271 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hopefully that one guy shows up.

You know, that guy that people like? That'd be cool.

Nah. He was too mean for my likings.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Evangeline did nothing but do her duty.

Evangeline's duty is to protect Thedas from magic.
Will Evangeline, by herself, be capable of preventing every single mage no longer in a Circle from harming others? Of course not, that's impossible.
Therefore, she failed in her duties; worse, she activelly aided in granting these mages the freedom to do whatever they please to the people of Thedas and killed her sworn brothers and sister sin arms in the process.
Once again, the people of Thedas are sold to the mages and this time, Maferath is a woman.

For the last time...

"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world"

http://dragonage.wik...ty_of_a_templar
^That the templars duty..

It's to both to protect the world from magic and to protect mages. And If you had not notice, none of the mages would have escaped the circle If Lambert did not stand down and listen to the Divines orders. His disobediance is more of the cause to the dissorder then Evangelines fallowing the Divines orders by 10 fold. Sorry but Lambert is the problem here. Engeline was doing her job.

She abandoned her order, her comrades and her commanding officer and you label that "following orders" Hrm? 

The moment Justina set the mages free from the White Spire her orders became invalid because she was no longer fit for command of the Templars, Furthermore Lord Seeker Lambert was well within his rights to annul the accord considering he is the head of the Seeker Order.

And again reread Asunder.

The mage murdering the tranquil and pinning it on the Templars is what kicked off the war, a Mage started the war you really should read the book its quite clear on that point.

Her duty is not to say by her order, comrades and commading officer...

This is her duty...
"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world"

"http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Order#Duty_of_a_templar

If her order,comrades and commading officer goes ageinst the duties of a templar then its a templars job to stop them and also to do her duty.

You saying this is like say it's ok to direguard the law as a cop because you partner, your department and commading office is also doing this.

Sorry but that clearly is bs.

 A templars duty is to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world. Labert disobeyed the latter part of the duties of the templars. Enangline fallowed both parts of it. Yet some how she lableed as a traitor who turned her back on everything a templar stands for....Is that being a corrupt offical the imposes their will of order on other and disreguards the right of these people?

I have one piece of advice before i respond.

Use.Spell.Check.

You really are failing to grasp that the circle does not revolve around what the Divine dictates Yes, She is in effect the commander and chief this is true but Lambert was well within his rights to assume command of the spire as acting head of the Seeker Order.

Furthermore undermining the head of your own order is treachery, killing members of your own order is betrayal.

You can agrue that the Templars were negating the first tenant of their dictates but i would agrue this.

Only when the conclave broke the very subject that had the college of cumberland shut down did Lambert intervene and then only to inform them of their tranquils murder which a mage had commited, so you painting Lambert and the templars as villians really doesn't work considering their role in most of this was reactionary.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The duty entrusted to the templars to protect mages is secondary to protecting thedas from the threat of magic.

And furthermore she is an oath breaker and a traitor.

This similar to the agrument i had regarding Colonel Stauffenberg a while back with a freind.

You can disagree with a regime and the ruler in power all you want but when you swear an oath of loyality to said man and country, you are expected to follow it, using your position to close into said leader and attempt assasination is a betrayal of a sacred trust.

And Evangeline's actions not only cost templars their lives it also let loose scores of mages upon the world.

She is a traitor worthy only of a noose and a shallow grave.

Evangeline did nothing but do her duty. Lambert's the one who deserved the noose for disrespecting the Divine, his boss.

*Spits on the Divines Slippers*

I am of the mind of Lambert.

Lady isn't fit to sit on the sun burst throne if she is aiding the rebellion and plunging the world into chaos on a whim.

If she had tried to attempt circle reform with out assisting the mages in their war i might have said lambert went a bit far in disolving the accord but as far as i am concered?

That man only had the resolve to break an agreement with a chantry to divided to stand up to a corrupt leader.

As petrice said Schism is coming and hopefully at the end of it we end up with a proper divine eh?

