169 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

See, CD Projekt Red did didn't make a profit on the first Witcher game, they make their profit off of GOG.com, which is their subsidiary. Kind of like the Steam to their Valve if you will.

And kind of like EA's Origin... so why can the developer of one company with a digital distribution model padding sales and revenue do things the other cannot?

[Aaleel]

Eurypterid wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
yeah that's my point.  The DLC explains why she is there and the dangers surrounding the grand cleric.  She's just there for no reason without it.

I think you mnisunderstand: I don't recall her in the game at all other than a letter you receive from her. That's it. So, she's just not there at all without the DLC.  Again, it's been a long while since I played through the game and I only played it once, but I don't recall her being in the vanilla game at all.

So my point is, there's nothing to explain if she only appears with the DLC, and therefore the Sebastian story doesn't leave a Leliana issue if you don't have the Sebastian DLC. Am I just misremembering?

so she's not in the last cutscene after Cassandra gets done with Varric?  I don't know, I always wondered.  But that one is pre-rendered so I thought everyone got the same one.

[Eurypterid]

Aaleel wrote...

so she's not in the last cutscene after Cassandra gets done with Varric?  I don't know, I always wondered.  But that one is pre-rendered so I thought everyone got the same one.

I don't recall seeing her, but again, my memory could be at fault.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Threat300 wrote...
Didn't EA originally want to charge for the ME3 extended cut ending DLC? im sure i read that somewhere.

That's pretty dirty if true, considering the EC is around seven minutes and doesn't have any gameplay attached to it.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

See, CD Projekt Red did didn't make a profit on the first Witcher game, they make their profit off of GOG.com, which is their subsidiary. Kind of like the Steam to their Valve if you will.

And kind of like EA's Origin... so why can the developer of one company with a digital distribution model padding sales and revenue do things the other cannot?

For one, the distribution models aren't the same. Origin benefits EA the publisher, not BioWare the developer. They may get a cut but it might be less than you expect. Because Valve and CD Projekt Red are independent, they get If I am not mistaken, 70% of the profits from digital sales on their distribution platforms, with the rest going to publishers/developers. 

It is a big discrepency there. That said, you are right, there is no reason neither can do things. I would argue they have though, but thats a discussion for another day.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 17 décembre 2013 - 11:30 .

[Mark of the Dragon]

They don't usually. They make new content for most DLC. In cases of DLC like Omega the content is not actually cut to make DLC, it was cut because it caused issues in the game itself. If they use older plans it is because they had issues implementing it in the original game or they did not have time to develop the content to make it the best it can be.

Sometimes DLC is a good alternative to giving us content that we would have never got to see otherwise . I know a lot of people see DLC as a conspiracy theory and accuse publishers of removing the "best" content to make it but I do not think it’s true. I like having extra content that increases the life time of a game, as long as the content is interesting.

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

[Il Divo]

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

And it was something tossed out at Leviathan and even Citadel. There were demands that such content should be part of the base game.

Which places Bioware in a bit of a bind since the best way to produce a sale is to make interesting content while certain individuals, because content is viewed as critical, want it for free.

[PMC65]

Eurypterid wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

so she's not in the last cutscene after Cassandra gets done with Varric?  I don't know, I always wondered.  But that one is pre-rendered so I thought everyone got the same one.

I don't recall seeing her, but again, my memory could be at fault.

As someone who just downloaded the DLC but never played it, yes ... the scene with her is at the end with Cassandra. Now I am really interested in seeing what Sebastian's DLC adds.

[DRTJR]

Il Divo wrote...

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

And it was something tossed out at Leviathan and even Citadel. There were demands that such content should be part of the base game. 

Which places Bioware in a bit of a bind since the best way to produce a sale is to make interesting content while certain individuals, because content is viewed as critical, want it for free. 

These players are entitled ****s, If it is after the game goes gold an it is worth the price then their justified in the cost. Although the should release a free hourse armor DLC. 

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

And it was something tossed out at Leviathan and even Citadel. There were demands that such content should be part of the base game.

