26 réponses à ce sujet

[The_Mac23]

 Hey all, 

I just replayed Dragon Age, and I have to say... I was not as impressed as I once was.  Mainly because I felt like the character backstories left a lot to be desired, as well as the overall feeling of my character belonging in the game.

Here is what I mean:

Alistair is clearly Duncan's favored apprentice.  He sends you to seek him out for answers, and at Ostagar, Alistair is the junior member of the Wardens; meaning he has more cred than you.  His backstory is also intriguing as well.

Everywhere you go, it feels like you are just random.  Alistair knows Bann Teagan and Arl Eamon... and introduces you.  

There are others, but my point of this topic is this.  Should you have played as Duncan?  I think he would have been a blast to play as honestly.  

He is said to have a near impossible task of recruiting Wardens in Ferelden, as well as defending against a Blight.  Teyrn Loghain hates him and the Wardens.  There is a true rivalry that could have been formed between Duncan and Loghain, especially if you survived Ostagar when Loghain pulled out, leaving you and Cailan to die.  He then blames you for poisoning Cailan's mind, making you hated by the people.  All of this would have made the Landsmeet that much sweeter.  People would have known YOU, which is something I loved about Shepard.  You still would have had free choice to do what you wanted in each quest; no one can say for certain what Duncan would have done in all of those situations.  

What do you guys think?

[Angrywolves]

I trhink playing as Duncan would have taken some of the challenge away because Duncan has the experience as a fighter of darkspawn and familiarity with the other races.

[Mike3207]

Alistair doesn't really introduce the Cousland Warden. Teagan recognizes him as Bryce's son.

[The_Mac23]

The Cousland Warden is the only one who feels like he belongs in the world, but even then, consider this. He/She has absolutely no battle experience. Cousland admits this to Ser Jory at Ostagar... "I have never been a soldier, but my father taught me how to fight." C'mon. I'm all for underdog stories, but there is no way experienced Wardens would all perish while this one kills the archdemon.

As for the Dwarf storylines. I liked their backstories; especially Lord Aeducan's. But after being expelled from Orzammar... I don't know, you don't really ever feel like you belong. Same goes for the elves.

Duncan or Alistair would have been preferable to me to play as. I like making my own choices in a game, but I now see the advantages of already having a character with a solid backstory. Not like Hawke, whose story was rushed and bland. It's a fine line, but Duncan was bad a.

[dainbramage]

Duncan wouldn't work as an RPG character. As you say, he's experienced and badass. Unless you're meant to start as a lvl 25 rogue, that doesn't really make sense.

The alistair vs pc thing is kind of silly. His role in the game is exposition, at least near the start. That's why he explains where you can go, who peple are, etc. That couln't work as the main character. And for most origins except the HN and maybe CE it makes sense that he'd be doing that. It's not like dwarves or the dalish are going to know human geography.

As for the pc surviving when everyone else dies... have you ever played a bioware game before?

[The_Mac23]

In fact I have, dainbramage. If you took time to read my post earlier, or even this topic's title in general, it mentions the word Shepard... as in Commander Shepard. Only the most well known PC in any Bioware game to date

How is Alistair vs PC thing silly? I get your point about Duncan being too leveled up (although Shepard was second in command to Captain Anderson, and was still level 1, so kind of a mute point).

Alistair went through a joining not too long before your random Warden. He had the backstory with Arl Eamon, who if you remember, was kind of a big character in the game.. as well as Bann Teagan. He was brother to the king, had the true reason to hate Teyrn Loghain, etc. There was much more appeal to him than there was to any random character you could create.

You make my point about the dwarves/dalish in a sense as well. That's my reasoning for not enjoying their games. Like I said, their origin tales were fun (except the Dalish one), but after that, they were purely random. You never felt like you belonged anywhere. I used to not mind it, but after Mass Effect, I realized that was the biggest thing it had which Dragon Age didn't.

Even Jade Empire made some sense. You were a pupil being trained by Master Li, and that ends up taking you on a grand quest. You felt like you belonged in the world, you had some credentials because you were trained by the main antagonist of the game.

Exposition is kind of lame, tbh. I hate playing a character who needs to be told what to do, when to do it, why they have to do it, etc. on every single quest. By that logic, it should be Alistair who leads the group, shouldn't it?

