549 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

wright1978 wrote...
Above is why i hope they retain the playersexual approach, as i can't see a way they could provide fair acceptable levels of choice without inflating the number of LI's and thereby damaging the level of content for each.

Right. I'm not looking forward to this inflated LI approach. just look at most of the LIs in Mass Effect. Thane's romance got shafted, Steve was okay but the content was weak and so was Samantha's. It's like BW just penciled them in for a romance just to give a player one gay option. The Samara relationship doesn't look like much going on. Most of the ME2 LIs don't even join the player in ME3 and if it wasn't for the Citadel dlc they would have next to no content at all while Liara is stuffed in to fill the LIs duties. Yay for more of that in DAI.    

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

hhh89 wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

TKavatar wrote...

Please, this is BSN.

The only time we ever got along (in recent memory) was when DAI info came out at Pax, and that was only for a short time before we started bickering again.

BSN obviously needs a christmas truce

I propose a discussion about food. Expecially deep-fried food. It worked once in a topic with the same level of heated discussion (mages vs templars).

Foods better then discussions about twerking at least.

[Lebanese Dude]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

But you're saying that it's absolutely insulting to question how real it would be to have all of your companions to be bi, and when I apply a real life situation to it, you brush it off because "hey, we're talking about video games."

Pretty weak argument.

What? I never brushed it off. Your argument is completely moot to begin with so I called you out on it.

You can't apply real life demographics on video games because we are roleplaying our characters, not being them.
In addition to that, real life demographics don't apply in fantasy settings in the first place.

For example, and I'll repeat this, a gay character can play a confirmed straight girl.
You can't say:
10% of humans are LGBT, therefore only 10% of characters should be LGBT, because your PC has a much higher chance to be played as gay or straight. Therefore, it is necessary to have fair distributions of love interests who could match that.
Furthermore, elves are not humans, therefore there could theoreticaly be a 100% chance of all of them being bisexual. It is never confirmed nor denied.

When I say it is insulting to question bisexuality, i say it is insulting because people have to be convinced that it is the case.
Why not take it as a natural biological function of the person? You assume they eat and sleep therefore you assume they have a sexual orientation as well. You don't need to be told what it is nor does the character have to explicity tell you that they shag men and women in equal glee.

[Lebanese Dude]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

This discussion also brings up something else that I dislike: the need for players to experience everything in a game. It's this mindset that really messed with the Mass Effect series. The idea that a player not experiencing something because of a choice they made is bad.

Want to have the Rachni in ME3? Save them in ME1.
Want to hook up with Morrigan? Play as a dude.

Same concept, really. And yes, unlike real life, being a male or female in a Bioware game is a choice. Gotta deal with the consequences of your choice. Rogues can pick locks, Females can hook up with Allistar, Mages can heal. La-dee-dah.

This is actually very true, and I have no qualm with it.

But when it comes to the topic of sexual orientation of love interests, I'd rather have fair options for everyone than skewed options that more resemble "real life demographics", because you can simply assume that you are in an alternate reality in every playthrough.

Modifié par Lebdood, 15 décembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

lady_v23 wrote...
Err .. isn't 'playersexual' the ability to romance any LI? So no one feels alone?

It's more so "nobody ever gets locked out of anything", which is a-ok when it comes to romance and very very bad when it comes to everything else. Yay for double standards.

I don't even really care, I just want two things - constant characterization, and not being penalized for not picking the same sex option. DA2 failed both of these spectacularly, and then went onto defend legitimate criticism with the tired old "Eh, they're just bigots" excuse.

[ScarMK]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

This discussion also brings up something else that I dislike: the need for players to experience everything in a game. It's this mindset that really messed with the Mass Effect series. The idea that a player not experiencing something because of a choice they made is bad.

Want to have the Rachni in ME3? Save them in ME1.
Want to hook up with Morrigan? Play as a dude.