Corrupt? how is she corrupt? Do you understand that they would not be  a mage rebelion had he not no tried to impose his form of order and disobayed the divine.  The man push the mages to fight back and some how it's the divines fault for taking steps to protect them?
She tell him to do one thing and he disobeys, orders all the templars in the white spire to jail all the mage and when she takes step to undo it...She's the bad guy?

How does that makes sense?

When she intereferes with a duty that predates the founding of the chantry, when she intereferes with a duty that goes back to the ancient era.

Yes she is the antagonist, By aiding those mages she not only interefered with both the Seeker and Templar orders in their duties to guard mankind from magic she also enabled them to wage war upon the world.

Furthermore you clearly need to reread Asunder considering that it was a mage that lit the spark that ignited the powder keg and set the world ablaze.

She murdered the tranquil, not Lambert.

Bs. Nothing on how things were done before the chantry matters. What matter here is the laws and practaces used now. And even then those practaces before the charty were long forgotten and did not have the mages placed maditoraly in a circle. The divine told Lambert to stand down, he disobayed and puch the mages to rebel to protect themselves well after the chantry gave the mages the ok to have the conclave. 

And I does not matter who kill The tranquil, nothing justifies the action of Lambert afterwords.

How can you say Lambert was in the right when not on mage at the conclave was a bloodmage or an apostate and the chantry gave them the ok to asseble?

Thedas is a world of tradition, look at the Imperium, Fereldan, Orlais. You have these cultures and nations extending to before the first blight and relatively little has changed except dynasties.

Oh yes cracking down on mages who gather to discuss one thing and then are caught trying to seccede from the Chantry AGAIN. after murdering a templar asset in custody.

Seriously if you stopped being so "Derp Templars are evil" from a minute you would realize Lamberts actions were justified.

Traditon is not an excuse for anything.
And the assebly was already oked by the chantry and Lambert was ordered to leave them be. And they did not murder anyone. He jump to conclions.

And I'm not saying templars are evil. I'm saying peopel who miss use and wrongly impose there power are evil. Which is why I am ok with Evanglinene being she do her job properly.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Evangeline did nothing but do her duty.

Evangeline's duty is to protect Thedas from magic.
Will Evangeline, by herself, be capable of preventing every single mage no longer in a Circle from harming others? Of course not, that's impossible.
Therefore, she failed in her duties; worse, she activelly aided in granting these mages the freedom to do whatever they please to the people of Thedas and killed her sworn brothers and sister sin arms in the process.
Once again, the people of Thedas are sold to the mages and this time, Maferath is a woman.

For the last time...

"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world"

http://dragonage.wik...ty_of_a_templar
^That the templars duty..

It's to both to protect the world from magic and to protect mages. And If you had not notice, none of the mages would have escaped the circle If Lambert did not stand down and listen to the Divines orders. His disobediance is more of the cause to the dissorder then Evangelines fallowing the Divines orders by 10 fold. Sorry but Lambert is the problem here. Engeline was doing her job.

She abandoned her order, her comrades and her commanding officer and you label that "following orders" Hrm? 

The moment Justina set the mages free from the White Spire her orders became invalid because she was no longer fit for command of the Templars, Furthermore Lord Seeker Lambert was well within his rights to annul the accord considering he is the head of the Seeker Order.

And again reread Asunder.

The mage murdering the tranquil and pinning it on the Templars is what kicked off the war, a Mage started the war you really should read the book its quite clear on that point.

Derp. How dare the Divine try to prevent outright war.

Yes by letting them flee from Templar strongpoints and allowing them to gain fortified positions and garner public support.

:/ Seriously dude if you even realized how...simple that statement sounded when you compare it to BASIC military concepts you would see how the Divine did nothing but allow the mages to WAGE war.

They would have neve leaft if Lanbert did not try to break up and attack the conclave the mages were gine the ok to do which he was ordered not to do.

They were there to dicuss research, not breaking away from the chantry.

They violated the peace first, not to mention the whole murdering thing, pinning it on the templars and then using it as jusitification to start a war thing.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The duty entrusted to the templars to protect mages is secondary to protecting thedas from the threat of magic.

And furthermore she is an oath breaker and a traitor.