The only backstory which has credentials to defeat an archdemon or become a great Warden is the Dwarf Noble. He's fought darkspawn before and knows something about them.

The others... c'mon. HN- My daddy trained me a little bit. CE- My mommy was a good warrior in an area where weapons weren't allowed. DC- I'm a thug who somehow can upend high ranking military officers. M- I know magic (so does Wynne, Jowan, etc.) DE- I shoot defenseless humans and found a mirror.

[caradoc2000]

The_Mac23 wrote...

The others... c'mon. HN- My daddy trained me a little bit. CE- My mommy was a good warrior in an area where weapons weren't allowed. DC- I'm a thug who somehow can upend high ranking military officers. M- I know magic (so does Wynne, Jowan, etc.) DE- I shoot defenseless humans and found a mirror.

Combat prowess is a hereditary trait in Thedas.

[The_Mac23]

Lol please tell me that was sarcasm.

[Angrywolves]

The_Mac23 wrote...

The Cousland Warden is the only one who feels like he belongs in the world, but even then, consider this. He/She has absolutely no battle experience. Cousland admits this to Ser Jory at Ostagar... "I have never been a soldier, but my father taught me how to fight." C'mon. I'm all for underdog stories, but there is no way experienced Wardens would all perish while this one kills the archdemon.

As for the Dwarf storylines. I liked their backstories; especially Lord Aeducan's. But after being expelled from Orzammar... I don't know, you don't really ever feel like you belong. Same goes for the elves.

Duncan or Alistair would have been preferable to me to play as. I like making my own choices in a game, but I now see the advantages of already having a character with a solid backstory. Not like Hawke, whose story was rushed and bland. It's a fine line, but Duncan was bad a.

Probably more than just a little bit.I would have sneaked off and worked out with the soldiers when I had the chance.So the Cousland was probably better than just my daddy helped me.

[dainbramage]

The_Mac23 wrote...

How is Alistair vs PC thing silly? I get your point about Duncan being too leveled up (although Shepard was second in command to Captain Anderson, and was still level 1, so kind of a mute point).

Alistair went through a joining not too long before your random Warden. He had the backstory with Arl Eamon, who if you remember, was kind of a big character in the game.. as well as Bann Teagan. He was brother to the king, had the true reason to hate Teyrn Loghain, etc. There was much more appeal to him than there was to any random character you could create.

You make my point about the dwarves/dalish in a sense as well. That's my reasoning for not enjoying their games. Like I said, their origin tales were fun (except the Dalish one), but after that, they were purely random. You never felt like you belonged anywhere. I used to not mind it, but after Mass Effect, I realized that was the biggest thing it had which Dragon Age didn't.

OK. Alistair is now the PC. Your origin story is some shenanigans at templar school that duncan pulls you out from. You do your joining. You get to ostagar, and the first objective is "wait for new recruit to find you", so you stand around while some NPC talks to literally every single person they can find before eventually coming to you...

More seriously, you get to lothering. Then what? There's a cutscene, and the PC suddenly goes "hey guys, let's have a discussion about what we're going to do. I happen to know Arl Eamon's a pretty cool dude, plus we've got these treaties". Sorry, that doesn't work as the PC. Somehow the player has to be informed of this, regardless of whether the PC should. Which means an NPC typically has to do that, and Alistair is written as he is so that he can be that character.

Even Jade Empire made some sense. You were a pupil being trained by Master Li, and that ends up taking you on a grand quest. You felt like you belonged in the world, you had some credentials because you were trained by the main antagonist of the game.

The only origin that bungles this is the dalish elf. The rest all fit in pretty well to the story. HN probably the most effectively, but all of them apart from DE do fit in.

Exposition is kind of lame, tbh. I hate playing a character who needs to be told what to do, when to do it, why they have to do it, etc. on every single quest. By that logic, it should be Alistair who leads the group, shouldn't it?

It only happens in the early game. But really, every single game works like that at some level. You haven't just been dumped someplace with no-one telling you the basics since like... 1990. Gorion tells you to go to some inn as he dies. Aribeth tells you to fetch some creatures. Carth tells you to rescue Bastila. The Council orders Shepard around. For non-bioware... Roche tells Geralt to chase Iorveth. The great Deku tree tells Link to seek zelda.  Even in something as open-world as skyrim you're told it's a good idea to go to whiterun at the start, and join the empire or the rebels. Alistair saying he thinks going to Eamon is a good idea is really pretty light fare. Meanwhile Alistair has been conditioned from childhood to not want leadership roles or any real power to avoid him contesting Cailan, which is why he does not want to lead.

