549 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Gaider also seems to think that anyone who has an issue with all romances being available should just deal with it. Besides, people are going to create mods to make any unavailable romanceable character available to their gender anyway. I really don't see the point in keeping away content and forcing players to download mods for it.

Gaider has said a lot of things.

David Gaider...

Ah. This exact same question came up on the KotOR board, and my opinion on it is unchanged: it's not the same at all. If someone wants to go into the toolset and remove the gender checks, that's their choice. But that's not the way I wrote the romance, nor would I ever choose to write it that way. A romance between two characters of the same sex is not interchangeable with a straight romance, in my opinion... we do not live in a genderless world and neither do they, and to treat it as such would be to trivialize it. If there's going to be a gay romance then it should be with a gay character, and he or she should not be interested in getting involved with a member of the opposite sex (such as with the lesbian romance in KotOR). Removing gender checks might seem convenient
on the surface, but I'm not going to do it... the reasons to do so seem to me to lie far more in the realm of titillation than in any kind of sensitivity to our gay audience.

Link

That's a pro to having them be bi. The issue he points out is one of writing. If the character is written to be bi then that issue of sexuality in the plot is not an issue.

[leaguer of one]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I don't want playersexual LIs but if that's the case, let me take the Zevran route where I can be nice and say something like, "Thank you, but I don't swing that way". I would also like to let other companions aware of my attraction/advancing on a LI.

... Ander's....

[Lebanese Dude]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Your question hits to the exact heart of it--it's alternate realities.

The problem is that it's an alternate reality based on who you are as a person--male or female. There's a segment of their personality, who they are, however you want to define sexual orientation--that's defined by the player character. I'm not a fan of the player character having any more control over the game world than would be natural.

"Natural" doesn't apply because we are essentially shifting the entire game world and timeline when we pick our choice of player character. There is nothing inherently natural.

Also, unless you metagame, you have no clue that the LIs you pick would also be attracted to a different sex and such.

On that note, how do we know that they aren't just all bisexuals? Why is it so hard to just believe that? Fans came up with the term "playersexual". The writers wanted the LIs to be available to everyone.

Are we going to apply real life statistics to a game where people can roleplay any character they want?

EntropicAngel wrote...

We accept that Bethany will survive the opening events because you picked a rogue, but Anders is not allowed to be gay if you choose to be a male?

I see some discrepency in our logic here.

Where did I say I accepted that?

I suppose there are some people who did reject it.

Still, you can't possibly reject any notion of your choice of player character influencing the game while simultaneously accepting that your character can be roleplayed in different ways and influence the world differently depending on their choices.

It sounds a little nitpicky.

Modifié par Lebdood, 15 décembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Thrillian]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

This is quite easily fixed by making every LI bisexual, yes?  In DA:2 they were all playersexual but if in DA:I they are all bisexual, then your protagonists gender will have no bearing on the NPC's sexual orientation or personality whatsoever. Problem solved!

But it also has the problem of being less inclusive and not acknowledging gays or straights.

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

[leaguer of one]

EntropicAngel wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Wait? How is being gay or straight a personality? A personality is something that develps and changes over time. A sexual preferance is something perdetermide from birth. You can't tell who is what with personality at all being that any sexuality can have any presonality. It very bias to say that the person has to act like their sexuality to be it. A straight person can have any personality, the defining quality of the personality of a straight person?
A bi person can have any personality, the defining quality of the personality of a bi person? 
A gay person can have any personality, the defining quality of the personality of a gay person? 

I like how you completely missed the point of my comment.

It doesn't  matter what you call it (and for that matter, there are a lot of people, some I've seen here on BSN, that claim sexual "preference" is fluid, that it changes over your life). The point is that the game defines it based on the gender of the protagonist, which is a bad idea.

"and for that matter, there are a lot of people, some I've seen here on BSN, that claim sexual "preference" is fluid, that it changes over your life"
Then they are wrong. Sexual sex taste changes not preferance.  You may one day after year of being a breat man find your attracted t womans legs as well but your not going to one day after years of being straight suddenl be attracted to men. Sexual perferance is not a choice, it's an instinct.


"The point is that the game defines it based on the gender of the protagonist, which is a bad idea."
You're missing the point here. Do you have proof that they were not genuinely bi in the first place and not being player sexual?