This similar to the agrument i had regarding Colonel Stauffenberg a while back with a freind.

You can disagree with a regime and the ruler in power all you want but when you swear an oath of loyality to said man and country, you are expected to follow it, using your position to close into said leader and attempt assasination is a betrayal of a sacred trust.

And Evangeline's actions not only cost templars their lives it also let loose scores of mages upon the world.

She is a traitor worthy only of a noose and a shallow grave.

Evangeline did nothing but do her duty. Lambert's the one who deserved the noose for disrespecting the Divine, his boss.

*Spits on the Divines Slippers*

I am of the mind of Lambert.

Lady isn't fit to sit on the sun burst throne if she is aiding the rebellion and plunging the world into chaos on a whim.

If she had tried to attempt circle reform with out assisting the mages in their war i might have said lambert went a bit far in disolving the accord but as far as i am concered?

That man only had the resolve to break an agreement with a chantry to divided to stand up to a corrupt leader.

As petrice said Schism is coming and hopefully at the end of it we end up with a proper divine eh?

Corrupt? how is she corrupt? Do you understand that they would not be  a mage rebelion had he not no tried to impose his form of order and disobayed the divine.  The man push the mages to fight back and some how it's the divines fault for taking steps to protect them?
She tell him to do one thing and he disobeys, orders all the templars in the white spire to jail all the mage and when she takes step to undo it...She's the bad guy?

How does that makes sense?

When she intereferes with a duty that predates the founding of the chantry, when she intereferes with a duty that goes back to the ancient era.

Yes she is the antagonist, By aiding those mages she not only interefered with both the Seeker and Templar orders in their duties to guard mankind from magic she also enabled them to wage war upon the world.

Furthermore you clearly need to reread Asunder considering that it was a mage that lit the spark that ignited the powder keg and set the world ablaze.

She murdered the tranquil, not Lambert.

Bs. Nothing on how things were done before the chantry matters. What matter here is the laws and practaces used now. And even then those practaces before the charty were long forgotten and did not have the mages placed maditoraly in a circle. The divine told Lambert to stand down, he disobayed and puch the mages to rebel to protect themselves well after the chantry gave the mages the ok to have the conclave. 

And I does not matter who kill The tranquil, nothing justifies the action of Lambert afterwords.

How can you say Lambert was in the right when not on mage at the conclave was a bloodmage or an apostate and the chantry gave them the ok to asseble?

Thedas is a world of tradition, look at the Imperium, Fereldan, Orlais. You have these cultures and nations extending to before the first blight and relatively little has changed except dynasties.

Oh yes cracking down on mages who gather to discuss one thing and then are caught trying to seccede from the Chantry AGAIN. after murdering a templar asset in custody.

Seriously if you stopped being so "Derp Templars are evil" from a minute you would realize Lamberts actions were justified.

Traditon is not an excuse for anything.
And the assebly was already oked by the chantry and Lambert was ordered to leave them be. And they did not murder anyone. He jump to conclions.

And I'm not saying templars are evil. I'm saying peopel who miss use and wrongly impose there power are evil. Which is why I am ok with Evanglinene being she do her job properly.

So them discussing breaking away from the chantry,  pinning murders on the templars and thus using it as justification are perfectly alright then?

Lambert misused his authority in stopping that treason? Lambert misused his authority when he imprisioned the survivors after the battle, and he again misused his authority when he called the divine out on her ruse and left to defend the spire from the escaping mages? 

Seriously i just don't see it, i don't think i ever will personally and i have been agruing this since the book came out.

[Plaintiff]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Again bringing Modern Morality and social societial values into Thedas eh?

There's nothing inherently "modern" about commonsense, logic, and basic human decency.

Even if your position was right (it's not), your arguments are terrible. Just really, really awful. Complete logial fallacies.

There's nothing inherently "good" about keeping an oath; that depends entirely on what said oath requires you to do, and Evangeline's oath requires her to kill innocents if some bigoted schmuck tells her to, so it's clearly not a very good one.