The only backstory which has credentials to defeat an archdemon or become a great Warden is the Dwarf Noble. He's fought darkspawn before and knows something about them.

The others... c'mon. HN- My daddy trained me a little bit. CE- My mommy was a good warrior in an area where weapons weren't allowed. DC- I'm a thug who somehow can upend high ranking military officers. M- I know magic (so does Wynne, Jowan, etc.) DE- I shoot defenseless humans and found a mirror.

Nobles generally had weapons masters train their kids from a young age. So the HN should be more than proficient, even if lacking in real experience (then again, so would be anyone not old enough to remember the orlesian occupation). The DC is the best fighter in a well organised carta that would presumably train its fighters. Weapons were only banned in the alienage after the events of the CE origin. Dales are all experienced hunters. And magic, I would guess, is pretty handy.

More than that though, a huge proportion of "violent" fiction involves some untrained person winning against the odds.

Modifié par dainbramage, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[The_Mac23]

Obviously if you played as Alistair, the story would differ. I doubt you'd stand in Ostagar and wait for a new recruit to talk to you. Unearth his backstory with Eamon instead of just saying "hey, I'm related to Eamon."

I get an underdog story, winning against the odds, etc. They are great tales. What I want, however, is a character who is memorable. Not just because of my choices, but because of my character's story, growth, and development. All characters in Dragon Age grow, Alistair especially in the PC's party.

As for overcoming the odds, defeating a Blight and Archdemon is something I consider to be nearly impossible. Someone who hasn't seen the battlefield ends up defeating it? I don't buy it.

Here's a question. Why did Duncan have his eye on spoiled brat Cousland? Ser Gillmor or Fergus made sense. Fergus would have been fun to play as or have as a party member.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

dainbramage wrote...

The only origin that bungles this is the dalish elf. The rest all fit in pretty well to the story. HN probably the most effectively, but all of them apart from DE do fit in.

And that's exactly why it's my favourite origin. 

I prefer it when my character is some nobody who comes out of nowhere and makes a name for herself, with nobody she knows in this world and constantly being judged. Her past is her past. It doesn't have to do with what she's doing now. 

Though eventually, which Witch Hunt and DA2, it does tie in. So...there you go.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 17 décembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[The_Mac23]

Witch hunt was a rushed dlc. I'm sure you will all say you loved it, but the majority of people I know who played Dragon age said they didn't care for it.

Regarding the DE... why in the world would Duncan recruit you? You have absolutely 0 credentials. The Wardens are not a charity or a last resort at doing something with your life. They are legendary warriors. Heroes. All start having to work themselves up, but it's your repute that should get you noticed. The Dalish elf got it's butt kicked by a magic mirror, lost his/her friend in the process. Had to be rescued by Duncan. Sorry, were I Duncan, that's not someone I'd recruit.

[Thesandman87]

personally I think your over thinking it, the point is your a Jr Member, and times are desperate, also Duncan sending you to light the signal fire signals that your not combat ready yet, he just doesn't have time to train you in the ways of war yet. And this works, your not really waging a traditional war the entire game, your a rag tag group of people working together, where being a solider is less important than knowing how to fight and kill, its only at the end of the game where your part of an army for a few minutes then off to kill on your own again, it actually makes sense if you really think it through at least to me.

[The_Mac23]

If that's the case.. if you are not fighting a traditional war (you're right in a sense, but I think you've missed a few points as well), how does this prepare you? How can one as little experienced such as your Warden defeat the likes of Howe and Loghain, much less a tainted god? It doesn't add up to me.

I know it's a story of fiction. I really do like this game, but I also prefer a bit of realism as well. To unite Ferelden was a seemingly impossible task. Even for one as seasoned as Duncan. All I am saying is that these candidates for the Hero of Ferelden are honestly pretty weak if you honestly sit back and think. Over thinking is fun! It's how newer and improved ideas come about.

Disclaimer again. I am a fan of this game. There were just a few things I thought could have been greatly improved after playing it again.