[Lebanese Dude]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

This is quite easily fixed by making every LI bisexual, yes?  In DA:2 they were all playersexual but if in DA:I they are all bisexual, then your protagonists gender will have no bearing on the NPC's sexual orientation or personality whatsoever. Problem solved!

But it also has the problem of being less inclusive and not acknowledging gays or straights.

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

I think what Entropic Angel wants is fixed straight, gay, bisexual etc.. people because he doesn't want our choice of player character to influence the game world.

It's a fair stance, one that I actually support in theory. Still, I also don't see why making everyone bisexual should be a problem as well, if it will make everyone available for everyone at their behest.

[leaguer of one]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

"Natural" doesn't apply because we are essentially shifting the entire game world and timeline when we pick our choice of player character. There is nothing inherently natural.

Also, unless you metagame, you have no clue that the LIs you pick would also be attracted to a different sex or sexual orientation.

On that note, how do we know that they aren't just all bisexuals? Why is it so hard to just believe that? Fans came up with the term "playersexual". The writers wanted the LIs to be available to everyone.

Are we going to apply real life statistics to a game where people can roleplay any character they want?

"Natural" applies because naturally, those things DON'T change based on the player character's gender choice. That's what I'm arguing for. The game world should not shift based on your choice of player character (outside of the obligatory "this character exists in the game world").

Is there anything in the game that say they weren't bi in the first place?

[PMC65]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

This is quite easily fixed by making every LI bisexual, yes?  In DA:2 they were all playersexual but if in DA:I they are all bisexual, then your protagonists gender will have no bearing on the NPC's sexual orientation or personality whatsoever. Problem solved!

But it also has the problem of being less inclusive and not acknowledging gays or straights.

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

As a lesbian it's nice to have a Samantha Traynor in Mass Effect or as a gay male, Steve Cortez ... I think that is what they mean. But then, I could be wrong.

[leaguer of one]

Lebdood wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

This is quite easily fixed by making every LI bisexual, yes?  In DA:2 they were all playersexual but if in DA:I they are all bisexual, then your protagonists gender will have no bearing on the NPC's sexual orientation or personality whatsoever. Problem solved!

But it also has the problem of being less inclusive and not acknowledging gays or straights.

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

I think what Entropic Angel wants is fixed straight, gay, bisexual etc.. people because he doesn't want our choice of player character to influence the game world.

It's a fair stance, one that I actually support in theory. Still, I also don't see why making everyone bisexual should be a problem as well, if it will make everyone available for everyone at their behest.

But tht addes a new question? What in the story say they were not bi in the first place?

[Thrillian]

Lebdood wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

This is quite easily fixed by making every LI bisexual, yes?  In DA:2 they were all playersexual but if in DA:I they are all bisexual, then your protagonists gender will have no bearing on the NPC's sexual orientation or personality whatsoever. Problem solved!

But it also has the problem of being less inclusive and not acknowledging gays or straights.

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

I think what Entropic Angel wants is fixed straight, gay, bisexual etc.. people because he doesn't want our choice of player character to influence the game world.

It's a fair stance, one that I actually support in theory. Still, I also don't see why making everyone bisexual should be a problem as well, if it will make everyone available for everyone at their behest.

I understand his position but as you, I don't see a problem (in regards to his stance) with making every LI bisexual.  In that way, everyone has the same access to the same romance content and the NPC will retain it's individuality. win win.

[ShadyKat]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

My 2-cents:

I like characters that have defined traits and preferences. Some characters are straight, some are gay, some are bi-sexual, some people have more/less options than others because the people around them happen to have certain preferences. Sexual preference is a part of character and I don't think it should be removed from that character's identity. Some romances work out and others don't - it's not always in our hands, or, if it is, the actions required to hold onto a relationship are not always things we are willing to do. To me that is central to character and, thus, central to role-playing a character.

I hope Bioware writes characters that are complex, interesting, and have their own emotions and motivations while helping to drive the story. The romance should spring from that, not just because 'I want it to exist'.

This.
Always felt the whole everyone is "player sexual" was lazy and a cop out.  Each companion should be written in detail, with background,  motives and even sexuality in mind.

[leaguer of one]

EntropicAngel wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You're missing the point here. Do you have proof that they were not genuinely bi in the first place and not being player sexual?

Dev comments that they were "straight if you're the opposite gender" and "gay if you're the same gender."

