162 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

Lots of support for freedom on BSN. So I'm curious: Is it ethical to condemn the krogan based on Wreav's behavior? He seems to represent everything that is wrong with their culture, but no matter how bad the krogan are, do they deserve to be "controlled"? Because they might subjugate others, they must be subjugated. All of them. Their entire species must be violated and humiliated.

I suppose I'm asking this: Is it hypocritical to so staunchly support the freedom of various people and societies, but then support sabotaging the genophage cure because Wreav is in charge?

We should note that Mordin, who feels guilty about the genophage, can be reminded of why it was once deemed necessary and be persuaded to maintain it.

Padok Wiks, on the other hand, believes that Nature should be free, and if the natural course of things allows the krogan to dominate the galaxy, then so be it. That is as it should be. However, I think he can also be persuaded to sabotage the cure if Wreav stands alone. I'm not familiar with this situation, so I don't know how he rationalizes it.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 décembre 2013 - 11:04 .

[CosmicGnosis]

StreetMagic wrote...

I should add that this is the kind of scenario most would think of when curing the genophage. Only Shepard and a select few truly know what Wrex's potential is. But Wreav is a complete unknown to Shepard as well. Everyone already sees the Krogan in a bad light - the only thing changing your mind is Wrex. Without him, you're dealing with the same unknowns and fears as everyone.

Of course. Wrex's plans could fail, although the EC doesn't suggest it. It can be argued that the ambiguity of the original endings is superior to the relative certainty of the EC simply for the fact that it leaves all future consequences to the imagination. Will Wrex fail? Will Wreav change? 

[CosmicGnosis]

StreetMagic wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I should add that this is the kind of scenario most would think of when curing the genophage. Only Shepard and a select few truly know what Wrex's potential is. But Wreav is a complete unknown to Shepard as well. Everyone already sees the Krogan in a bad light - the only thing changing your mind is Wrex. Without him, you're dealing with the same unknowns and fears as everyone.

Of course. Wrex's plans could fail, although the EC doesn't suggest it. It can be argued that the ambiguity of the original endings is superior to the relative certainty of the EC simply for the fact that it leaves all future consequences to the imagination. Will Wrex fail? Will Wreav change? 

I doubt Wreav will change. What I'm more concerned about is whether he starts crap with humans specifically (even if you help him). He'll definitely kill other races though.

Even if Wreav doesn't change, his supporters might. Maybe their vengeance has a limit? Just as Wrex could lose support because of his liberal ideas, Wreav's supporters may grow weary of his plans for krogan domination.

[Farangbaa]

Wreav in charge? --> No cure.

Or no, I should state that differently.

When Wrex is in charge and Eve is alive, I feel like I have no other option but to cure the Krogan. I don't want to, but in that scenario I feel like I have to give them a chance.

In all other cases I sabotage. Wrex and Eve are the only Krogans I've met that seem worthy of saving.

[Daemul]

 I don't cure the genophage regardless of who's in charge. Maybe people find it easier to sabotage if Wreav is in charge but for me it makes no difference. 

I've always found it funny how if you sabotage the genophage with Wrex in charge, you only lose Clan Urdnot and Wrex himself, the rest of the Krogan clans remain in the war, It makes me wonder why we couldn't have sidestepped Wrex and Wreav and discussed an alliance with the other Krogan Clan leaders instead and in the process told Urdnot to take their ridiculous genophage cure demand and go f**k themselves. 

The other clans obviously realise that the survival of the galactic community takes precendence over curing the genophage. If Clan Urdnot could be removed out of the picture for good a proposal to modify to the genophage so that it does less damage could be put on the table as a thank you. 

[TheMyron]

If only it were possible to distribute the cure "Snap Freeze" style...

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm all for a cure of the genophage, regardless of who's in charge because I don't believe in condemning the entire Krogan race based on their leadership. If you don't cure them, their future survival is very unlikely(if the Rachni are spared their demise is guaranteed). I'm giving the Krogan a chance to make amends, I hope they don't waste it.

And if they do...well, at least the humans, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, Drell and Hanar are gonna be safe.

[KaiserShep]

Daemul wrote...

 I don't cure the genophage regardless of who's in charge. Maybe people find it easier to sabotage if Wreav is in charge but for me it makes no difference. 

I've always found it funny how if you sabotage the genophage with Wrex in charge, you only lose Clan Urdnot and Wrex himself, the rest of the Krogan clans remain in the war, It makes me wonder why we couldn't have sidestepped Wrex and Wreav and discussed an alliance with the other Krogan Clan leaders instead and in the process told Urdnot to take their ridiculous genophage cure demand and go f**k themselves.