Which places Bioware in a bit of a bind since the best way to produce a sale is to make interesting content while certain individuals, because content is viewed as critical, want it for free.

I'd toss that at Leviathan too,. Javik was just a twist "Hey, what you thought you knew about the Protheans was wrong" but Leviathan actually adds some insight to the Reapers origins before starkid spitting out a vague explanation.

My 10 years plus of hanging around BIoWare forums is that they have been and always will be in some sort of bind. Damned if they do damned if they don't. Even Shale and such had many complaining about how greedy and horrible BioWare was because they bought the game secondhand and then needed to pay for it or how it was tied to the previous owner and should of transferred to them.

At the end of the day the buck stops with me if I will buy the DLC or even the base game.

[cjones91]

DRTJR wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

And it was something tossed out at Leviathan and even Citadel. There were demands that such content should be part of the base game. 

Which places Bioware in a bit of a bind since the best way to produce a sale is to make interesting content while certain individuals, because content is viewed as critical, want it for free. 

These players are entitled ****s, If it is after the game goes gold an it is worth the price then their justified in the cost. Although the should release a free hourse armor DLC. 

The entitled card is so played out by now it's not even funny.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:00 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

DLC only irritates me when it breaks a previous trend (Javik, whereas the ME2, DAO, and DA2 characters were free with regular edition purchase) or IS actually something you've already paid for (Leliana's Song and Witch Hunt being entirely reused levels from DAO, DAA and other DLC).

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Unfortunately the best DLC usually gets the most accusation. Anything that is remotely interesting gets accusations of being mandatory to understanding the basic plot of a game. A good example is ME3’s Javik. He definitely made the game better but I did not use him on my first two playthroughs and understood the main plot just as well without his presence. It seems that the only thing developers can do to avoid the venom is to make crappy DLC.

And it was something tossed out at Leviathan and even Citadel. There were demands that such content should be part of the base game.

Which places Bioware in a bit of a bind since the best way to produce a sale is to make interesting content while certain individuals, because content is viewed as critical, want it for free.

I'd disagree with a few things here.

One, Jahvik was deemed as valuable simply because he was Prothean - a race that has been the focal point of the lore for two games. Everything to do with both games revolved around this race... either finding the Conduit hidden on a Prothean planet in ME1 or fighting the mutated remains of the Protheans with the Collectors... the Protheans have permeated every facet of the series. To sell the one Prothean you'd ever truly meet is going to be met with criticism, regardless of how integral they would be to the over arching story.

Two, ME3'a endings were so horribly perceived by fans that they were constantly looking for further elaboration and development of them, even after the EC. I'm sure many people remember the holdouts of the IT mindset, or its more "business-casual" cousin, the Puzzle DLC Theory. Fans were left wanting more than the bare-bones explanation and wrap up of a 100+ hour trilogy, so any further DLC that elaborated the Catalyst's logic (Leviathan) or gave closure to fans with their squadmates (Citadel) should totally be expected for fans to say "this shoiud have been in the main game." Because, essentially, that is saying "the endjngs shouldn't have been this bad, even with the EC." That's an indictment of the poorly received (and, in my opinion, conceived and executed) endings, not Boware's DLC model. Note that you didn't mention Omega in this... mainly because Omega is a standalone mission, not tying to the poorly done endings or providing closure to a series that ended abruptly and violently, leaving fans feeling hollow and jaded. It was just content, content that stood or failed on its own merits. Which is how DLC should (in theory) work.

This isn't a case of "Bioware is darned if they do and darned if they don't," I assure you. It is strictly a case of "focus on making your base game so solid that any additional content will feel like extra, not that it was content that was missing."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

The entitled card is so played out by now it's not even funny.

If it looks like, walks like and quacks like a duck.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The entitled card is so played out by now it's not even funny.

If it looks like, walks like and quacks like a duck.

Except that duck was stomped on,shot,and then brought back to life to get stomped on some more.I've actually grown to hate the word now since people were misusing it.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:16 .

[Fast Jimmy]

LinksOcarina wrote...

