162 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

That is just ridiculous. Is Wrex the narrator now? Is what he says not sacred truth? No. It seems to need ot learn to tell the difference between what characters say and what the story says.

It's perfectly reasonable and justified for him to be optimistic. Even if he's wrong.

Modifié par David7204, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

osbornep wrote...

In some ways, I think the writers were backed into a corner with the genophage. For one, I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to work, since the mechanism seems to change from game to game. More importantly, though, I think the writers held back quite a bit on portraying the degree to which the Krogan just have a super-violent culture as compared to everyone else. We see some crazies, like the Clan Weyrloc guy, but they can always be rationalized as just individual nutjobs. This is a problem from the point of view of giving a balanced perspective on the genophage, since the whole motivation for it was supposed to be that the Krogan's intrinsic barbarism made diplomacy impossible.

At the same time, I can see why the writers might have been reluctant to make the Krogan seem as scary as they were supposed to be, since such a portrayal might have been seen to have affinities with the "scientific" racism of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, according to which members of certain ethnic groups were just more prone to violence, less intelligent, etc. than others. It's a tough bind from a writing point of view, and I don't know what the resolution to it is.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

The issue I found is how the Genophage devolved into a simple black and white scenario. Throughout Mass Effect's predecessors, you could take a predominantly neutral stance, in particular regarding ME2, whereas in ME3 any opinion not supporting a cure wholesale seemed to be subtlety hinted as wrong. Understandably, Wrex is bias on the subject, even if his opinion seems to have notably changed to hardline cure support.

I will say, Victis puts up the best argument both in favor and against the cure. Until that point we knew little of the brutality of the Krogan rebellion. He is in many ways similar to the player on the fence, thus giving pause to think. The Dalatras is useless, though I suspect her emotional response was intended. Her opinion works because of what Victis says.

Overall, I don't have too much to nitpick from the Genophage saga beyond the above. I support it, though because of Wrex, the Krogan deserve one chance. Eve only bolsters that, while Wreav can lead the Krogan to extinction.

Now what I do pick apart more is Rannoch because the Quarian are not only portrayed as hilariously racist to the now pure and innocent Geth. They are fundamentally incompetent and if it were not for the need for war assets and Tali, I would allow their idiocy to doom their species.

Not only do they start a war in the midst of a Galaxy wide genocide. They lacked the logistics to even win that war to begin with. Xen came up with a new scrambling device to give them an edge, and they never anticipated the Geth would find a counterattack of some sort?

[wright1978]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


The issue I found is how the Genophage devolved into a simple black and white scenario. Throughout Mass Effect's predecessors, you could take a predominantly neutral stance, in particular regarding ME2, whereas in ME3 any opinion not supporting a cure wholesale seemed to be subtlety hinted as wrong. Understandably, Wrex is bias on the subject, even if his opinion seems to have notably changed to hardline cure support.

I will say, Victis puts up the best argument both in favor and against the cure. Until that point we knew little of the brutality of the Krogan rebellion. He is in many ways similar to the player on the fence, thus giving pause to think. The Dalatras is useless, though I suspect her emotional response was intended. Her opinion works because of what Victis says.

Overall, I don't have too much to nitpick from the Genophage saga beyond the above. I support it, though because of Wrex, the Krogan deserve one chance. Eve only bolsters that, while Wreav can lead the Krogan to extinction.

Now what I do pick apart more is Rannoch because the Quarian are not only portrayed as hilariously racist to the now pure and innocent Geth. They are fundamentally incompetent and if it were not for the need for war assets and Tali, I would allow their idiocy to doom their species.

Not only do they start a war in the midst of a Galaxy wide genocide. They lacked the logistics to even win that war to begin with. Xen came up with a new scrambling device to give them an edge, and they never anticipated the Geth would find a counterattack of some sort?

Part of the problem with the Genophage is that they took the person who espoused the reasonable advocation of the genophage(mordin from ME2) & had him suddenly advocating a wholesale cure. It unbalanced any cure/not cure choice so i'm not at all surprised at the player cure statistics. I cured it based on the needs of the war coupled with a more reasonable 1st couple but if there wasn't a galactic extinction event occurring i think most of my Sheps would advocate a more targeted approach.

Rannoch reminds me a bit of DA2, in that thinking people would intrinsicially support the (Quarians/Mages), the portrayal they went for was to attempt to balance this perceived inherent standpoint.

[Bourne Endeavor]

wright1978 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


The issue I found is how the Genophage devolved into a simple black and white scenario. Throughout Mass Effect's predecessors, you could take a predominantly neutral stance, in particular regarding ME2, whereas in ME3 any opinion not supporting a cure wholesale seemed to be subtlety hinted as wrong. Understandably, Wrex is bias on the subject, even if his opinion seems to have notably changed to hardline cure support.