From what I understand, the deception works temporarily with Wrex, since troops are still sent to assist the turians, even clan Urdnot. It's not until the deception finally fails, Shepard or Bailey is forced to kill Wrex, and the clan pulls out. Presumably a lot of them are already on Palaven. As for sidestepping Urdnot, how would this work exactly? Shepard doesn't exactly have a direct line to these other leaders, and is also responsible for the destruction of both clan Gatatog and Weyrloc. Besides that, how would you get any troops committed if clan Urdnot is back on Tuchanka railing against the Alliance and the turians? It's one thing once you've already got them, but no alliance was established yet, so everyone is still on Tuchanka.

It should be noted that if you sidestep Urdnot, the reaper destroyer that's commandeered the shroud will just poison the atmosphere on Tuchanka and kill them off anyway. Shepard couldn't possibly know this if the mission can be sidestepped, but needless to say, if you don't get the shroud dealt with, you lose the entirety of your krogan assets, thus lose the entirety of the turians as well. Move on to the quarians and geth, and hope that works out.

The other clans obviously realise that the survival of the galactic community takes precendence over curing the genophage. If Clan Urdnot could be removed out of the picture for good a proposal to modify to the genophage so that it does less damage could be put on the table as a thank you. 

This plan is no good. In your previous scenario, kicking Wrex/Wreav off the ship also removes Eve, since she is also a proponent of the cure. Basically, there's nothing to work with regarding even modifying the genophage, let alone curing it. According to Mordin, modifying it was significantly more challening than implementing the virus without totally wiping out the krogan, and this was during a time of relative peace. The reaper war ensures that any version of the genophage is irrelevant, as one cannot account for the potential losses during battle while trying to figure out exactly how to modify the virus so that it leaves a viable population when the conflict is over.

I don't see what's so ridiculous about this demand. Every other species is capable of repopulating with even just a few thousand survivors, whereas the krogan birth rate of 1 in 1,000 would see to it that even a remainder of 1 million krogan could make it difficult, or even impossible, to avoid functional extinction.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 décembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[AlexMBrennan]

I don't see how Wrex being alive would change anything - there is a war going on, and curing the genophage only because you hope that one specific individual will not be among the hundreds of millions of casualties is silly.

[wright1978]

There are responsibilities that go alongside privileges in freedom such as not infringing on the freedom of others. If there isn't the responsible leadership structure present to go alongside the likely birth spike curing the Genophage isn't in the best interests of a free galaxy. In that case retaining the best alternative the artificially lowered fertility of the genophage is legitimate until such time as a credible Krogan leadership candidate emerges.

That said in a galactic annihilation event that based on previous cycles may take hundreds of years having an army of extremely formidable soldiers who also breed rapidly may make any such argument about the genophage irrelevant imo.

Modifié par wright1978, 16 décembre 2013 - 01:16 .

[Barquiel]

I don't even trust Wrex implicitly. He also talks about a new krogan empire and is demanding the *return* of 10 worlds...not to mention that Wrex isn't going to live forever. I still cured the genophage in my Wrex playthrough (because I couldn't stand to shoot Mordin), but I wanted to have a long discussion with Wrex regarding birth control after the whole Genophage thing was dealt with. I always sabotage the cure if Wreav is there. He doesn't even try to hide his intentions to attack the salarians/turians (and eventually everyone else).

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 décembre 2013 - 01:15 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I support the Genophage, even with Wrex as the leader. I have utterly no faith in the Krogan whatsoever. I agree completely with the Dalatrass, though I believe that we need the Krogan for fodder due to simple necessity.

If Wreav were the leader, I wouldn't bother with the Genophage. I'd just completely wipe out the Krogan once and for all.

With Wrex, I'll be willing to give him just one chance to change his species with Eve. Just one.

And when the Krogan fail, then they get slaughtered. No second chances. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 décembre 2013 - 02:42 .

[jamesp81]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Lots of support for freedom on BSN.

Not in my experience, but YMMV.  I find it interesting how many people are completely comfortable with totalitarian behavior if it benefits them personally.

CosmicGnosis wrote...
So I'm curious: Is it ethical to condemn the krogan based on Wreav's behavior? He seems to represent everything that is wrong with their culture, but no matter how bad the krogan are, do they deserve to be "controlled"? Because they might subjugate others, they must be subjugated. All of them. Their entire species must be violated and humiliated.

It's a difficult question, but to quote a famous actor, 'deserves' has got nothing to do with it.  Normally I'd say that no, you don't condemn an entire people for the behavior of one individual.  Problem in this case is that the one individual in question is their leader and will set the tone for their entire foreign policy.  It might be that in order for others to be free, the various militaries of the galaxy will have to keep a lid on the Krogan.  After all, humans, asari, turians, salarians, and all others, have a right to live free of the predations of marauding Krogan.

Basically, I look at it like this: you can do anything you want, as long as it 'neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg'.  But if it does do one of those, then I have the right to stop you with force, either as an individual defending myself, or as a society using its armed forces to repel invaders and curtail threats by possible invaders.

CosmicGnosis wrote...
I suppose I'm asking this: Is it hypocritical to so staunchly support the freedom of various people and societies, but then support sabotaging the genophage cure because Wreav is in charge?

