169 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

It's not really free if it's included as part of a game you paid money for. The question for Bioware is whether they make something part of the game and hope to earn money by getting more sales because they're providing a better value product, or make it DLC and get money more directly.

(Or they could put up the price of the base game of course)

[Sanunes]

AlanC9 wrote...


Where do you look to see if there's a sale, besides trying to buy a DLC you don't have the points for? I'm in the DLC-isn't-worth-it-at-full-price camp too.

When in the Origin store I search for "BioWare" and it brings up the ability to buy points instead of only buying them when purchasing DLC.  The biggest discount I have ever seen is 50% off and the only packs available is the 800 point and 1,600 point versions.

Edit:

I am hoping with Dragon Age: Inquisition and being integrated into Origin BioWare DLC will be changed away from the point system so its obvious when its on sale.

Modifié par Sanunes, 17 décembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[Plaintiff]

Bfler wrote...
All the extra stuff in the Witcher games is free and CDPR has already superseded Bioware as developer.

"Superseded" in what sense? Certainly not financially: Bioware is massively successful compared to CDPR, and much larger.

Is CDPR more prolific? No, they've existed for over a decade and so far have produced exactly 2 games. By contrast, in the time it took CDPR to make those two games, Bioware produced at least thirteen full games, including an MMO, plus one expansion pack. And Bioware puts a good portion of its games out for multiple consoles, whereas CDProjeket attempted to adapt The Witcher for consoles and failed.

Does CDPR make better games? Subjective opinion. Personally, CDPR has yet to offer me anything that I'm even remotely interested in.

So it seems it can be a sustainable practice.

Two games isn't proof of "sustainable" anything.

[The Twilight God]

manbobjoe wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

It'll probably be the most interesting companion to be put behind a paywall.

I did not think Shale, Sebastian, or Javik were "the most interesting" companions in their respective games so I have no reason to believe the day 1 DLC character will be at all superior to the other companions present.

Interesting is debatable, but Javik was definitely added some important lore and mission dialog. I got him for free with the collector's edition. The idea of that character not being in the base game is mindboggling. But this is the future of gaming - nickel and diming saps - which is why I'm not much of a gamer anymore.

To the OP,

I've heard for Shale it had something to do with how they were programming the height. But that seems fishy as they quite easily just made her model bigger in cutscenes and smaller as a character model in the field. But she was is the game from the start.

Zaeed was supposed to be Garrus... er, in that you got him instead of Garrus. But the demand for Garrus made them take Zaeed out and release him later as DLC. He was actually the first concept art they ever released for a squadmate. He was just less scared, more handsome (like a rugged TIM) but had the same armor. I wonder if Kasumi was cut for Tali? These would be understandable cuts. Samara would probably have been DLC too if Liara was more expendable story wise.

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Sanunes]

The Twilight God wrote...

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Do you have proof that Sebastian and Javik were cut for profit? Even though Javik has interesting lines of dialogue, everything he does feels isolated to me except for Horizon, so in a design sense he is easily removable. Unlike James if they finished James involvement around the Tutorial that would have needed to be redesigned and re-animated to fit another character and if they are cutting content to get ready for shipping that wouldn't an option for they would just make more work.  Now any of the other crew members were turned into DLC could you imagine what the outcry would have been if someones "favorite character" was put behind a paywall. BioWare hurt themselves in my opinion with trying to included every possible squadmember from the previous two games in Mass Effect 3, for it looks like it left them very little room to cut content when reaching the crunch.

I didn't play any Dragon Age: Origins DLC until much later so I can't argue how important Sebastian was to the people that played Awakening, but maybe Sebastian was the character that was the least distance along in the development cycle when something needed to be cut.

[Aaleel]

Sanunes wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Do you have proof that Sebastian and Javik were cut for profit? Even though Javik has interesting lines of dialogue, everything he does feels isolated to me except for Horizon, so in a design sense he is easily removable. Unlike James if they finished James involvement around the Tutorial that would have needed to be redesigned and re-animated to fit another character and if they are cutting content to get ready for shipping that wouldn't an option for they would just make more work.  Now any of the other crew members were turned into DLC could you imagine what the outcry would have been if someones "favorite character" was put behind a paywall. BioWare hurt themselves in my opinion with trying to included every possible squadmember from the previous two games in Mass Effect 3, for it looks like it left them very little room to cut content when reaching the crunch.