For one, the distribution models aren't the same. Origin benefits EA the publisher, not BioWare the developer. They may get a cut but it might be less than you expect. Because Valve and CD Projekt Red are independent, they get If I am not mistaken, 70% of the profits from digital sales on their distribution platforms, with the rest going to publishers/developers. 

It is a big discrepency there. That said, you are right, there is no reason neither can do things. I would argue they have though, but thats a discussion for another day.

But still - it is a matter of one business model being better than another, at least in the eyes of the consumer. EA has a distribution system that they share a certain amount of revenue with (or maybe not, I don't know) their developer studios.

CDProjekt does the same thing with its distribution system. The percentages are perhaps different, the overheads not the same, the revenue streams slightly modified, but the base components are all the same. If one can offer a popular product, free long-term support (including things like a toolkit and free DLC and enhanced versions), as well as a successful digital distribution model AND make enough money to not just keep the lights on, but expand their business more every year, then it's a pretty solid case that one model is better than another... unless, of course, your model is not designed to make games, but to provide the absolute highest shareholder value for next quarter (and next quarter alone, in many cases). In that case, the EA model will have the better (short term) success... at the expense of long-term fan goodwill, of course. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[addiction21]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This isn't a case of "Bioware is darned if they do and darned if they don't," I assure you. It is strictly a case of "focus on making your base game so solid that any additional content will feel like extra, not that it was content that was missing.  

Well DAO tends to be held up as the last "quality game" by many around here.

How do you want to explain the outrage of Wardens Keep being "extra" and how it should of been included for free.

Its always damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to paid DLC dating back to NWN and premium modules.

The only "out" I see is to make it all free or make none at all..

[Fast Jimmy]

addiction21 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This isn't a case of "Bioware is darned if they do and darned if they don't," I assure you. It is strictly a case of "focus on making your base game so solid that any additional content will feel like extra, not that it was content that was missing.  

Well DAO tends to be held up as the last "quality game" by many around here.

How do you want to explain the outrage of Wardens Keep being "extra" and how it should of been included for free.

Its always damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to paid DLC dating back to NWN and premium modules.

The only "out" I see is to make it all free or make none at all..

That's a totally viable strategy. If the game made you a lot of money, keep making content which will sell new copies (simply due to the fact that people will still be playing and talking about it). 


That being said, the number of people complaining about Warden's Keep is infinitesimally smaller than those who complained about From Ashes. If you really want to argue that, do a Google search for Warden's Keep - you'll see strategy guides or reviews. Do a Google search on From Ashes - you'll see countless rants, articles, blogs and other media talking about how the D1DLC model is reviled by fans and is resulting in things like EA winning The Worst Company in Ameirca award (I don't want to discuss this award, I'm merely bringing up what will come up when you do that Google search). Or, barring that, you'll find YouTube videos and instructions on how to unlock a large chunk of this DLC character for free by changing on value on the PC version of the game which will unlock the content on the disc.

So things are a little bit of a "night and day" situation than Bioware was in back in 2009 when DA:O came out and they were giving away free DLC with purchases and today, where they are demonized as being one of the biggest abusers of the DLC model.

[Dave of Canada]

Shale helps with the dwarven situation but she isn't mandatory, it's fairly independent. Came free with every new copy, minimal complaints.

Sebastian is fairly necessary, he offers a lot of screen time for Justinia that you'd otherwise not get and helps the finale along. The fact that you couldn't recruit him in Act 1 hurts, though. Came with every special edition copy that was free if you preordered prior, a lot of complaints.

Javik is deeply integrated into the lore of the universe, explains a lot about the Reaper conflict and he has more dialogue than some core companions. Free if you purchase the Collector's Edition, otherwise you're stuck paying the full price. Saying there was a lot of complaints is an understatement.

DA:I might step-up and just not give out the DLC companion at all.

[David7204]

What does Javik explain about the Reapers that the player doesn't know without him?

[addiction21]

Fast Jimmy wrote...