That a comment based on perspective. Isabela still slept with Zeverin  Merrial comments she was attrated to the qunari men even if you romance her as a woman. Fenris had sex with his former master before meeting and romancing Fem Hawk. Ander's slept with Carl before meeting and romancing with Fem Hawke.

Are we really saying there character were never bi from the begining?

[Lebanese Dude]

EntropicAngel wrote...

"Natural" applies because naturally, those things DON'T change based on the player character's gender choice. That's what I'm arguing for. The game world should not shift based on your choice of player character (outside of the obligatory "this character exists in the game world").

Why not? It entirely shifts with your choice of character by influencing how others react to you. Why can't that be applied to love interests? Why is the choice of gender and its consequent romantic involvements the only one that cannot work?

I definitely can. Me being a male doesn't mean my best friend is gay. That's utterly ridiculous. However, I can choose to do certain actions that affect the world around me.

Those are two completely different things.

They aren't. Both are choices that affect the game world. The one difference is that one is instantly tangible at the point of character creation, while the other one is done after gameplay.

Still choices.

Modifié par Lebdood, 15 décembre 2013 - 07:13 .

[wolfhowwl]

leaguer of one wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You're missing the point here. Do you have proof that they were not genuinely bi in the first place and not being player sexual?

Dev comments that they were "straight if you're the opposite gender" and "gay if you're the same gender."

That a comment based on perspective. Isabela still slept with Zeverin  Merrial comments she was attrated to the qunari men even if you romance her as a woman. Fenris had sex with his former master before meeting and romancing Fem Hawk. Ander's slept with Carl before meeting and romancing with Fem Hawke.

Are we really saying there character were never bi from the begining?

Since when did we use sex that wasn't consentual as indication of someone's orientation?

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 15 décembre 2013 - 07:15 .

[Thrillian]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

I understand his position but as you, I don't see a problem (in regards to his stance) with making every LI bisexual.  In that way, everyone has the same access to the same romance content and the NPC will retain it's individuality. win win.

I WILL say that I consider everyone bi-sexual an issue of inclusivity (and thus, fairly unimportant) as opposed to a flaw in the game world, which is where player-sexuality lies.

If they choose to say they're all bi-sexual, I really won't mind. I would still argue that it's less inclusive, but only if I stumble upon a thread talking about it (like now).

And I WILL say that in general I agree with your posts and respect your opinion.  However in this case, I do feel that inclusivity (of all sexualities) is fairly important and that making all Li's playersexual worked great with me, but if some people need consistency, making all LIs bisexual works just as well.

[leaguer of one]

EntropicAngel wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That a comment based on perspective. Isabela still slept with Zeverin  Merrial comments she was attrated to the qunari men even if you romance her as a woman. Fenris had sex with his former master before meeting and romancing Fem Hawk. Ander's slept with Carl before meeting and romancing with Fem Hawke.

Are we really saying there character were never bi from the begining?

Isabella I always accepted as bi-sexual.

I've never encountered this Merril dialog. Correction on Fenris: he was raped by Denarius. And, an important point--if you're a FemHawke, Anders does not say he slept with Carl. I don't recall what it was, exactly, but the dialog is different for a male and female Hawke.

"I've never encountered this Merril dialog."
(At Lowtown)[/i] "You know, I sort of miss the Qunari. They didn't talk much, but they were easy on the eyes."
http://dragonage.wik...errill/Dialogue

"Correction on Fenris: he was raped by Denarius."
He fought to be his slave, added Hawke as a male can sleep with Fenris, brake up with him and end up sleeping with Isabela if left un romances in act 3.
"if you're a FemHawke, Anders does not say he slept with Carl. "
 That does not mean he never did if your a fem hawke it just means he never metions it.

[Thrillian]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Really?  Giving every orientation an equal opportunity at every romance option is less inclusive?  I fail to see the logic.

What you're describing--all bisexuals--does not allow gay romances or straight romances. It only allows gay-bi, straight-bi, or bi-bi.

I'm sorry but who are you to determine and regulate any romance based on the sexuality of it's participants?

If a gay man participates in a relationship with a bisexual man, what would the relationship be called?

Also If a straight woman engaged in a relationship with a bisexual man?

Believe it or not, sexuality is not always a one way street.

I'm sorry but what I described absolutely allowed for gay and bisexual relationships, as well as straight ones.   Nice try though.

Modifié par Thrillho_82, 15 décembre 2013 - 07:23 .