Same concept, really. And yes, unlike real life, being a male or female in a Bioware game is a choice. Gotta deal with the consequences of your choice. Rogues can pick locks, Females can hook up with Allistar, Mages can heal. La-dee-dah.

But...But...What if I'm not comfortable or can't identify with a male character!? 

[Hazegurl]

Doesn't ME3 just give you some random Rachni Queen if you destroyed the first one?

[Lebanese Dude]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
It's more so "nobody ever gets locked out of anything", which is a-ok when it comes to romance and very very bad when it comes to everything else. Yay for double standards.

Perhaps you should also understand that the topic of sexual orientation is a VERY hot topic in current worldwide events and we are facing a massive worldwide ideological change in regards to LGBT tolerance and acceptance. 
BioWare is doing a very commendable act and people dismissing it because it makes the game less "real" need to take a deep breathe and reorganize their priorities.
As long as BioWare prefers the "playersexual" route in order to make everything available for everyone rather than give skewed options for the sake of "realism", then I'll take that double standard and wave it proudly.

I don't even really care, I just want two things - constant characterization, and not being penalized for not picking the same sex option. DA2 failed both of these spectacularly, and then went onto defend legitimate criticism with the tired old "Eh, they're just bigots" excuse.

You turned down a very unstable guy who later ended up blowing a chantry. Were you really surprised that he would get a little pissed if you turned him down?

Seriously, take it with a grain of salt. It's Anders. Fenris only compliments you and you can completely wave it off without a penalty.

You're not a bigot for wanting no penalty at all though (although this appeals to some min/max thinking that renders any thought of realistic roleplaying moot to begin with), but you would be one for using the "ick" factor to dismiss it to begin with.

Edit: Keep in mind, being somewhat uncomfortable with a same-sex flirt is not the problem, as it is completely natural given the current state of human culture. However, a violent or disgusted reaction to it is what makes you a bigot.

Modifié par Lebdood, 15 décembre 2013 - 04:59 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Hazegurl wrote...

Doesn't ME3 just give you some random Rachni Queen if you destroyed the first one?

Is a cloned queen that turns on allied forces if saved.

[lady_v23]

@Sopa de gato.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with playersexual. People are making a big deal of something that is not that complex.

I mean really? What do you people have against someone romancing G as a male in their game, when you can romance G as a female in your game. I don't see how that ruins or affects someone's individual experience when playing the game....

[Paul E Dangerously]

Lebdood wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...
It's more so "nobody ever gets locked out of anything", which is a-ok when it comes to romance and very very bad when it comes to everything else. Yay for double standards.

Perhaps you should also understand that the topic of sexual orientation is a VERY hot topic in current worldwide events and we are facing a massive worldwide ideological change in regards to LGBT tolerance and acceptance. 
BioWare is doing a very commendable act and people dismissing it because it makes the game less "real" need to take a deep breathe and reorganize their priorities.
As long as BioWare prefers the "playersexual" route in order to make everything available for everyone rather than give skewed options for the sake of "realism", then I'll take that double standard and wave it proudly.

I don't even really care, I just want two things - constant characterization, and not being penalized for not picking the same sex option. DA2 failed both of these spectacularly, and then went onto defend legitimate criticism with the tired old "Eh, they're just bigots" excuse.

You turned down a very unstable guy who later ended up blowing a chantry. Were you really surprised that he would get a little pissed if you turned him down?

Seriously, take it with a grain of salt. It's Anders. Fenris only compliments you and you can completely wave it off without a penalty.

You're not a bigot for wanting no penalty at all though (although this appeals to some min/max thinking that renders any thought of realistic roleplaying moot to begin with), but you would be one for using the "ick" factor to dismiss it to begin with.