I didn't play any Dragon Age: Origins DLC until much later so I can't argue how important Sebastian was to the people that played Awakening, but maybe Sebastian was the character that was the least distance along in the development cycle when something needed to be cut.

Sebastian's DLC was a good chunk of the 3rd Act storyline.  Leliana's appearence, the rogue faction of mages from the tower fraternity, the entire part of the story where you're urging the grand cleric to flee Kirkwall for her own safety because evil things are in the works.  Alot of the grand cleric's appearence is due to the DLC.

I don't mind cutting out characters who were self contained in their DLC.  But Sebastian was obviously cutting out story as well.  He may not have been in the game from the start but his story is interwoven through the 3rd act of the game.

I really want to see what the game looked liked if you didn't purchase the DLC.  Did Leliana really just walk out at the end with no foreshadowing.  How nuch screen time does the grand cleric get if you don't have the DLC.

[Rodia Driftwood]

Those decisions are made long before the production even begins.

[Fast Jimmy]

According to early leaked versions of the script, Jahvik was the Catalyst, not the Citadel. He was the component needed to fire the Crucible.

So I'd say he wasn't a late addition, at least in terms of "hey, we want to do a Prothean companion who is the sole survivor."

[Hiemoth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

According to early leaked versions of the script, Jahvik was the Catalyst, not the Citadel. He was the component needed to fire the Crucible.

So I'd say he wasn't a late addition, at least in terms of "hey, we want to do a Prothean companion who is the sole survivor."

And this claim isn't true. There has been no proof that Javik was supposed to be the Catalyst. As has actually been stated in this very thread, it is due to a misreading of a scene in the leaked script. I fail to see how that plan would even have been feasible even if it had been true.

Now, I cannot say that Javik wasn't originally planned to have filled Vendetta's role and if it was, there are several reasons they might have changed plans on that. Primary being that Vendetta comes along pretty late in the game and thus would have been weird to add a character at that point. But unless very clear evidence can be provided, Javik was never meant to be the Catalyst.

[Hiemoth]

Aaleel wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Do you have proof that Sebastian and Javik were cut for profit? Even though Javik has interesting lines of dialogue, everything he does feels isolated to me except for Horizon, so in a design sense he is easily removable. Unlike James if they finished James involvement around the Tutorial that would have needed to be redesigned and re-animated to fit another character and if they are cutting content to get ready for shipping that wouldn't an option for they would just make more work.  Now any of the other crew members were turned into DLC could you imagine what the outcry would have been if someones "favorite character" was put behind a paywall. BioWare hurt themselves in my opinion with trying to included every possible squadmember from the previous two games in Mass Effect 3, for it looks like it left them very little room to cut content when reaching the crunch.

I didn't play any Dragon Age: Origins DLC until much later so I can't argue how important Sebastian was to the people that played Awakening, but maybe Sebastian was the character that was the least distance along in the development cycle when something needed to be cut.

Sebastian's DLC was a good chunk of the 3rd Act storyline.  Leliana's appearence, the rogue faction of mages from the tower fraternity, the entire part of the story where you're urging the grand cleric to flee Kirkwall for her own safety because evil things are in the works.  Alot of the grand cleric's appearence is due to the DLC.

I don't mind cutting out characters who were self contained in their DLC.  But Sebastian was obviously cutting out story as well.  He may not have been in the game from the start but his story is interwoven through the 3rd act of the game.

I really want to see what the game looked liked if you didn't purchase the DLC.  Did Leliana really just walk out at the end with no foreshadowing.  How nuch screen time does the grand cleric get if you don't have the DLC.

I don't really agree that the Sebastian DLC scenes in act 3 expand on the story that much, especially since most of the scenes are really on tangential to the central conflict of that act. I mean, if they really would want to restore cut content, I suspect it would have been more related to Orsino, who was much more important character for the conflict, yet was left with the weakest motivation.

Instead, I felt that those scenes in act 3 were more on laying the base for the intended expansion for DA2. We had Leliana appearing and warning that the Chantry will take action. A new faction unrelated to the current schism was introduced. Another large power center in the area, Starkhaven, was introduced. I feel those all things would have played out in the expansion.