I will say, Victis puts up the best argument both in favor and against the cure. Until that point we knew little of the brutality of the Krogan rebellion. He is in many ways similar to the player on the fence, thus giving pause to think. The Dalatras is useless, though I suspect her emotional response was intended. Her opinion works because of what Victis says.

Overall, I don't have too much to nitpick from the Genophage saga beyond the above. I support it, though because of Wrex, the Krogan deserve one chance. Eve only bolsters that, while Wreav can lead the Krogan to extinction.

Now what I do pick apart more is Rannoch because the Quarian are not only portrayed as hilariously racist to the now pure and innocent Geth. They are fundamentally incompetent and if it were not for the need for war assets and Tali, I would allow their idiocy to doom their species.

Not only do they start a war in the midst of a Galaxy wide genocide. They lacked the logistics to even win that war to begin with. Xen came up with a new scrambling device to give them an edge, and they never anticipated the Geth would find a counterattack of some sort?

Part of the problem with the Genophage is that they took the person who espoused the reasonable advocation of the genophage(mordin from ME2) & had him suddenly advocating a wholesale cure. It unbalanced any cure/not cure choice so i'm not at all surprised at the player cure statistics. I cured it based on the needs of the war coupled with a more reasonable 1st couple but if there wasn't a galactic extinction event occurring i think most of my Sheps would advocate a more targeted approach.

Rannoch reminds me a bit of DA2, in that thinking people would intrinsicially support the (Quarians/Mages), the portrayal they went for was to attempt to balance this perceived inherent standpoint.

Agreed. Mordin's sudden support for a cure unfortunately eliminated any grey area the series had previously established - to it's disservice, I would argue. That being said, Mordin and Wrex sell the sub-plot so exceptionally well, it manages to work. Victus does help take up uncertainty position at least, though I wish they emphasised it a bit more.

Ironically, by doing that. They skewed the results to the opposite extreme and now the Quarians are generally only supported because of Tali. In fact, I do wonder if you could recruit Legion just how many people would opt to do that, even if it meant killing Tali.

[Bad King]

I never cure it, regardless of who is in charge. Krogan live for thousands of years and reproduce rapidly: it's why the krogan rebellions happened in the first place: remember, at this time krogan-council relations were at their best, but the exponential population explosions that occurred drove them to war.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

osbornep wrote...

In some ways, I think the writers were backed into a corner with the genophage. For one, I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to work, since the mechanism seems to change from game to game. More importantly, though, I think the writers held back quite a bit on portraying the degree to which the Krogan just have a super-violent culture as compared to everyone else. We see some crazies, like the Clan Weyrloc guy, but they can always be rationalized as just individual nutjobs. This is a problem from the point of view of giving a balanced perspective on the genophage, since the whole motivation for it was supposed to be that the Krogan's intrinsic barbarism made diplomacy impossible.

At the same time, I can see why the writers might have been reluctant to make the Krogan seem as scary as they were supposed to be, since such a portrayal might have been seen to have affinities with the "scientific" racism of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, according to which members of certain ethnic groups were just more prone to violence, less intelligent, etc. than others. It's a tough bind from a writing point of view, and I don't know what the resolution to it is.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

The issue I found is how the Genophage devolved into a simple black and white scenario. Throughout Mass Effect's predecessors, you could take a predominantly neutral stance, in particular regarding ME2, whereas in ME3 any opinion not supporting a cure wholesale seemed to be subtlety hinted as wrong. Understandably, Wrex is bias on the subject, even if his opinion seems to have notably changed to hardline cure support.

I will say, Victis puts up the best argument both in favor and against the cure. Until that point we knew little of the brutality of the Krogan rebellion. He is in many ways similar to the player on the fence, thus giving pause to think. The Dalatras is useless, though I suspect her emotional response was intended. Her opinion works because of what Victis says.

Overall, I don't have too much to nitpick from the Genophage saga beyond the above. I support it, though because of Wrex, the Krogan deserve one chance. Eve only bolsters that, while Wreav can lead the Krogan to extinction.

Now what I do pick apart more is Rannoch because the Quarian are not only portrayed as hilariously racist to the now pure and innocent Geth. They are fundamentally incompetent and if it were not for the need for war assets and Tali, I would allow their idiocy to doom their species.

Not only do they start a war in the midst of a Galaxy wide genocide. They lacked the logistics to even win that war to begin with. Xen came up with a new scrambling device to give them an edge, and they never anticipated the Geth would find a counterattack of some sort?