[Thesandman87]

same reason a band of rebels defeated the British in real history, the same way barbarians brought down the roman empire ect ect ect. It could be argued being a solider can handicap you in single combat, your trained to fight only a few ways, while someone that learns by doing and never got formal military training would be using tactics that would seem alien to you.

Also as for uniting the lands, what better than an underdog to rally behind, the people are lied to, threatened, and in the end distrustful of those in power, yet here you come a new face, having done great deeds, saving there very lives in a lot of places. Your a living martyr to these people, and you havn't had a chance to let them down yet, only to save them.

Legends tend to be a single person that does the impossible, look at folklore, most of the legends of our history where unknown until they did the very deed that made them a legend.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

The_Mac23 wrote...

Witch hunt was a rushed dlc. I'm sure you will all say you loved it, but the majority of people I know who played Dragon age said they didn't care for it.

Regarding the DE... why in the world would Duncan recruit you? You have absolutely 0 credentials. The Wardens are not a charity or a last resort at doing something with your life. They are legendary warriors. Heroes. All start having to work themselves up, but it's your repute that should get you noticed. The Dalish elf got it's butt kicked by a magic mirror, lost his/her friend in the process. Had to be rescued by Duncan. Sorry, were I Duncan, that's not someone I'd recruit.

Because the DE was able to hold her own against darkspawn on the way to the cave? Because Marethari probably told him about her being one of their top hunters? 

[Ferretinabun]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

The_Mac23 wrote...

Witch hunt was a rushed dlc. I'm sure you will all say you loved it, but the majority of people I know who played Dragon age said they didn't care for it.

Regarding the DE... why in the world would Duncan recruit you? You have absolutely 0 credentials. The Wardens are not a charity or a last resort at doing something with your life. They are legendary warriors. Heroes. All start having to work themselves up, but it's your repute that should get you noticed. The Dalish elf got it's butt kicked by a magic mirror, lost his/her friend in the process. Had to be rescued by Duncan. Sorry, were I Duncan, that's not someone I'd recruit.

Because the DE was able to hold her own against darkspawn on the way to the cave? Because Marethari probably told him about her being one of their top hunters? 

You can headcanon any sort of reputation for your warden. But the way the DE origin plays out, it still very much feels like you're being recruited out of charity.

[dainbramage]

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can headcanon any sort of reputation for your warden. But the way the DE origin plays out, it still very much feels like you're being recruited out of charity.

Recruition out of charity is clearly enshrined in DA2, so it's obviously fine and dandy

(/s)

Modifié par dainbramage, 18 décembre 2013 - 04:14 .

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can headcanon any sort of reputation for your warden. But the way the DE origin plays out, it still very much feels like you're being recruited out of charity.

It's less headcanon and more common sense with the whole fighting through undead and darkspawn thing. It's a bit more impressive than rats. And given the fact that all origin Wardens are actually special snowflakes in one way or another I'd have a hard time believing the DE didn't have some rep among their clan.

If Duncan wanted a recruit there, seems like the obvious pick.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 18 décembre 2013 - 09:32 .

[The_Mac23]

Thesandman87 wrote...

same reason a band of rebels defeated the British in real history, the same way barbarians brought down the roman empire ect ect ect. It could be argued being a solider can handicap you in single combat, your trained to fight only a few ways, while someone that learns by doing and never got formal military training would be using tactics that would seem alien to you.

Also as for uniting the lands, what better than an underdog to rally behind, the people are lied to, threatened, and in the end distrustful of those in power, yet here you come a new face, having done great deeds, saving there very lives in a lot of places. Your a living martyr to these people, and you havn't had a chance to let them down yet, only to save them.

Legends tend to be a single person that does the impossible, look at folklore, most of the legends of our history where unknown until they did the very deed that made them a legend.

In real history, there were those of experience leading our continentals and militia against the British as well.  Look, I am not saying you HAVE to be General Washington, but you need something more than "Well, this one time, I killed a few rats in a cellar.  Or, this one time, my dad gave me a sword."  These are not humans you're fighting; they're monstrous beings hell bent on wiping out the world of humans, elves, dwarves, etc.  Britain greatly underestimated the Continental US... the darkspawn don't have the mind capacity to do such a thing.  

