162 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

In some ways, I think the writers were backed into a corner with the genophage. For one, I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to work, since the mechanism seems to change from game to game. More importantly, though, I think the writers held back quite a bit on portraying the degree to which the Krogan just have a super-violent culture as compared to everyone else. We see some crazies, like the Clan Weyrloc guy, but they can always be rationalized as just individual nutjobs. This is a problem from the point of view of giving a balanced perspective on the genophage, since the whole motivation for it was supposed to be that the Krogan's intrinsic barbarism made diplomacy impossible.

At the same time, I can see why the writers might have been reluctant to make the Krogan seem as scary as they were supposed to be, since such a portrayal might have been seen to have affinities with the "scientific" racism of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, according to which members of certain ethnic groups were just more prone to violence, less intelligent, etc. than others. It's a tough bind from a writing point of view, and I don't know what the resolution to it is.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

Modifié par osbornep, 17 décembre 2013 - 12:00 .

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...


I support the Genophage even if Wrex is the leader and Eve is alive. The only times I've cured it is so Wrex would be at the Citadel Party. But from an RP standpoint. I stand behind the Genophage. I just don't like how Wrex and Eve seem to take no responsibility for why their people got the Genophage in the first place. Eve telling me that the Krogan wander and have no choice but to be killers cause the Genophage gives them no hope is total BS.  I'm not saying she totally dismisses what the Krogan has done to make them look bad but blaming the Genophage for it is wrong.

I don't support the subjugation of the Krogan, nor do I see them as lacking in freedom because of the disease. Their numbers are just simply being reduced.

I don't think the writers address the issue of responsibility because it isn't relevant to the overall theme they're trying to convey - Chaos vs Order. Control. Etc. What they really want you to address is this - whether you're willing to control the universe around you or let it develop naturally. It isn't just about Krogan or what they did wrong or not.  It's about every big problem in this game world. Ultimately they want you to come to terms with how the Catalyst behaves. He's the ultimate controller. The ultimate meddler in Evolution.

On the other hand, a commitment to chaos means you take things a day at a time. You could come to terms with that too. To let situations arise and evolve instead of control them. You forget about what could be or should be or who did something wrong a thousand years ago, and try to treat things on a clean slate. Then let the chips fall where they may. To me, this is the real leap of faith. Not that leap of faith in the Synthesis ending.

I really think they should have focused  bit on responsibility because it takes more than Eve playing the victim card to get me onboard.  When she started blaming the Genophage, the same as Wrex did in ME1 I was done listening to them. Instead they simply tried to appeal to emotions, make demands, and promises that even they were unsure they could keep. Perhaps this would make me a Controller/Chaos type or maybe the type that sees potential threats and neutralizes them. Which is why I choose not to cure the Krogan and kill the Reapers. IMO, I think the Catalyst saw organics as a threat and wanted to get rid of them before they advanced further...or make good use out of them. I don't buy his excuses anymore than I buy Eve's. 

[Excella Gionne]

It's down to personal opinion, but I only trust Wrex and Bakara together. If one of them is alive, mostly Wrex, then I'll cure it, but Wreav and Bakara? I don't know, but I wouldn't cure it. But it all comes down to personal decision.

Don't force someone to make a decision, let them do it themselves.

[rekn2]

johnnythao89 wrote...

It's down to personal opinion, but I only trust Wrex and Bakara together. If one of them is alive, mostly Wrex, then I'll cure it, but Wreav and Bakara? I don't know, but I wouldn't cure it. But it all comes down to personal decision.

Don't force someone to make a decision, let them do it themselves.

no ones forcing anything here...

[TheMyron]

TheMyron wrote...

If only it were possible to distribute the cure "Snap Freeze" style...

That way, we only cure the individuals who prove themselves worthy instead of just everyone...

Modifié par TheMyron, 17 décembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[TheMyron]

Can you imagine what would happen/what possibilities would be opened if you secretly downloaded the information needed for the cure while on Virmire?

[KaiserShep]

TheMyron wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

If only it were possible to distribute the cure "Snap Freeze" style...

That way, we only cure the individuals who prove themselves worthy instead of just everyone...