Nor is there anything inherently good about maintaining a "duty" just because it's "ancient". You're demanding that Evangeline (and really, everyone in Thedas) completely abandon their critical faculties and just continue to mindlessly tread a path of ignorance and bloodshed because "meh, it's worked out pretty well so far".

But it hasn't worked out pretty well, countless innocents have suffered and died on that path. But you ignore that, because those innocents were mages.

Imprisoning and/or killing people just because they have the potential to be dangerous is wrong, and always will be wrong. A society that needs to participate in segregation and genocide in order to survive is a society that doesn't deserve to survive.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[Steelcan]

Tear down your quote pyramids

[sandalisthemaker]

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that."

blood magic

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:25 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Again bringing Modern Morality and social societial values into Thedas eh?

There's nothing inherently "modern" about commonsense, logic, and basic human decency.

Even if your position was right (it's not), your arguments are terrible. Just really, really awful. Complete logial fallacies.

There's nothing inherently "good" about keeping an oath; that depends entirely on what said oath requires you to do, and Evangeline's oath requires her to kill innocents if some bigoted schmuck tells her to, so it's clearly not a very good one.

Nor is there anything inherently good about maintaining a "duty" just because it's "ancient". You're demanding that Evangeline (and really, everyone in Thedas) completely abandon their critical faculties and just continue to mindlessly tread a path of ignorance and bloodshed because "meh, it's worked out pretty well so far".

But it hasn't worked out pretty well, countless innocents have suffered and died on that path. But you ignore that, because those innocents were mages.

Imprisoning and/or killing people just because they have the potential to be dangerous is wrong, and always will be wrong. A society that needs to participate in segregation and genocide in order to survive is a society that doesn't deserve to survive.

I noticed alot of badmouthing my agruments, not alot of debunking them.

I saw personal interepation of them and then a dismissive statement or two against them but nothing to prove them incorrect.

So my point would be this.

I suggest you follow basic forum etiquette and attack the agrument, not the person presenting it.

Furthermore the presentation of a "Logical" Fallacies as such is complete intereptation, and its a sight better even if it happened to be true in my eye then the blanket usage of strawmen used by many of the pro mage supporters in this very thread.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The duty entrusted to the templars to protect mages is secondary to protecting thedas from the threat of magic.

And furthermore she is an oath breaker and a traitor.

This similar to the agrument i had regarding Colonel Stauffenberg a while back with a freind.

You can disagree with a regime and the ruler in power all you want but when you swear an oath of loyality to said man and country, you are expected to follow it, using your position to close into said leader and attempt assasination is a betrayal of a sacred trust.

And Evangeline's actions not only cost templars their lives it also let loose scores of mages upon the world.

She is a traitor worthy only of a noose and a shallow grave.

Evangeline did nothing but do her duty. Lambert's the one who deserved the noose for disrespecting the Divine, his boss.

*Spits on the Divines Slippers*

I am of the mind of Lambert.

Lady isn't fit to sit on the sun burst throne if she is aiding the rebellion and plunging the world into chaos on a whim.

If she had tried to attempt circle reform with out assisting the mages in their war i might have said lambert went a bit far in disolving the accord but as far as i am concered?

That man only had the resolve to break an agreement with a chantry to divided to stand up to a corrupt leader.

As petrice said Schism is coming and hopefully at the end of it we end up with a proper divine eh?

Corrupt? how is she corrupt? Do you understand that they would not be  a mage rebelion had he not no tried to impose his form of order and disobayed the divine.  The man push the mages to fight back and some how it's the divines fault for taking steps to protect them?
She tell him to do one thing and he disobeys, orders all the templars in the white spire to jail all the mage and when she takes step to undo it...She's the bad guy?

How does that makes sense?

When she intereferes with a duty that predates the founding of the chantry, when she intereferes with a duty that goes back to the ancient era.

Yes she is the antagonist, By aiding those mages she not only interefered with both the Seeker and Templar orders in their duties to guard mankind from magic she also enabled them to wage war upon the world.

Furthermore you clearly need to reread Asunder considering that it was a mage that lit the spark that ignited the powder keg and set the world ablaze.

She murdered the tranquil, not Lambert.