I thought the only DA2 related thing fleshed out by the expansion was Elthina, but not in a crucial way.

[Eurypterid]

Plaintiff wrote...

whereas CDProjeket attempted to adapt The Witcher for consoles and failed.

Just clarifying this point: CDPR farmed the console port out to a French company that couldn't deliver. Basically soaked CDPR out of a crapton of cash and then said they couldn't do it. Was CDPR ultimately respnsible? Yes, but it wasn't them that directly failed to adapt the game to consoles.

Plaintiff wrote...

So it seems it can be a sustainable practice.

Two games isn't proof of "sustainable" anything.

It's worth noting though, that W3 is coming out as well as the Cyberpunk game (of course neither are out yet) but there's no reason to suspect they won't be released. So maybe sustainability isn't fully established yet, but there can be no arguing that their business approach is successful.

There seems to be some kind of weird competition on these boards between people with regards to BioWare and CDPR. I personally don't get it, since a comparison of the two is (beyond the obvious fact that they both produce similar genres of games) somewhat of a stretch given the difference in sheer size of the two companies.

[The Twilight God]

Sanunes wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Do you have proof that Sebastian and Javik were cut for profit?

Yeah. the same proof you have: That people are required to pay extra if they don't preorder. They were ALL cut for profit, but the others simply had a more reasonable reason. I'm not pre-ordering DA:I which means I wouldn't get the free character. As I refuse to pay extra I simply would never get DA:I (until it was in the bargain bin).

When you look at Javik and the interpersonal dialog he has with, say, Liara. It becomes clear that he was created back when the voice actors were all there doing the rest of the game. I'm not sure if you recall, but initially he was leaked well before release. Some people didn't like the idea of a Prothean squadmate. Remember that ordeal? The forums called him "Prothy the Prothean". Bioware, in typical lying fashion, denied him of course. Later they cut him for DLC. But he was written into the game from the get go. Originally, when they were in pre production Javik was actually the Catalyst (the Crucible needed a Prothean) and played a more crucial role. I may be mistaken (this may have been another day1 DLC I'm thinking about), but I believe Javiks's dialog and stuff were already on the disc. You just needed the origin to unlock the content and/or fill in a few gaps in the file folder to make it playable.

As for Sebastian. Another poster already explained him. Now days a lot of day1 DLC is actually on the disc at the time of release if you check the files.

[Fast Jimmy]

There seems to be some kind of weird competition on these boards between people with regards to BioWare and CDPR. I personally don't get it, since a comparison of the two is (beyond the obvious fact that they both produce similar genres of games) somewhat of a stretch given the difference in sheer size of the two companies.

I'm not one who likes to pit Bioware and CDProjekt against one another, but it does stand to point out... if a smaller, leaner company can put out a product that it just as successful financially (TW2 sold comparably to DA2), of the roughly the same (or, as some would argue, better) quality and not having what many see as anti-consumer policies like Pad DLC (let alone Paid D1DLC), then does it stand to reason that the smaller company would be seen as a better business model?

It seems like a valid point to bring up when people say video game developers have to use Paid DLC and microtransactions to make a profit, when that's not the case for CDProjekt.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:53 .

[LinksOcarina]

Aaleel wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Sebastian and Javik were clearly cut for added profit. No if's, and's or but's. I think by the time DA2 came out Day1 DLC was just a matter of intentional design. I got him fro free from Amazon preorder for $49.99 before EA starting upping their price to $59.99. Micro transactions will be the future as long as consumers lack the willpower to express discontent with their wallets and thus make it profitable for companies to nickel and dime.

Do you have proof that Sebastian and Javik were cut for profit? Even though Javik has interesting lines of dialogue, everything he does feels isolated to me except for Horizon, so in a design sense he is easily removable. Unlike James if they finished James involvement around the Tutorial that would have needed to be redesigned and re-animated to fit another character and if they are cutting content to get ready for shipping that wouldn't an option for they would just make more work.  Now any of the other crew members were turned into DLC could you imagine what the outcry would have been if someones "favorite character" was put behind a paywall. BioWare hurt themselves in my opinion with trying to included every possible squadmember from the previous two games in Mass Effect 3, for it looks like it left them very little room to cut content when reaching the crunch.