1) It's a very badly written scene that occurs less than five minutes after his former lover is just killed, and the Templars - the people he is trying to avoid - were just butchered in the middle of the Chantry. Even a mixed-up lunatic like Anders should have more concerns than getting into Hawke's pants, especially after he kept it in through the entirety of Awakening. Unless Justice changed that, and I doubt.
2) The only "negative" response is written -and- voice acted in a way to make Hawke sound as disgusted as possible, while there are two "positive" responses. Why is the player not allowed a more neutral reply? The writer is clearly stating a preference here, and the massive penalty to friendship/rivalry confirms that.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:03 .

[Hazegurl]

Ah, I knew there had be another version of the rachni Queen. I always choose to save the old one. I had no idea the other was a clone that will turn on everyone if saved.

[Hazegurl]

lady_v23 wrote...

@Sopa de gato.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with playersexual. People are making a big deal of something that is not that complex.

I mean really? What do you people have against someone romancing G as a male in their game, when you can romance G as a female in your game. I don't see how that ruins or affects someone's individual experience when playing the game....

+1

I'm still waiting for a legit reason as to why this knowledge somehow ruins these naysayers own game.

[Ianamus]

Lebdood wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

But you're saying that it's absolutely insulting to question how real it would be to have all of your companions to be bi, and when I apply a real life situation to it, you brush it off because "hey, we're talking about video games."

Pretty weak argument.

For example, and I'll repeat this, a gay character can play a confirmed straight girl.
You can't say:
10% of humans are LGBT, therefore only 10% of characters should be LGBT, because your PC has a much higher chance to be played as gay or straight. Therefore, it is necessary to have fair distributions of love interests who could match that.
Furthermore, elves are not humans, therefore there could theoreticaly be a 100% chance of all of them being bisexual. It is never confirmed nor denied.

I don't get why people keep saying "LGBT" when it has little to do with all of the companions being bisexual. Only one of those four letters is relevant. There are no homosexual male or female companions, or transgendered ones. Only straight ones and bisexual ones. 

And yes, while choice is good I do think that having more than half of our party members be bisexual (the least common orientation) yet not having any homosexual ones at all is weird and not the brilliant representation some people seem to be claiming it is. It's brilliant for choice, yes, but not representation. 

[Lebanese Dude]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think I understand what you're saying. Since the world we are talking about is Thedas, and not Earth, we need to apply Thedas demographics to our arguments. Also, since we do not know Thedas demographics, we therefore can not make any assumptions about this particular world, and we can not apply Earth's demographics since there are obvious areas where Thedas is not like Earth.

Also, we can not apply the preferences of our Fereldan companions to our Kirkwall or DA: I companions since, for one, they are from different areas, and for two, they are all individuals that can not be given predetermined mindsets or identites (other than what the writers want).

Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that all of the characters are bisexual, or at the very least, attracted to the strongest person on the friggin planet.

Honestly, it's pretty difficult to argue against this without further information about Thedas or the writer's intentions. In the face of this particular argument, I can't really make an argument that isn't clouded by my ideas of choices having consequences and there being a semblance of variety when the companions sexuality. Really, what the player would want comes down to their personal preferences rather than any solid in-game or in-world evidence, as this argument has shown.

I'm glad you understood and your conclusion is valid.

Frankly, I simply cannot see a good reason why we cannot assume that each playthrough has an alternate reality that is shaped by our choice of our player character.

It makes everything all the better, without this whole "playersexual"/"bisexual" mess to begin with.

[Ryzaki]

Hazegurl wrote...

Doesn't ME3 just give you some random Rachni Queen if you destroyed the first one?

Why'd you go and remind me about that mental retardation.

I just. The Reapers somehow grab a fake queen out their ASS. HOW. (They had to have a queen egg or something ot clone it).

Why couldn't there have been a alternate quest. WHY did they need to be EXACTLY the same save a few lines and the loss of a couple of WA. SO lazy.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[AresKeith]

Hazegurl wrote...

Doesn't ME3 just give you some random Rachni Queen if you destroyed the first one?

That's the point he was making, in Mass Effect Bioware tried to give players the same experience regardless of what choice they made and it failed

They shouldn't do that in games like this, players shouldn't be given everything just because they might feel left out because of a choice they made

And that includes what gender they choose and romances

[Lebanese Dude]

EJ107 wrote...