That being said, the number of people complaining about Warden's Keep is infinitesimally smaller than those who complained about From Ashes. If you really want to argue that, do a Google search for Warden's Keep - you'll see strategy guides or reviews. Do a Google search on From Ashes - you'll see countless rants, articles, blogs and other media talking about how the D1DLC model is reviled by fans and is resulting in things like EA winning The Worst Company in Ameirca award (I don't want to discuss this award, I'm merely bringing up what will come up when you do that Google search). Or, barring that, you'll find YouTube videos and instructions on how to unlock a large chunk of this DLC character for free by changing on value on the PC version of the game which will unlock the content on the disc.

So things are a little bit of a "night and day" situation than Bioware was in back in 2009 when DA:O came out and they were giving away free DLC with purchases and today, where they are demonized as being one of the biggest abusers of the DLC model.

I just did. "Mass Effect 3 From Ashes" "From Ashes" and "From Ashes Mass Effect 3" I saw nothing of what you describe. Untill I hit page 10 or so.

"Biggest abusers of DLC" I guess you missed Levi standing in your camp asking for money to do his DLC? 

Its the same Echo chamber just more people yelling.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd disagree with a few things here.

One, Jahvik was deemed as valuable simply because he was Prothean - a race that has been the focal point of the lore for two games. Everything to do with both games revolved around this race... either finding the Conduit hidden on a Prothean planet in ME1 or fighting the mutated remains of the Protheans with the Collectors... the Protheans have permeated every facet of the series. To sell the one Prothean you'd ever truly meet is going to be met with criticism, regardless of how integral they would be to the over arching story.

And yet, your understanding of ME3 would not be lessened the slightest bit without Javik's presence. I bought the ME3 Collector's Edition so Javik was provided free, but I didn't install him until my second playthrough. There was no point where I thought to myself "it feels like I'm missing something critical". That I consider the Protheans so intriguing is exactly what would make such an idea great dlc.

Note that you didn't mention Omega in this... mainly because Omega is a standalone mission, not tying to the poorly done endings or providing closure to a series that ended abruptly and violently, leaving fans feeling hollow and jaded. It was just content, content that stood or failed on its own merits. Which is how DLC should (in theory) work.

I specifically didn't mention Omega for a reason. The exact model which you recommend for Omega is exactly the sort of thing which would have lost Bioware a sale, at least from me.

I could use Lair of the Shadow Broker or Arrival as examples too of content which fans have demanded be given for free. My point is: content which someone deems valuable or significant to the main quest is more likely to generate interest rather than content which is a complete throw away.

Overall, I'd rather Bioware be producing paid dlc in the style of Lair of the Shadow Broker or Leviathan, which piques my interest, over dlc in the style of Bringing Down the Sky or Omega which are clearly irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 décembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

addiction21 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...



That being said, the number of people complaining about Warden's Keep is infinitesimally smaller than those who complained about From Ashes. If you really want to argue that, do a Google search for Warden's Keep - you'll see strategy guides or reviews. Do a Google search on From Ashes - you'll see countless rants, articles, blogs and other media talking about how the D1DLC model is reviled by fans and is resulting in things like EA winning The Worst Company in Ameirca award (I don't want to discuss this award, I'm merely bringing up what will come up when you do that Google search). Or, barring that, you'll find YouTube videos and instructions on how to unlock a large chunk of this DLC character for free by changing on value on the PC version of the game which will unlock the content on the disc.

So things are a little bit of a "night and day" situation than Bioware was in back in 2009 when DA:O came out and they were giving away free DLC with purchases and today, where they are demonized as being one of the biggest abusers of the DLC model.

I just did. "Mass Effect 3 From Ashes" "From Ashes" and "From Ashes Mass Effect 3" I saw nothing of what you describe. Untill I hit page 10 or so.

Page 10? I highly doubt that. After the wiki and the EA technical help page, I'm shown a GameBanshee review, that kicks off the review talking about the D1DLC controversy. Followed by a cinemablend article talking about how to unlock the character for free. Of the first four search results that pop up, two of them discuss the D1DLC negatives. 

"Biggest abusers of DLC" I guess you missed Levi standing in your camp asking for money to do his DLC? 

Its the same Echo chamber just more people yelling.

