.

As for the dwarves, I think they developed the Stone sense as a defence mechanism ( even with their resistance, lyrium can still kill them ) and a navigation one ( they sense the lyrium veins and use them as highlights when navigating the underground).

I am inclined to believe that blue lyrium appears in a slow rate because of its conterpart - the red one.

I think that the red one was altered ( either the dragon that made it was or it was altered later ) so that it would use its houst as a catalyst to absorb energy. The host absorbs energy from The Fade and red lyrium absorbs the energy from its host blood, and it self-replicates. Here's my theory regarding red lyrium if you haven't read it. You'll better understand what I'm saying.

If that is so, blue lyrium could still grow from a smaller vein, but at a slower rate because it absorbs energy directly from The Fade.

Also, lyrium is a crystal and crystals are self replicating.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 02:42 .

[Vulpe]

UC SIM wrote...

Well here's another Dune related one for you "Quizzats Cataract(sp)" The Qunari have breeding programmes. They have a priesthood dominated by females too, Bene Gesserit. Could it be that the Qunari are trying to create a being of immense power? A being that can be in many places at once? Who can look at the places no other can?
I don't think so! But its very easy too see parallels between various things.

Here's another one : guess how the fremens used to call the giant worms ? I'll tell you : Whorm who is God, Great Maker and wait for it... The Maker .

Andraste is married to a giant worm.

As for the qunari, I think that they were altered through the use of dragon blood and magic. The kossith would have been a dragon worshiping culture and the grey giants would have played a role in protecting and awakening the dragons, as Yavana did.

Now what I think the Ariqun secretly tries to do is to cleanse their bloodline of the dragon blood and the dragon worshiper heritage. Here you can read more about what I'm saying if you're interested.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[Swaggerjking]

This is very intriguing and give me a new on how the golden city became black ok so maybe while the dragons hibernate they go the fade maybe the seven most powerful dragons who could be confuse for gods tried to take over the golden city in the maker last act of desperation use a spell to dispell the the dragons which corrupted the city making it black and turning them into arch demons then maybe when the magisters went to city which was already black the maker cast the mages out to protected them but failed and turned them into the first darkspawn Thoe is all very  circumstantial  

Modifié par Swaggerjking, 13 décembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If Qunari were indeed dragonblooded, wouldn't it ahve been easier for Yavanna to just get some lowlife Tal-Vasoth to "donate" some blood, instead of going through the trouble of finding Alistair?

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Qunari were indeed dragonblooded, wouldn't it ahve been easier for Yavanna to just get some lowlife Tal-Vasoth to "donate" some blood, instead of going through the trouble of finding Alistair?

Do you think it is a well known thing if it's true ?

I doubt that this kind of information is known to the usual qunari grey giant. It might be a known thing only among the Ariqun high members ( after all, it's their job to note and know everything about the Qun ) and maybe a few outside people like Titus.


Also,I think that they were altered through the use of magic and dragon blood ( similar do the orcs from the Might & Magic universe, only that they were transformed with the use of demon blood ). It might not be the same thing as ingesting it ( it might get thinner and thinner through selective breeding) + if I'm right, the Ariqun worked to eliminate it for some time. 

Note: I've watched the image with Yavana embracing the dragon egg againt. The egg was steamed. The dragon inside is not a skeleton, it's alive and sleeping.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Theory: When underground Dragons pee, their urine goes upward rather downward. Sometimes it is pure and liquid, sometimes it is mixed with rocks, etc. and solidifies. It is also called Lyrium!

[Vulpe]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Theory: When underground Dragons pee, their urine goes upward rather downward. Sometimes it is pure and liquid, sometimes it is mixed with rocks, etc. and solidifies. It is also called Lyrium!

Ha ha ha. And Thedas is a flat,disc shape land mass located on the backs of 4 elephants that are placed on their turn on a giant turtle that flies through space. <_<

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 13 décembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

^ Thedas is a "magical world". So it might be true!
At least Lyrium isn't related to veil and demons in this theory.

[Vulpe]

 Wait, you were serious ?