I don't get why people keep saying "LGBT" when it has little to do with all of the companions being bisexual. Only one of those four letters is relevant. There are no homosexual male or female companions, or transgendered ones. Only straight ones and bisexual ones. 

And yes, while choice is good I do think that having more than half of our party members be bisexual (the least common orientation) yet not having any homosexual ones at all is weird and not the brilliant representation some people seem to be claiming it is. It's brilliant for choice, yes, but not representation. 

Nitpick much? I was literally using a random statistic to prove a point. You could easily replace "LGBT" by bisexual and "10%" by a percentage of bisexual people in the world. Same point. Same proof.

Also your argument is off, due to reasons stated in an above post above to Mad Hanar. Check it out if you wish.

Modifié par Lebdood, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[Ryzaki]

lady_v23 wrote...

@Sopa de gato.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with playersexual. People are making a big deal of something that is not that complex.

I mean really? What do you people have against someone romancing G as a male in their game, when you can romance G as a female in your game. I don't see how that ruins or affects someone's individual experience when playing the game....

I'll never understand it either. I can somewhat sympathize with the "WHY IS EVERYONE HITTING ON ME" factor but that happens with female characters too and they don't complain then.

[Hazegurl]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

+1

I'm still waiting for a legit reason as to why this knowledge somehow ruins these naysayers own game.

I gave reasoning for why I dislike the concept. What do you think of my reasoning?

Your reasoning actually makes more sense than most. I can actually agree with it and say that if you make a choice you should stick to the consequences and shouldn't get every piece of content because you think you should. If BW is willing to lock out certain content in other aspects of the game based on player choice then I'm up for locking out romance content for certain characters based on gender and sexuality. As long as I get some good romance options with lots of great content I'm cool.

However, if BW isn't locking out other forms of content then why do it only for the romance content?

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Doesn't ME3 just give you some random Rachni Queen if you destroyed the first one?

Why'd you go and remind me about that mental retardation.

I just. The Reapers somehow grab a fake queen out their ASS. HOW. (They had to have a queen egg or something ot clone it).

Why couldn't there have been a alternate quest. WHY did they need to be EXACTLY the same save a few lines and the loss of a couple of WA. SO lazy.

I agree, it pretty tells the player that they should have saved the Rachni Queen in ME1. But if they made it all the way to ME3 then it's too late to go back and change it now. An alternate quest would had been much better. It's not like the Krogan don't have plenty of enemies to deal with.

[Akka le Vil]

Lebdood wrote...

Perhaps you should also understand that the topic of sexual orientation is a VERY hot topic in current worldwide events and we are facing a massive worldwide ideological change in regards to LGBT tolerance and acceptance. 
BioWare is doing a very commendable act and people dismissing it because it makes the game less "real" need to take a deep breathe and reorganize their priorities.

That a topic is hot doesn't justify the watering down of characterisation.
Also, it's pretty sad if you consider commendable and empowering to gay/bi that the game basically remove the gender-check. It's pretty insulting to what being gay/bi is, actually, instead of rewarding.

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think I understand what you're saying. Since the world we are talking about is Thedas, and not Earth, we need to apply Thedas demographics to our arguments. Also, since we do not know Thedas demographics, we therefore can not make any assumptions about this particular world, and we can not apply Earth's demographics since there are obvious areas where Thedas is not like Earth.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Let me quote myself about this very point :

"Why couldn't we apply real-life demographics to a video game if the video game is depicting humans ? We already apply all other elements (roughly half male and female, social and governmental constructs we can understand and which could arise only due to a very close similarity with real-life humanity, same size and physical abilities, same psychology, same expected reactions and reasonings...), there is no reason to exclude sexual preferences (in fact it would be the opposite, as many social expectations would be different if humans in Thedas had widely different sexual orientations than those of Earth)."

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:25 .