It's not about Wreav being in charge.  It's about what he's planning to do.  If his plans involve carpet bombing other people's cities and raiding their colonies, he should not be surprised when those he's threatening responds to that, as is their right (indeed, it is not just the right, but the duty, of human, asari, turian, etc, military forces to protect their sovereignty against such attacks).  I also (and so does a society) have the right to do this preemptively once a potential enemy's goals are clearly known.

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Padok Wiks, on the other hand, believes that Nature should be free, and if the natural course of things allows the krogan to dominate the galaxy, then so be it.

Padok Wiks is uttering nonsense.  "Nature" is not a conscious force, and does not have a grand "plan".  The only "plan" it has is natural selection, which is not a conscious plan, it's merely a consequence of a natural world that is competitive.

Supporting freedom does not mean one cedes his freedom to someone else.  Quite the opposite in fact.  Supporting freedom means you get to defend it if someone tries to take it from you.

Modifié par jamesp81, 16 décembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[DeinonSlayer]

What's that line from Mattis? "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you **** with me, I’ll kill you all."

Even with Wrex in charge, I'd want to see the Krogan quarantined to their home system post-war until their society reached a new equilibrium and were ready to be re-introduced to the galaxy, however many centuries that may be. If you haven't been inoculated, you're free to do what you want, but if you go to Tuchanka you're staying there until you sort yourselves out or destroy yourselves. The only saving grace is that they're (currently) demilitarized and need other people's ships to spread themselves.

With Wreav in charge? No, I don't think so. I'd sit on the cure, though, I wouldn't destroy it. It'd be nice if there were a middle ground between "stillbirths by the millions" and "here comes the hoard." Ideally, the cure would only go to Urdnot prior to Krogan involvement in the war, and only after the war would global dispersal even be considered. Of course, Wrex holds the war effort hostage unless the second condition is met and Shepard isn't allowed to challenge him over it...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 décembre 2013 - 03:13 .

[MR CauSe iM GoD]

Have faith in Krogan under both Wrex and Wreav. Cure genophage either way.

One Krogans action isn't everys Krogan action. Wrex or Wreav. 

Modifié par MR CauSe iM GoD, 16 décembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

MR CauSe iM GoD wrote...

Have faith in Krogan under both Wrex and Wreav. Cure genophage either way.

One Krogans action isn't everys Krogan action. Wrex or Wreav. 

Indeed.

That's why I want to purge them from the galaxy. For the sake of sanity and peace, the Krogan need to be wiped out. 

As you say, the actions of one Krogan isn't the action of every Krogan.

The actions of Wrex trying to change the Krogan are not the actions of nearly every other Krogan who want to wage war, kill things, and be violent and vengeful.

Wrex isn't going to change the Krogan. Neither is Eve. They aren't going to change what the Krogan are. Biology has made them what they are. Any peaceful Krogan died out when they nuked their own planet repeatedly. It's mentioned in the codex that the remaining Krogan were ones who were biologically dispositioned towards psychotic and unstable and very, very violent tendencies.

The Krogan, as they are, are biologically predispositioned towards rage and violence. Some may not deviate from this, but they're the exception, not the norm. Even Wrex holds a rather imperialistic view towards the rest of the galaxy.

The galaxy will be a better place with them gone.

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I support the Genophage, even with Wrex as the leader. I have utterly no faith in the Krogan whatsoever. I agree completely with the Dalatrass, though I believe that we need the Krogan for fodder due to simple necessity.

If Wreav were the leader, I wouldn't bother with the Genophage. I'd just completely wipe out the Krogan once and for all.

With Wrex, I'll be willing to give him just one chance to change his species with Eve. Just one.

And when the Krogan fail, then they get slaughtered. No second chances. 

isnt wrex and eve chance #4?

[DeinonSlayer]

@StreetMagic
I hear you. Frankly, I find the idea of the Spectres appalling. I can appreciate that there are certain jobs that you need to cut through the red tape, but autonomous, omnipotent, unaccountable agents? A government with the sheer gall to claim such a privilege should be burned to the ground.

Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Citadel Council.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 décembre 2013 - 03:57 .

[MR CauSe iM GoD]

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I support the Genophage, even with Wrex as the leader. I have utterly no faith in the Krogan whatsoever. I agree completely with the Dalatrass, though I believe that we need the Krogan for fodder due to simple necessity.

If Wreav were the leader, I wouldn't bother with the Genophage. I'd just completely wipe out the Krogan once and for all.

With Wrex, I'll be willing to give him just one chance to change his species with Eve. Just one. 

And when the Krogan fail, then they get slaughtered. No second chances. 

isnt wrex and eve chance #4?

True but I don't believing you can condemn the entire their entire race on past actions. Should we go ahead and nuke the Yagh, because they are a Brutish race and massacred the Citadels 1st contact team? No I don't think we should. All organic life is important annihilation should be very last option.

Modifié par MR CauSe iM GoD, 16 décembre 2013 - 03:46 .