Bs. Nothing on how things were done before the chantry matters. What matter here is the laws and practaces used now. And even then those practaces before the charty were long forgotten and did not have the mages placed maditoraly in a circle. The divine told Lambert to stand down, he disobayed and puch the mages to rebel to protect themselves well after the chantry gave the mages the ok to have the conclave. 

And I does not matter who kill The tranquil, nothing justifies the action of Lambert afterwords.

How can you say Lambert was in the right when not on mage at the conclave was a bloodmage or an apostate and the chantry gave them the ok to asseble?

Thedas is a world of tradition, look at the Imperium, Fereldan, Orlais. You have these cultures and nations extending to before the first blight and relatively little has changed except dynasties.

Oh yes cracking down on mages who gather to discuss one thing and then are caught trying to seccede from the Chantry AGAIN. after murdering a templar asset in custody.

Seriously if you stopped being so "Derp Templars are evil" from a minute you would realize Lamberts actions were justified.

And mages not rly you can justify everything and whether you take it is up to you.I don't see why mages have to accept laws harming them and duties that is pumped by major religion as well i don't see if somone rebel against because they said that duties are duties and you have to that is thinking of ants.Rly it is fun if templar kill mage it is justice and duty then mage kill themplar this is murder and monstrosity just because church or society tells you something doesn't mean that you have to follow it and if not you are bad guy. 

If i was a law and you were my wh*** referring to the law i doubt that you would like it and traditions and laws don't make you better...

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...


You really are failing to grasp that the circle does not revolve around what the Divine dictates Yes, She is in effect the commander and chief this is true but Lambert was well within his rights to assume command of the spire as acting head of the Seeker Order.

Furthermore undermining the head of your own order is treachery, killing members of your own order is betrayal.

You can agrue that the Templars were negating the first tenant of their dictates but i would agrue this.

Only when the conclave broke the very subject that had the college of cumberland shut down did Lambert intervene and then only to inform them of their tranquils murder which a mage had commited, so you painting Lambert and the templars as villians really doesn't work considering their role in most of this was reactionary.

"You really are failing to grasp that the circle does not revolve around what the Divine dictates"

The Circle of Magi[/b] is the dominant organization for the training ofmages within nations of Thedas. It is governed and monitored by theChantry.

http://dragonage.wik.../Circle_of_Magi
The Divine[/b] is the leader of the Chantry organization 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Divine


And that counters any points or counter you have.

As for Lanbert....
The Seekers of Truth[/b] is an Andrastian order that answers directly to the Divine 
http://dragonage.wik...eekers_of_Truth


Nope, he did not. If the divine says jump he's to ask how high. He is not to disobey the divine. He did so. He is in the wrong... Point blank.

And ...
"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world"

This also means templars as well. So if there people in the templar order who are doing the wrong thing in their job and attacking mages who are fallowing the chantries rules and doing thing the chantry allows them, it a templars duty to stop them...Point blank.

Lambert is in the wrong by 3 times over. Evangleine did her duty as a templer. She is not in the wrong.

Your excuse is like saying if you're a police officer and you found out that your partner, your department and your commanding oficer were all disrguarding the law that you stopping them would be a betral to what it means to be a police officer.

That makes no sense.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[Gold Dragon]

It seems the Mage-Templar war has even spread to the forums, causing people to forget the rules about quote pyramids....

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...


So them discussing breaking away from the chantry,  pinning murders on the templars and thus using it as justification are perfectly alright then?

Lambert misused his authority in stopping that treason? Lambert misused his authority when he imprisioned the survivors after the battle, and he again misused his authority when he called the divine out on her ruse and left to defend the spire from the escaping mages? 

Seriously i just don't see it, i don't think i ever will personally and i have been agruing this since the book came out.

1.They were given the ok by the chantry to asseble. They can descuse what ever they want.
2. No one there piined anything on templars.
3. Sorry, but miss using autherity is ageinst the law no matter how you cut it. Even more so when you are told by the person it's you duty to obey tells you not to act.

4.The reason why the mages escape is because of his disobediance. If he did not act not of the mage would want to cause a rebelion. He pushed them to act more so then before.