I didn't play any Dragon Age: Origins DLC until much later so I can't argue how important Sebastian was to the people that played Awakening, but maybe Sebastian was the character that was the least distance along in the development cycle when something needed to be cut.

Sebastian's DLC was a good chunk of the 3rd Act storyline.  Leliana's appearence, the rogue faction of mages from the tower fraternity, the entire part of the story where you're urging the grand cleric to flee Kirkwall for her own safety because evil things are in the works.  Alot of the grand cleric's appearence is due to the DLC.

I don't mind cutting out characters who were self contained in their DLC.  But Sebastian was obviously cutting out story as well.  He may not have been in the game from the start but his story is interwoven through the 3rd act of the game.

I really want to see what the game looked liked if you didn't purchase the DLC.  Did Leliana really just walk out at the end with no foreshadowing.  How nuch screen time does the grand cleric get if you don't have the DLC.

To the first quote, that is supposition, not proof.

To help out here, this is usually what companies do for DLC with characters.

1) It is decided the character isen't working, or isen't finished yet for the game, so they transform it to DLC. This is what happened with Javik and Shale specifically, and Kasumi was a placeholder who was unfinished but planned for Mass Effect 2. 

2) It is decided that a DLC character will be made from the ground up. Zaeed and Sebastian were this, I believe. As was the Monk from Jade Empire, if you count him. 

Either way, a couple of things occur. The characters are integrated into the game and usually intertwined in the story to reflect their necessity in-game. Shale had a whole lovely bit during the Anvil of the Void that was not important to the plot at all, but gave insight to the world itself.  By design this is done so you get more bang for your buck. I remember people complaining about Zaeed for this very reason, actually.

Same with Javik throughout his time in Mass Effect 3, he was interwoven into the plot (and was originally essential to the plot before a script change) so downsizing his role and making him DLC makes sense, otherwise he wouldn't exist as a character. Sebastian and the ties with the Grand Cleric and Leliana are mostly filler, albiet good filler, that gives the situation more gravitas and importance.

Based on how they work, I would say Sebastian was planned DLC from the start. I heard people complain about the character ( I don't get why, I thought he was a good character) for not being special enough to not being necessary to the story before, to the exact opposite. I will say this, BioWare is likely going to continue the trend because its both profitable, and the chance to add new flavors into the mix that are not necessary, but make the game fun. 

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There seems to be some kind of weird competition on these boards between people with regards to BioWare and CDPR. I personally don't get it, since a comparison of the two is (beyond the obvious fact that they both produce similar genres of games) somewhat of a stretch given the difference in sheer size of the two companies.

I'm not one who likes to pit Bioware and CDProjekt against one another, but it does stand to point out... if a smaller, leaner company can put out a product that it just as successful financially (TW2 sold comparably to DA2), of the roughly the same (or, as some would argue, better) quality and not having what many see as anti-consumer policies like Pad DLC (let alone Paid D1DLC), then does it stand to reason that the smaller company would be seen as a better business model?

It seems like a valid point to bring up when people say video game developers have to use Paid DLC and microtransactions to make a profit, when that's not the case for CDProjekt.

Not necessarily.

See, CD Projekt Red did didn't make a profit on the first Witcher game, they make their profit off of GOG.com, which is their subsidiary. Kind of like the Steam to their Valve if you will. Because of that, it gives them capital to have breathing room for their game development. Witcher 2 was successful in this regard because of a marketing push they could now afford, not to mention the porting to consoles over the PC, which helped boost awareness of the company.

Both games combined made about 5 million total in sales. Which I believe is on par, again, with Dragon Age as a series combined. Maybe a little more due to multi-platforming. I don't know. 

I would argue the two companies are on par with each other, as are their games. They have differences that set them apart and that is mostly by design, so there really is no reason to favor one over the other. If you like both or hate one, then there is no discussion here. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 17 décembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[DarthLaxian]

manbobjoe wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

It'll probably be the most interesting companion to be put behind a paywall.