This seems like it would be a logistical nightmare, even during peacetime. Selective screening to determine which are worthy of being given the cure would be a huge pain in iself. Also, there's no telling what impact intermingling between the cured krogan and those still living with the genophage would have on the effectiveness of the cure. Would they have to be quarantined? I don't suppose that would work, since this requires separating entire populations for however long it takes for at least 2 generations of krogan to die off.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

This seems like it would be a logistical nightmare, even during peacetime. Selective screening to determine which are worthy of being given the cure would be a huge pain in iself. Also, there's no telling what impact intermingling between the cured krogan and those still living with the genophage would have on the effectiveness of the cure. Would they have to be quarantined? I don't suppose that would work, since this requires separating entire populations for however long it takes for at least 2 generations of krogan to die off.

Make the Reapers do it. I can see it now:

Krogan... individual displays excessive brutality. Undesirable element. Recommendation euthanization.

Yeah, let's not go this route.

[Iakus]

TheMyron wrote...

Can you imagine what would happen/what possibilities would be opened if you secretly downloaded the information needed for the cure while on Virmire?

True story:  first tme I played ME1 I was actively searching for just such a terminal.

[TheMyron]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

If only it were possible to distribute the cure "Snap Freeze" style...

That way, we only cure the individuals who prove themselves worthy instead of just everyone...

This seems like it would be a logistical nightmare, even during peacetime. Selective screening to determine which are worthy of being given the cure would be a huge pain in iself. Also, there's no telling what impact intermingling between the cured krogan and those still living with the genophage would have on the effectiveness of the cure. Would they have to be quarantined? I don't suppose that would work, since this requires separating entire populations for however long it takes for at least 2 generations of krogan to die off.

Simple, Wrex and Wreav, standing on opposite sides; Wrex has proven himself, gets the cure; Wreav will verbally demand it, but won't get it. Making him prove himself will be a cool challenge... I think...

[TheMyron]

iakus wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

Can you imagine what would happen/what possibilities would be opened if you secretly downloaded the information needed for the cure while on Virmire?

True story:  first tme I played ME1 I was actively searching for just such a terminal.

Same here, I was looking for the perfect bargaining/blackmailing chip.

[Genetic Destiny]

Daemul wrote...

Going slightly off topic, Biowares stats say that in 92% of playthroughs the genophage is cured and that 64% of playthroughs have Wreav in charge of the Krogan. Now, I think everyone here knows that Wreav is crazy and is a warmonger who will seek revenge, the game makes this very obvious. So why the hell did so many people cure the genophage with him being in charge of the Krogan in the large majority of playthroughs? I swear to god if its because curing the genophage was paragon I'm going to rage.

Personally, I trust Grunt and Eve, as well as the rest of the galaxy and especially those who want any excuse to eradicate the krogan. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

First time I played ME1 I had a migraine, and a bad hair day. It was Virmire. Wrex was giving me s***. I didn't feel like negotiating. So, I shot him.

[TheMyron]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

First time I played ME1 I had a migraine, and a bad hair day. It was Virmire. Wrex was giving me s***. I didn't feel like negotiating. So, I shot him.

My first playthrough, I liked, and was hoping to appease him with the knowledge that I have in my possession the key to the cure; I wouldn't give it to him first thing though.

[elrofrost]

It's about Eve. If she lives I set the cure. If she dies,, so does the cure. Even with Wrex. Wrex needs Eve's support. Without her he's diminished.

Grunt - too bad the devs didn't play him out more. Cause he could also be a wildcard in my thinking. If Eve dies, but Grunt clearly supported Wrex, then I might chose the cure.

But really... right now I base my decision on who I want at the Citadel party. And Wrex is always a good time. So is Grunt.

[Ryzaki]

He only time I would *ever* cure he genophage with Wreav in charge is if I'm going for control. Gotta get that target practice.

Otherwise I don't cure the genophage with Wrex without Eve. (And even sometimes not even then).

[Podge 90]

Sabotaging the cure is one of my favourite decisions in ME. Strangely, I send a non-loyal Mordin with the crew to die in ME2 because I can't bear to shoot him in the back in 3. I like Wiks, though, so it's still a tough decision.