[Hellion Rex]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that.

blood magic

It's not even true invisibility though, is it? It's just messing with people's minds and dulling their senses.

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that.

blood magic

It's not even true invisibility though, is it? It's just messing with people's minds and dulling their senses.

That's only done with blood magic...

Modifié par leaguer of one, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:34 .

[Plaintiff]

Master Warder Z wrote...
I noticed alot of badmouthing my agruments, not alot of debunking them.

I saw personal interepation of them and then a dismissive statement or two against them but nothing to prove them incorrect.

Then you can't read very well.

So my point would be this.

I suggest you follow basic forum etiquette and attack the agrument, not the person presenting it.

I haven't attacked you at all. You aren't actually reading a single word I say.

Furthermore the presentation of a "Logical" Fallacies as such is complete intereptation, and its a sight better even if it happened to be true in my eye then the blanket usage of strawmen used by many of the pro mage supporters in this very thread.

No, sorry, logic is not open to personal interpretation. Things are either logical or they are not. Your argument is not logical, it simply isn't.

Your first point is that Evangeline was "wrong" because she "broke an oath", but oaths are not inherently good, so your argument is illogical. If someone makes an oath to the KKK, do you think they should keep it forever? Do you think that breaking an oath of any kind is worse than being a member of the KKK?

Or do you think that sometimes oaths might be wrong, and that it's okay to break them?

Your other argument is that Evangeline is "wrong" because she "broke with tradition", but again, not every tradition is good. In fact, many, many traditions throughout human history were awful. In some ancient cultures it was a tradition to kill someone in order to make sure that Winter would end. Do you think that tradition should have been maintained?

Or are you willing to admit that "tradition" isn't a good enough reasosn to commit murder of innocent people?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


You really are failing to grasp that the circle does not revolve around what the Divine dictates Yes, She is in effect the commander and chief this is true but Lambert was well within his rights to assume command of the spire as acting head of the Seeker Order.

Furthermore undermining the head of your own order is treachery, killing members of your own order is betrayal.

You can agrue that the Templars were negating the first tenant of their dictates but i would agrue this.

Only when the conclave broke the very subject that had the college of cumberland shut down did Lambert intervene and then only to inform them of their tranquils murder which a mage had commited, so you painting Lambert and the templars as villians really doesn't work considering their role in most of this was reactionary.

"You really are failing to grasp that the circle does not revolve around what the Divine dictates"

"[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">The ] is the dominant [/color]organization[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)"> ] within nations of [/color]Thedas. It is governed and monitored by theChantry."

http://dragonage.wik.../Circle_of_Magi
"[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">The ] is the leader of the [/color]Chantry organization"

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Divine


And that counters any points or counter you have.

As for Lanbert....
[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">"The ] is an [/color]Andrastian order that answers directly to the Divine "

http://dragonage.wik...eekers_of_Truth


Nope, he did not. If the divine says jump he's to ask how high. He is not to disobey the divine. He did so. He is in the wrong... Point blank.

And ...
"Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world"

This also means templars as well. So if there people in the templar order who are doing the wrong thing in their job and attacking mages who are fallowing the chantries rules and doing thing the chantry allows them, it a templars duty to stop them...Point blank.

Lambert is in the wrong by 3 times over. Evangleine did her duty as a templer. She is not in the wrong.

Your excuse is like saying if you're a police officer and you found out that your partner, your department and your commanding oficer were all disrguarding the law that you stopping them would be a betral to what it means to be a police officer.

That makes no sense.

Your points were misplaced as i already stated she was in effect the commander and chief but that doesn't negate that Lamberts authority does entitle him to assume command of a circle and and adjust how it is managed. Furthermore Lambert was in effect Loyal to the chantry considering he didn't break the accord until the Divine lost her right to sit upon the throne.

So now that we have gotten past the majority of your post let me address the final concern and this will my final address considering this is just getting dull now.

No she abandoned her fellows for a woman later to be proven as much a traitor as she, i suppose thats mere hindsight but it doesn't change the fact she betrayed her oath for a orginization that later was cast aside.