Legends are indeed a single person who does the impossible; I offer you no argument there.  But I ask you this... is it imperative that the legendary figure has absolutely no credentials to his/her name?  Would you say Duncan's name will forever be remembered even after his untimely death at Ostagar?  The answer is no.  He did nothing of great relevance.  Sure, people will remember him for "recruiting the hero of Ferelden," for a time, but after a few generations, his name is gone.  What I am advocating is that someone like Duncan has the experience, the credentials, the knowledge, the wisdom, etc. to be that legend who pulls off the impossible.  

I still have to ask.  And I use the Cousland Warden more than the others because that his was the only one I finished entirely.  How does a warrior, who has no battle experience, who is called "pup" by his dad, and is clearly a momma's boy have the capability to defeat Arl Rendon Howe and Teyrn Loghain MacTir?  Loghain was known as a great warrior and hero of the people.  One on one, you're seriously going to tell me that one who has never been in battle can defeat a man who singlehandedly pushed back Orlesian Cheveliars?  C'MON!!  

[PicdiCr80]

As a Brit I feel I need to say that the British(Albeit Loyalists, Hessians, Native Americans actually made up a massive amount of the Redcoats during the war) actually won more battles than we lost in the American Revolutionary War, and that the American Army was actually founded by former British RedCoats and Generals and such, hence much experience on their part. The Yanks won the war by destroying trade routes, funding, supplies etc.(We had to get supplies shipped in and delivered etc.) and Politically, not to mention Britain was fighting multiple wars at the time, the American Colonies been seen as a minor one.

Modifié par PicdiCr80, 21 décembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[dainbramage]

The_Mac23 wrote...

I still have to ask.  And I use the Cousland Warden more than the others because that his was the only one I finished entirely.  How does a warrior, who has no battle experience, who is called "pup" by his dad, and is clearly a momma's boy have the capability to defeat Arl Rendon Howe and Teyrn Loghain MacTir?  Loghain was known as a great warrior and hero of the people.  One on one, you're seriously going to tell me that one who has never been in battle can defeat a man who singlehandedly pushed back Orlesian Cheveliars?  C'MON!!

Aside from the fact that noble children were extensively trained in combat (and that being called "pup" doesn't contradict that, nor does being a "momma's boy" [and what evidence is there for that exactly?] when you also have a martially trained mother...), my warden had killed several hundred people/darkspawn/animals by the time I faced Loghain. Surely he's a grizzled veteran by now. Meanwhile Loghain's somewhere around 60 years old. Hardly at his prime (nor did he singehandedly push back the Orlesians... his army would've come in handy, I imagine).

[The_Mac23]

So, by your logic, could I beat Michael Jordan in a game of one on one in basketball? My dad taught me how to play. I was a really good high school player. Since Jordan is past his prime, I should be able to win, right? Never mind that he was one of the best college players of all time. Just like Loghain wasa leader and warrior for the majority of his life, his age wouldnt hinder him all that badly like you may think. He was tried and tested against Orland while daddy trained the Cousland Warden. It doesn't add up. Big difference in seeing battle, defending yourself against men ready to kill you, and taking life yourself as opposed to striking at a wooden dummy while someone trains you.

[dainbramage]

You're either really stupid or deliberately not reading what I'm saying. In case it's the former I'm going to use short sentences, and in case it's the latter this is my last reply (actually, in either case).

Firstly. Nobles. Trained from young age. Many hours per week. By weapons masters, not parents. Once adults, amongst best swordsmen there are. Whereas Loghain was an untrained peasant (if the PC being good is such a problem, how did Loghain become good?).

Secondly. DA:O spans about 2 years. During which warden does nothing but kill ****. That tries to kill him back, not training dummies. Should be pretty good by the end.

Thirdly. Loghain's about 60. Plus hasn't fought in war for the past 30 years. Jordan is 50 and has kept playing bb even retirement. War is also a contact sport.



So let's see. If you spent 10+ hours a week since you were 5 being trained by professionals at basketball, played for the USA under 21s in high school, spent the last 2 years doing literally nothing but playing basketball and you could body check jordan (who is 10 years older and hasn't picked up a ball in the past 30 years) without it being called a foul then yeah you probably could beat him. I doubt any of those are true though.

Modifié par dainbramage, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:43 .