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[Fast Jimmy]

addiction21 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


That being said, while prompting players to buy a quest is not great, that doesn't somehow make subsequent DLC grabs more palpatble. And the fact that more people are yelling is exactly part of the problem - usually, when more people yell, the bigger the problem is.

Or there are more people in the pool so there are just that many more people yelling what you like to hear. So you focus on those that share your perception and only add value to them.

Sorry but the only way I see DLC being palatable is for it to not exist of be free.

Except that DA:O sold more than DA2. And was close to ME3 sales numbers. So why would there suddenly be less people complaining about it in 2009/10 when there would have been roughly close to the same number of "swimmers" in 2012 when ME3 came out?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 décembre 2013 - 03:09 .

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Yet "understanding" has nothing to do with it. It's a Prothean. The most talked about species in the entire series, even moreso than the living ones. It's "Prothean artificat this" or "Prothean ruins that" through the trilogy. ME3 is even about building the Prothean's version of the Crucible and discovering what it does and what the Catalyst is to activate it. 

If the entire trilogy is built around the concept of a mythical race and then you dangle the ability to not only meet one, but to actually have them as a companion (meaning multiple conversations and development)... and then you slap a price tag on that, you're going to get complaints. I don't care if Jahvik couldn't be unlocked until after the Reaper invasion was over - you're going to get complaints. It's a bit of a d!ck move, honestly.

Built around the concept of a mythical race? The whole point of ME1 is that the protheans aren't important in themselves. They're just the latest victims in a string of 20,000 or thereabouts.

Some prothean scientists did something important once, of course.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 décembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[Eurypterid]

PMC65 wrote...

As someone who just downloaded the DLC but never played it, yes ... the scene with her is at the end with Cassandra. Now I am really interested in seeing what Sebastian's DLC adds.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the DLC with regards to this discussion once you've played it.

[addiction21]

So those that didn't buy DA2 ceased to exist? The 500k to 1 million more people that bought ME3 is not more then DAO?

ANd just going to agree to disagree because I don't feel like going around the same circles we all have done many times before.

And I need to get to bed.

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Yet "understanding" has nothing to do with it. It's a Prothean. The most talked about species in the entire series, even moreso than the living ones. It's "Prothean artificat this" or "Prothean ruins that" through the trilogy. ME3 is even about building the Prothean's version of the Crucible and discovering what it does and what the Catalyst is to activate it. 

If the entire trilogy is built around the concept of a mythical race and then you dangle the ability to not only meet one, but to actually have them as a companion (meaning multiple conversations and development)... and then you slap a price tag on that, you're going to get complaints. I don't care if Jahvik couldn't be unlocked until after the Reaper invasion was over - you're going to get complaints. It's a bit of a d!ck move, honestly.

Built around the concept of a mythical race? The whole point of ME1 is that the protheans aren't important in themselves. They're just the latest victims in a string of 20,000 or thereabouts.

Some prothean scientists did something important once, of course.

Even after the myth is dispelled, they are still repeatedly shown as being important to the narrative, not to mention to being the most likely source of a solution to the Reapers. And they deliver, with the archive in Mars containing the plans for the Crucible, as well as giving information about what the Catalyst is.

Regardless, it doesn't matter how integral Jahvik is to the game's main plot. The mere fact that he is a Prothean will make people be angry that his content costs extra outside the base game. If Bioware didn't foresee that whiplash coming a mile away, then I question their sanity, let alone their business sense.

[Fast Jimmy]

addiction21 wrote...

So those that didn't buy DA2 ceased to exist? The 500k to 1 million more people that bought ME3 is not more then DAO?

ANd just going to agree to disagree because I don't feel like going around the same circles we all have done many times before.

And I need to get to bed.

Sweet dreams!

[Paul E Dangerously]

One of the reasons Warden's Keep got so much hate was because it had a fairly vital component - item storage - stuck in a paid DLC. People whined about Levi and all, but that's the actual issue involved.

[AlanC9]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

One of the reasons Warden's Keep got so much hate was because it had a fairly vital component - item storage - stuck in a paid DLC. People whined about Levi and all, but that's the actual issue involved.

Oh... right. Forgot about that.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Even after the myth is dispelled, they are still repeatedly shown as being important to the narrative, not to mention to being the most likely source of a solution to the Reapers. And they deliver, with the archive in Mars containing the plans for the Crucible, as well as giving information about what the Catalyst is.

 Important to the plot for transmitting the previous cycles' work, sure, but that doesn't make the protheans themselves important. They're as relevant to the situation in ME3 as my ISP is to this post. My ISP is Verizon. Is that information of interest?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Grieving Natashina]

 I only got DA2 in January of this year, so I remember the core game quite well.  I picked up the DLC stuff after I had knocked out my first play through. I found Leliana's presence a plesant surprise and I was able to apply some logic to her being there.  I have left her alive in all of my sessions with Origins, and, given her faith as well as her history as a bard, her presence at the end made sense.  I was more reeling from the bombshell that the Warden had gone missing as well as Hawke.