I did, actually. I never had him in my camp. One of the benefits of not activating any online components or patches at all - the DLC gremlins never get in to bug you.

That being said, while prompting players to buy a quest is not great, that doesn't somehow make subsequent DLC grabs more palpatble. And the fact that more people are yelling is exactly part of the problem - usually, when more people yell, the bigger the problem is.

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

And yet, your understanding of ME3 would not be lessened the slightest bit without Javik's presence. I bought the ME3 Collector's Edition so Javik was provided free, but I didn't install him until my second playthrough. There was no point where I thought to myself "it feels like I'm missing something critical". That I consider the Protheans so intriguing is exactly what would make such an idea great dlc.

Yet "understanding" has nothing to do with it. It's a Prothean. The most talked about species in the entire series, even moreso than the living ones. It's "Prothean artificat this" or "Prothean ruins that" through the trilogy. ME3 is even about building the Prothean's version of the Crucible and discovering what it does and what the Catalyst is to activate it. 

If the entire trilogy is built around the concept of a mythical race and then you dangle the ability to not only meet one, but to actually have them as a companion (meaning multiple conversations and development)... and then you slap a price tag on that, you're going to get complaints. I don't care if Jahvik couldn't be unlocked until after the Reaper invasion was over - you're going to get complaints. It's a bit of a d!ck move, honestly.

Note that you didn't mention Omega in this... mainly because Omega is a standalone mission, not tying to the poorly done endings or providing closure to a series that ended abruptly and violently, leaving fans feeling hollow and jaded. It was just content, content that stood or failed on its own merits. Which is how DLC should (in theory) work.

I specifically didn't mention Omega for a reason. The exact model which you recommend for Omega is exactly the sort of thing which would have lost Bioware a sale, at least from me.

I could use Lair of the Shadow Broker or Arrival as examples too of content which fans have demanded be given for free. My point is: content which someone deems valuable or significant to the main quest is more likely to generate interest rather than content which is a complete throw away.

Overall, I'd rather Bioware be producing paid dlc in the style of Lair of the Shadow Broker or Leviathan, which piques my interest, over dlc in the style of Bringing Down the Sky or Omega which are clearly irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.

The difference here is that ME2 can stand alone just fine. LOTSB and Arrival are extra content... Leviathan actually explains who and how the Catalyst, prime antagonist of the entire trilogy was created. When the antagonist is introduced in the last ten minutes and throws more curveballs than the World Series, having this piece of information is key.

As for Citadel, this was a chance to say goodbye to the characters fans had grown to love over the series. To get a feeling for where they wound up in the crazy galaxy and get one last chance to stand by some of them as not only squadmates, but as friends. If you ask me, that should have been a goal of ME3 from the get go. Heck, the entire "rec room" on the Normandy for ME3 practically BEGGED even a mini-version of Citadel happening. And so I can definitely understand people complaining that it's what they wanted the original ME3 experience to be like (and, hence, that it should have been included in the base game). 

I don't have a problem with DLC that is "good" or "ties into the main story" but it only works when players are satisfied with the base game. Otherwise, it just seems like you are trying to piecemeal out and charge for what fans had been expecting in the first place.

[addiction21]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Page 10? I highly doubt that. After the wiki and the EA technical help page, I'm shown a GameBanshee review, that kicks off the review talking about the D1DLC controversy. Followed by a cinemablend article talking about how to unlock the character for free. Of the first four search results that pop up, two of them discuss the D1DLC negatives. 

Oh that is my fault then I was looking for

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 you'll see countless rants, articles, blogs and other media talking about how the D1DLC model is reviled by fans

Not "discuss negatives"  of a model you hate and you would like to see stopped.

Fast Jimmy wrote...


That being said, while prompting players to buy a quest is not great, that doesn't somehow make subsequent DLC grabs more palpatble. And the fact that more people are yelling is exactly part of the problem - usually, when more people yell, the bigger the problem is.

Or there are more people in the pool so there are just that many more people yelling what you like to hear. So you focus on those that share your perception and only add value to them.

Sorry but the only way I see DLC being palatable is for it to not exist of be free.