And the other thing that the writers fail to mention is that the all the ships in the Quarian Civilian Fleet have always had weapons. This is in the wikia. Look it up. Instead they have Joker make cracks like "strapping big guns on school busses" etc. Why has the Civilian Fleet been armed? It makes them very poor targets for pirates. They can hold their own until the Patrol Fleet arrives. They would have been targeted by the Geth anyway because they had weaponry. Instead the writers chose to make the Quarians look like idiots for putting Thanix weapons on the live ships to give them the firepower of dreadnoughts. They had enough of them to give the Turian fleet pause, meaning they had somewhere in the mid 30s. This is why if you destroyed the Heretics the Quarian fleet gives you around 855 war assets. If you rewrote the Heretics this drops to 525.

The Geth also had somewhere in the mid 30s in dreadnoughts, however we only see one. This gave us a false impression. The same thing holds true for the Geth, if you rewrote them you get 855 war assets. If you destroyed the Heretics this drops to 525. So I'm assuming that the mid-30s figure is total Geth, and if you destroyed the heretics the number drops to around 20.

And Thanix weapons are supposed to ignore shields except when the writers determine they don't. That one key Geth dreadnought should have been gone. Instead they made the Quarians look like complete idiots. But because this is a video game, Shepard had to be the hero and save the day.

Now with the Genophage it's pretty much the same thing. Shepard has way too much power over the fate of the Krogan. To save or not to save, that is the question. You're dealing with someone who has wiped out 300,000 Batarians and didn't lose sleep over it. And, this is chapter 3 of the story and the end of Shepard's saga. As far as you know this is it. This is the end. The name of the game is numbers. Do you really care? 

Liara found these amazing plans that said ACME Reaper Killer (some assembly required) on Mars. So we know it's a weapon that can destroy the reapers, but will it work? And will it blow up the galaxy? Do we trust the brand name ACME? This is a very important question. What if it doesn't quite work the way we'd hoped, and we need to resort to plan B which is run like hell? We seriously might have wished we'd cured the genophage.

However, we know that the Crucible is going to work, and we know that Wreav is a dumb ass, and we know that Wreav threatened to start up the Krogan rebellions again. Don't mess with someone who wiped out 300,000 Batarians and didn't lose sleep over it, Wreav. Big mistake. No, we don't cure the genophage. We talk Mordin into faking it. We get the full Krogan support, and take the Dalatrass' deal at the same time. Why? Because Eve isn't going to be able to control Wreav and his type.

[David7204]

No Julia, not all the quarian ships had weapons. Please refrain from making up ridiculous nonsense.

Secondly, it's established that the quarians have 3 liveships. Not 30.

You anaylsis is very poor.

Modifié par David7204, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

No Julia, not all the quarian ships had weapons. Please refrain from making up ridiculous nonsense.

Secondly, it's established that the quarians have 3 liveships. Not 30.

You anaylsis is very poor.

Then please tell me where the writers came up with the line from Gerrel boasting "We would even give the turians pause."

 Or was that done as an added idiocy factor.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[David7204]

First of all, that was Raan. Not Gerrel. You clearly don't have your facts straight at all.

Secondly, 'giving the turians pause' doesn't mean the quarians are equals. It merely means they're strong enough to be a threat.

Thirdly, the strength of a fleet, particularly a fleet of 50,000 ships, is going to be based on much more than dreadnoughts.

You obviously aren't very good at this at all, Julia. Why don't you leave this to people who know what they're doing?

[KaiserShep]

Get a room you two.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, that was Raan. Not Gerrel. You clearly don't have your facts straight at all.

Secondly, 'giving the turians pause' doesn't mean the quarians are equals. It merely means they're strong enough to be a threat.

Thirdly, the strength of a fleet, particularly a fleet of 50,000 ships, is going to be based on much more than dreadnoughts.

You obviously aren't very good at this at all, Julia. Why don't you leave this to people who know what they're doing?

pbbbbbt!!!!

[Sebby]

I don't support the cure with Wrex, let alone with Wreav.

Contrary to ME3's paragon whitewashing biased narrative, ultraviolent man lizards that reproduce faster than rats and show no signs of cultural reformation should not be cured of what keeps their numbers in check.

Modifié par Seboist, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:58 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Nope. With Eve alive I think there might be a chance for the krogan, but I'm not willing to take that risk. Wreav is too violent, he has too much support and influence, so he'll keep the krogan as the murderous brutes they are and simply increase their numbers and power, making them a danger to the galaxy. There's a chance that Eve, with the support of the female clan who still hold a lot of power being so united, will be able to stall the krogan arming and organising and building or buying or stealing ships, but I don't think it's that good a chance. At least with Wrex the krogan actually have a decent chance of reformation, since him and Eve are of the same mind on things.