I didn't feel like Sebastain was all that interesting, and that the scenes with the Grand Cleric and Leliana could have been done without him. FWIW, I am not ripping on the character.  Quite the contrary, it was nice to see someone devout that was reasonable, and did not talk down to anyone.  Sebastian even got Fenris to think, and give a decent response. He was honestly one of the best religious characters I've ever seen.   That was never my issue with him, and I think it's his saving grace as a character.

He was just...boring and frankly redunant.  I almost always have Varric in my party and I generally play an archer as well.  By the time I get him, I'm pretty well settled into my group.  Usually it's Varric, Anders/Fenris with Isabella and Aveline rounding out the extras.  I found the cameo by Leliana and the scenes with the cleric far more interesting than him, except for his archery tree that I may or may not have used via console cheats:bandit:.

For the most part, I just leave him at the Chantry.  Occasionally I do drag him around town to hear the banter he has among the other companions.

As with DA2, I didn't get the Origins DLC until after I had finished the core game. Whereas I felt that Sebastian was somewhat of an afterthought, Shale was a different story.  I felt that Shale really added a lot to Origins and (ironically) fleshed out even more of the background of the dwarves.  Plus, her sense of humor and perspective kept me chuckling in every replay I've done in the game.  That is a character I wouldn't mind seeing again in future installments, but I digress.

Directly on topic, others have stated it more articulately than I ever could have.  Most of the time, it isn't about a "cash grab," it's about what could go out on time.  They might have something/someone most of the way done, but can't finish it in time for the game's launch.  Personally, I'd rather have them take the time they need to give the players a polished product than have something completely buggy and half finished.  In the end, I honestly don't mind playing a couple of extra dollars to have some of those extras.  

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[Bleachrude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 Note that you didn't mention Omega in this... mainly because Omega is a standalone mission, not tying to the poorly done endings or providing closure to a series that ended abruptly and violently, leaving fans feeling hollow and jaded. It was just content, content that stood or failed on its own merits. Which is how DLC should (in theory) work.

This isn't a case of "Bioware is darned if they do and darned if they don't," I assure you. It is strictly a case of "focus on making your base game so solid that any additional content will feel like extra, not that it was content that was missing."

I disagree with this because fans have complained about the relatively stand alone nature of such things... Part of why Omega is the lowest ranked of the 4 ME3 DLCs _IS_ the fact that it basically is extraneous and there is no real connection to the main storyline.

I agree with others that good DLC is one that feels like it SHOULD be part of the main game...the same thing was always said about Lair of the Shadow Broker as well... 

[Ziegrif]

If BW wants to dish out DLC well...

1. Anything other than costume DLC or stuff that Saints Row 3 and 4 get.

2. If they're gonna release a character like Javik that can make the next playthrough of teh game different, for example take Javik with you on Thessia and the little tidbit of how he shifts the game here or there can be a fun little thing. But don't release a companion like this immediately at launch as it'll give the avid players a new reason to play the game again LATER  just to see what happens when a new character is thrown in the pot.

3. If you're gonna cut content leave no trace of that it was there in the first place. People will dig the files adamantly. They will know and there will be a reaction. For example Javik was playable without actually buying the DLC. He was there.

4. Less nickle and dime, more expansion. No teasers about DLC in the main game please. Nothing is more aggravating than WANNA GO ON THIS ADVENTURE?! WELL TOUGH NUTS! BUY THIS DLC! Also for Thors sake no this please:


5. If you're gonna do something that the consumer hates. DON'T. GET. CAUGHT.

6. Make a complete GOTY whatever pack that can be bought retail as there are, shock and horror, people who either refuse or can't buy through Origin for one reason or other.

7. If multiplayer DLC is happening everytime it has to be paid for the MP community will be split. Try to  make it free and compensate with Microtransactions. Oh and as far away as you can from ME3s microtransaction BS please.

Well that's my 2 cents.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 19 décembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Bleachrude]

Er..to actually have DLC characters that integrate into the main storyline, you actually have to have placeholders in them...

He was like Kasumi in that you could use his model and his powers but none of his dialogue was present and neither did the game respond as if he was actually there...

Javik is like Shale..non-essential but a nice addition to both the game and the lore of the world.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Bleachrude wrote...

He was like Kasumi in that you could use his model and his powers but none of his dialogue was present and neither did the game respond as if he was actually there...

Kasumi was a she, not a he.

[Fast Jimmy]

Bleachrude wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 Note that you didn't mention Omega in this... mainly because Omega is a standalone mission, not tying to the poorly done endings or providing closure to a series that ended abruptly and violently, leaving fans feeling hollow and jaded. It was just content, content that stood or failed on its own merits. Which is how DLC should (in theory) work.

This isn't a case of "Bioware is darned if they do and darned if they don't," I assure you. It is strictly a case of "focus on making your base game so solid that any additional content will feel like extra, not that it was content that was missing."