I did not think Shale, Sebastian, or Javik were "the most interesting" companions in their respective games so I have no reason to believe the day 1 DLC character will be at all superior to the other companions present.

well, Javik and Sebastian aren't all that cool, but Shale certainly is IMHO (but i thought you got her with each new copy of DA:O, so there is no pay-wall IMHO)

as for DLC-Companions:

i don't have a problem with them (at least not if they aren't day one DLC (or released within weeks of the game-launch!)), if they offer really new content, deeper insights into the lore, another perspective on a situation AND even influence the outcome (that is what i hate about most regular DLC - you get something really groundbreaking but in the end it does not matter? (ME3-Leviathan for example!!! - not that i played that one, but i read about it and saw some footage!))

greetings LAX
ps: cut content (if you can more or less see the seams were they did cut, that's were i draw the line (nothing infuriates me more then being milked like a cow for every buck!)

[Aaleel]

So if you say that Sebastian was not part of the main story you're saying that the original vanilla game called for Leliana to just walk out in the final cutscene with no foreshadowing or reason why she was even there. I can't see that honestly, but OK.

I'm not talking just the character but the DLC as a whole.  Some stuff would just make no sense without his DLC.

Modifié par Aaleel, 17 décembre 2013 - 09:03 .

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Sebastian was also a very big part of one of the big "choices" at the end, meaning the weight of your decision was much greater if you chose to let Anders live.

Compare this to Zaeed whose story is completely self-contained and doesn't affect the story at all, it's pretty obvious they cut Sebastian from the main game.

[PMC65]

Aaleel wrote...

So if you say that Sebastian was not part of the main story you're saying that the original vanilla game called for Leliana to just walk out in the final cutscene with no foreshadowing or reason why she was even there. I can't see that honestly, but OK.

I'm not talking just the character but the DLC as a whole.  Some stuff would just make no sense without his DLC.

I just now downloaded Sebastian so I've only experienced Leliana at the end. I didn't even realize that it was her.

[Eurypterid]

Aaleel wrote...

So if you say that Sebastian was not part of the main story you're saying that the original vanilla game called for Leliana to just walk out in the final cutscene with no foreshadowing or reason why she was even there. I can't see that honestly, but OK.

I'm not talking just the character but the DLC as a whole.  Some stuff would just make no sense without his DLC.

I'll just chime in to say I don't have the Sebastian DLC and can't recall anything that made me scratch my head and wonder (at least, nothing that has to do with him being in the game or not). Take this with a grain of salt though, as I don't recall Leliana even being in the game. All I recall is a letter from her. Maybe she only appears in the Sebastian DLC?

[Aaleel]

Eurypterid wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

So if you say that Sebastian was not part of the main story you're saying that the original vanilla game called for Leliana to just walk out in the final cutscene with no foreshadowing or reason why she was even there. I can't see that honestly, but OK.

I'm not talking just the character but the DLC as a whole.  Some stuff would just make no sense without his DLC.

I'll just chime in to say I don't have the Sebastian DLC and can't recall anything that made me scratch my head and wonder (at least, nothing that has to do with him being in the game or not). Take this with a grain of salt though, as I don't recall Leliana even being in the game. All I recall is a letter from her. Maybe she only appears in the Sebastian DLC?

yeah that's my point.  The DLC explains why she is there and the dangers surrounding the grand cleric.  She's just there for no reason without it.

[Thesandman87]

darkchief10 wrote...

I hope they cut out the ending and sell it for 40 bucks day one, if only to watch bsn burn up like so many gasoline soaked washcloths

don't give them that idea, remember EA pulls the strings, and EA would do this.

[Eurypterid]

Aaleel wrote...
yeah that's my point.  The DLC explains why she is there and the dangers surrounding the grand cleric.  She's just there for no reason without it.

I think you mnisunderstand: I don't recall her in the game at all other than a letter you receive from her. That's it. So, she's just not there at all without the DLC.  Again, it's been a long while since I played through the game and I only played it once, but I don't recall her being in the vanilla game at all.

So my point is, there's nothing to explain if she only appears with the DLC, and therefore the Sebastian story doesn't leave a Leliana issue if you don't have the Sebastian DLC. Am I just misremembering?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Thesandman87 wrote...

darkchief10 wrote...

I hope they cut out the ending and sell it for 40 bucks day one, if only to watch bsn burn up like so many gasoline soaked washcloths

don't give them that idea, remember EA pulls the strings, and EA would do this.

Didn't EA originally want to charge for the ME3 extended cut ending DLC? im sure i read that somewhere.