I just don't trust the Krogan. If Wrex is supposed to be one of the most level-headed Krogans, then it does not fill me with faith that they are generally culturally willing to move on from the Genophage. When Wrex confronts Shepard on the Citadel, I don't choose the Paragon or Renegade option, I chose to tell him that his people are not ready to be granted the cure. They aren't even trying to redeem themselves. Never have, never will.

Modifié par Podge 90, 17 décembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[eyezonlyii]

StreetMagic wrote...

I kind of like the Krogans' violent disposition, so I don't think they have to "redeem" themselves to begin with. It's entertaining. They definitely need to balance it a bit, but I don't think they're beyond hope.

Funnily, in many fantasy settings, I never see this kind of discussion. Everyone loves the brutish characters in that context (Barbarians and dwarves, for example). They are no different, and yet, you don't have plots that sanction genocidal measures on them. Why is it so different in Mass Effect? Why do people get into super-serious mode when it comes to this series?

Funnily, Bioware's own fantasy settings can be compared: Dragon Age, for one. You can even compare individual characters. Grunt is voiced by the same dude who does Oghren in Dragon Age. They're basically the same character. They're both berserkers. And yet, in Mass Effect, Grunt is supposedly such a terror that he needs to be controlled or kept in cryo.

I think it's because Dwarves never go planet raiding (or city raiding or whatever). If anything, they rage against other dwarves, or when they formally go into war. Not against most of the other races.

[almightydavidbc27]

You have to cure the genophage in my opinion. You can't morally make the claim that another people don't deserve to live. Those who would sacrifice their freedom for security deserve neither. If the krogan are a threat, which I don't believe, then you have to live with that. It's part of living in a free society. If you remove every risk, fear, or worry you live in a totalitarian dictatorship that condones hokocaust, slavery, and genocide. The arguments for not cuing are the same arguments made by neo****s.

[wright1978]

StreetMagic wrote...

I kind of like the Krogans' violent disposition, so I don't think they have to "redeem" themselves to begin with. It's entertaining. They definitely need to balance it a bit, but I don't think they're beyond hope.

Funnily, in many fantasy settings, I never see this kind of discussion. Everyone loves the brutish characters in that context (Barbarians and dwarves, for example). They are no different, and yet, you don't have plots that sanction genocidal measures on them. Why is it so different in Mass Effect? Why do people get into super-serious mode when it comes to this series?

Funnily, Bioware's own fantasy settings can be compared: Dragon Age, for one. You can even compare individual characters. Grunt is voiced by the same dude who does Oghren in Dragon Age. They're basically the same character. They're both berserkers. And yet, in Mass Effect, Grunt is supposedly such a terror that he needs to be controlled or kept in cryo.

I don't mind the Krogan disposition and adore Grunt for the nutcase he is. I do however have qualms about their apparent epic birth rates(which definitely sets them apart from Dwarves etc), especially without Wrex/Eve.

[DuskWanderer]

Honestly, I support the genophage, and thought Wrex's "all krogan completely abandon war and work on building", even if Eve dies, was just garbage writing.

The major difference between freedom and security is not that Wreav and the krogan are a potential threat: They are a threat. One can allow a person to buy a gun, but one would not sell a gun to someone in the shop talking day and night how they are going to slaughter people as soon as they have the gun.

The major problem with Wrex's scenario is that, for a culture as brutally tribal and bloodthirsty as the krogan, all of them abandoning war doesn't make sense? Wreav was not alone in his plan for vendetta, and, in a shoehorned attempt to make the genophage look like the only moral choice, the writers completely ignored it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

wright1978 wrote...


I don't mind the Krogan disposition and adore Grunt for the nutcase he is. I do however have qualms about their apparent epic birth rates(which definitely sets them apart from Dwarves etc), especially without Wrex/Eve.

That's definitely more worrisome.

Speaking as a player though (rather than in universe/in character), I'll just say it's kind of ridiculous. If Bioware wants to create a race that is that powerful (evolutionary speaking) AND can reproduce at the rates they do, then to hell with it. It's like the Reapers in a way, where they brainstormed ways to make them a threat in every way imaginable. After a certain point, I stop caring.

They are kind of like rabbits, who reproduce often but die young. The high birth rate is probably an adaptation to a dangerous environment. So, at least to me it makes sense if I think about it like that.