I disagree with this because fans have complained about the relatively stand alone nature of such things... Part of why Omega is the lowest ranked of the 4 ME3 DLCs _IS_ the fact that it basically is extraneous and there is no real connection to the main storyline.

I agree with others that good DLC is one that feels like it SHOULD be part of the main game...the same thing was always said about Lair of the Shadow Broker as well... 

My meaning was to say that the base game shouldn't be so bad that people feel that any content that ties into the main game at all was sorely needed. 

Witch Hunt tied into the main game of DA:O. Just like LOTSB and Arrival did. But their base games stood just fine on their own without them. ME3 did not - there were huge gaps in understanding the Catalyst, so its entire backstory was key (given in Leviathan). And the abrupt and cold way which the endings were happened, with no real contact with the companions the players had spent 3 games getting to know left many players feeling jaded, so a DLC that was nothing but having fun with them was what many had hoped me3 would be from the start - a reunion effort where everyone comes together and the trilogy is celebrated. Hence, many people feel that Citadel should have been part of the main game. 

Essentially, don't leave your endings in such dissarray that any content that comes after feels like it was needed to make the original game coherent. 

[Sanunes]

Ziegrif wrote...

If BW wants to dish out DLC well...

1. Anything other than costume DLC or stuff that Saints Row 3 and 4 get.

2. If they're gonna release a character like Javik that can make the next playthrough of teh game different, for example take Javik with you on Thessia and the little tidbit of how he shifts the game here or there can be a fun little thing. But don't release a companion like this immediately at launch as it'll give the avid players a new reason to play the game again LATER  just to see what happens when a new character is thrown in the pot.

3. If you're gonna cut content leave no trace of that it was there in the first place. People will dig the files adamantly. They will know and there will be a reaction. For example Javik was playable without actually buying the DLC. He was there.

4. Less nickle and dime, more expansion. No teasers about DLC in the main game please. Nothing is more aggravating than WANNA GO ON THIS ADVENTURE?! WELL TOUGH NUTS! BUY THIS DLC! Also for Thors sake no this please:

5. If you're gonna do something that the consumer hates. DON'T. GET. CAUGHT.

6. Make a complete GOTY whatever pack that can be bought retail as there are, shock and horror, people who either refuse or can't buy through Origin for one reason or other.

7. If multiplayer DLC is happening everytime it has to be paid for the MP community will be split. Try to  make it free and compensate with Microtransactions. Oh and as far away as you can from ME3s microtransaction BS please.

Well that's my 2 cents.

Just my opinion on a couple of your points.

2) If you mean still have Day 1 DLC (for I don't think its going to go away), but expand on a character like Javik and use them in the 2nd DLC I would have no problem with that.

3) The problem is just like Mass Effect 2 they needed to have the character select and animations on the disk otherwise they couldn't add another character.  At least that is what I took away from a BioWare post at the time, but its been so long I can't find it again.

4) I never took that screenshot as buy more DLC, but telling us there will be some.  Its a fine line and I can see how you see it that way.  I personally believe that Expansions are something that aren't going to happen very often because they happen so long after the release of the game there will be less people buying it then DLC that is released within a month of the game's launch.  I looked at the Steam Global achievement for BioShock and around 8% of the people that bought the game have completed the first mission on the Burial at Sea DLC.

6) An "ultimate edition" I think was held back in part of the dvd disk size on the 360 and the limitations of being able to install DLC off the disk, for at launch that was a technique being used to avoid "insert disk 2" by developers and it just stopped. If the missions were designed to be only done at a certain part of the game I could see it happening, but the amount of changes required to get the disk swapping to work might not have been possible.

7) I would prefer they keep microtransactions in any way possible, over charging for the DLC itself.  I think a slightly different approach would have been better as well.  I just don't want to be told there is content I have to pay for if microtransactions are included, it should be an optional way to gain something.

[Plaintiff]

Guns wrote...

If there's a companion as day 1 dlc, I will be torrenting the game.

You belong in jail.

[AlanC9]

Guns wrote...

If there's a companion as day 1 dlc, I will be torrenting the game.

Isn't this a TOS violation? Livin' on the edge, huh?

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 décembre 2013 - 07:51 .

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Witch Hunt tied into the main game of DA:O. Just like LOTSB and Arrival did. But their base games stood just fine on their own without them. ME3 did not - there were huge gaps in understanding the Catalyst, so its entire backstory was key (given in Leviathan). And the abrupt and cold way which the endings were happened, with no real contact with the companions the players had spent 3 games getting to know left many players feeling jaded, so a DLC that was nothing but having fun with them was what many had hoped me3 would be from the start - a reunion effort where everyone comes together and the trilogy is celebrated. Hence, many people feel that Citadel should have been part of the main game. 

Essentially, don't leave your endings in such dissarray that any content that comes after feels like it was needed to make the original game coherent. 

I don't see a good way to operationalize this precept. It's not like you'd ever plan to get yourself in that position in the first place.