It makes complete sense when you look at it in the light that the Divine was acting against the best interests of the chantry and both Templar and Seeker Orders, By enabling the mages to fight their war, by hindering the efforts of the templars and by removing chantry authority both orginizations can return to the chantry after the war upon their own terms.

Or at least that is how i view it.

[sandalisthemaker]

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that.

blood magic

t's not even true invisibility though, is it? It's just messing with people's minds and dulling their senses.

Hmmm.... Not sure. The fact that some people have caught glimpses of him and remember him enough to spread a rumor of a ghost in the tower makes me think it isn't true invisibility.  And also that his power tends to wax and wane.
But it is all blood magic because of the Litany.
What I'm wondering is if Cole was possessing a body, which I believe he was, then why/how did he just fade away completely at the end? Instead of leaving the body behind. Kind of like what happened with Wynne.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[sandalisthemaker]

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that.

blood magic

It's not even true invisibility though, is it? It's just messing with people's minds and dulling their senses.

And? Either way, you're not being detected. 

Rogues could become invisible during gameplay anyway.

[Master Warder Z_]

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
I noticed alot of badmouthing my agruments, not alot of debunking them.

I saw personal interepation of them and then a dismissive statement or two against them but nothing to prove them incorrect.

Then you can't read very well.

So my point would be this.

I suggest you follow basic forum etiquette and attack the agrument, not the person presenting it.

I haven't attacked you at all. You aren't actually reading a single word I say.

Furthermore the presentation of a "Logical" Fallacies as such is complete intereptation, and its a sight better even if it happened to be true in my eye then the blanket usage of strawmen used by many of the pro mage supporters in this very thread.

No, sorry, logic is not open to personal interpretation. Things are either logical or they are not. Your argument is not logical, it simply isn't.

Your first point is that Evangeline was "wrong" because she "broke an oath", but oaths are not inherently good, so your argument is illogical. If someone makes an oath to the KKK, do you think they should keep it forever? Do you think that breaking an oath of any kind is worse than being a member of the KKK?

Or do you think that sometimes oaths might be wrong, and that it's okay to break them?

Your other argument is that Evangeline is "wrong" because she "broke with tradition", but again, not every tradition is good. In fact, many, many traditions throughout human history were awful. In some ancient cultures it was a tradition to kill someone in order to make sure that Winter would end. Do you think that tradition should have been maintained?

Or are you willing to admit that "tradition" isn't a good enough reasosn to commit murder of innocent people?

Mmmhm well your interepation aside.

Heh i will enjoy pointing out to you logic is interpersonal by its very definition which is: "a proper or reasonable way of thinking about something" Merriam Webster Dictationary. So whom is to dicate to another person what is a proper or reasonable way of thinking of something? Unless if you are a blood mage i suppose and then you can enthrall people to reach conclusions you wish them to.

And whom are you to dictate that breaking oathes is a negative act and same with breaking away with tradiation? You can paint the whole historical strawman up all you want.  It really doesn't matter in so far that we are dicussing a fictional reality with its own history, morality and societial structuring.

and quite honestly? My interepation is no less valid then your own.

And in truth my agrument was more in so far as how she BETRAYED her orginization in so far as attacking and killing members of it, informing insurgents of the spires weakenesses and having people of her own order killed by for petty infautation with a mage.

But that doesn't change that i view both the Templar Oathes and Tradiation as good in so far as the universe i suppose.

[Hellion Rex]

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

 I'm not really certain *what* he is,

demon

"Could you please teach me how to become invisible? ' Cause I can think of all kinds of fun lucrative ways to use a talent like that.

blood magic

It's not even true invisibility though, is it? It's just messing with people's minds and dulling their senses.

And? Either way, you're not being detected. 

Jesus. I was just asking. No need to get snippy.

[Hellion Rex]

BeadyEyedTater wrote...

Some very powerful demons can manifest without a body. Remember the Baroness Pride demon from Awakening?

But it came through the mortal remains of the Baroness. Hence why it held her form before it transformed.

Modifié par eluvianix, 18 décembre 2013 - 12:45 .