271 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Did you forget the part of the Templar mandate that said "To protect the world from mages and the mages from the world?"Evangeline is what the ideal templar should be:willing to protect people from the abuses of magic while at the same time protecting the mages from the populace.

Is Evangeline, by herself, going to prevent every single mage in Thedas from harming anyone ever again?
Of course not, it's impossible. Then, not only is she not willing to protect people from the abuses of magic, she aided mages in abusing their magic.

[ChaosMorning]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Nope. I would take her over Lambert any day.

Of course; you're pro-mage. I'm sure she is a wonderful Templar for the mages since she has shown willingness to let them do whatever they please.

And don't bother pointing out out her scene at the tavern which is mad null and void when her reaction to mages plotting to separate from the only people capable of imposing restrictions upon them was "I'll allow this."

Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

Both are fair points - Evangeline does what she thinks she must - but so did Meredith and Lambert. 

Actually, the tavern scene is somewhat fair - she would be willing to strike down corruption if needed, but I can see why you would think she is too soft or that she sympathizes with the mages too much.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Not really, considering that if i desire conversation i tend with an invidual person i tend to click the "quote" button on the screen with the cursor.

People on here have the right to quote whoever and comment on what people say. If leaguer of one's response bothers you, you just ignore it.

In effect i am doing so

I did not reply to the agruments or notions because they were not his to be addressed to in the first place.

And i agree, you are allowed to quote and state whatever you wish within a forum, just not entitled to a response.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Did you forget the part of the Templar mandate that said "To protect the world from mages and the mages from the world?"Evangeline is what the ideal templar should be:willing to protect people from the abuses of magic while at the same time protecting the mages from the populace.

Is Evangeline, by herself, going to prevent every single mage in Thedas from harming anyone ever again?
Of course not, it's impossible. Then, not only is she not willing to protect people from the abuses of magic, she aided mages in abusing their magic.

She aided in giving mages a chance to prove that idea wrong. And the Templar Order is still going to be standing at the end of this war, because we still need them. At least, I think we still need them. They may need to get their act together, but they are still an integral part of this. Evangeline sure as hell can't do this alone.

Modifié par eluvianix, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:44 .

[ChaosMorning]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

No one said a solution to that whole "freedom thing" was going to be easy.

Modifié par ChaosMorning, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:44 .

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Did you forget the part of the Templar mandate that said "To protect the world from mages and the mages from the world?"Evangeline is what the ideal templar should be:willing to protect people from the abuses of magic while at the same time protecting the mages from the populace.

Is Evangeline, by herself, going to prevent every single mage in Thedas from harming anyone ever again?
Of course not, it's impossible. Then, not only is she not willing to protect people from the abuses of magic, she aided mages in abusing their magic.

She aided in giving mages a chance to prove that idea wrong. And the Templar Order is still going to be standing at the end of this war, because we still need them. At least, I think we still need them. They may need to get their act together, but they are still an integral part of this.

For once i agree with a mage supporter, Both entities need the other.

But i for one think the circle solution is still the best option presented thus far.

[Master Warder Z_]

ChaosMorning wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

No one said a solution to that whole "freedom thing" was going to be easy.

My solution is relatively simple...:innocent:

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


And you would be correct, but why we are hashing over the point of the divine being in command of the Seekers i really don't know, i already stated the Divine was in command of them, but also Lambert as Lord Seeker has considerable power, enough to literally annul the accords and summon the thirteen templar contingents across white thedas to him.

So i would agrue that rather him being at the behest of the Divine, It was far more likely that he was at her command only in so far that it suited the structuring of the chantry and seekers, Furthermore she led to the escape of the mages from the spire, any order coming from her that led to that is tantamont to treason  against the very order is in command of.

Moving along.

So Lambert heh "magically made" the mage murder the tranquil, frame Wynne's son for the crime, instigated a battle and then forced the Divine to distract him with an urgent meeting while they were escaping the spire?

Again i would agrue both the Templars and Lambert were fairly reactionary, with Lambert even going as far as to state that the research on the reversing of the right of tranqulity may even be put into effect into the future once the current crisis was out of the way, I would agrue that the Mages are clearly responsible for their situation considering all Lambert did was react.

The reason why I'm bring it it up tis that Lambert, even eith his power, does not have the authority or power to super seed, dissobey or nagate the word of the divine in any way. For him to do so is to go ageints his duties.
If the divine says stop hes to stop, end of story. If he does not the divine is open to deal with him as shes sees fit. That is her right and authority.

And no I'm not saying he framed Rhys but the way he tried to arrest him and stop the conclave was wrong and outside his authority. He had no right to stop the conclave being that the Divine herself oked it to happen no matter the reason. And he already know the issues with Rhys and Cole being the murder in the tower so he had no reasons to jump to assertins.

Lamberts reaction made things worse and were uncalled for. Had he waited till after the conclave was ended or did things more discretly, none of the conflict would of happened to this degree. 

I'm not saying he alone is wrong but he, out of 2 people, is the most wrong because of how he reacted.

How can the mages be responsible for what happen when they are doing what they are allowed to do?

The people at fault here is Lambert and Aldrin. Not the mages or the templars. Just 2 people from them.

If Lambert and Aldrin were not there, no conflict would of happened.

Odd considering he did annull the accord thus making the Divine no longer in command of the Templar and Seeker Order.

Clearly the relationship wasn't as cut and dry as you would wish it to be considering he had the power to do that. Furthermore as commander of the circle he was well within his rights to cancel the gathering considering the topic assigned to them BY the divine whom you state he could not go against, was ignored and promptly went to seccession.

And how you place Lambert upon the uppermost tier of blame when the mage murdered the tranquil and made it so combat would break out i haven't a clue but i am growing weary of debating this.

"Odd considering he did annull the accord thus making the Divine no longer in command of the Templar and Seeker Order."

Thus, proving how much of the wrong he is in and making it easier to punish him for his crimes.

And ageint, he only has the power to superseed anyone in the chantry out side of the divivne. It matter not how much power he has because he does not have any more then the divien while he is part of the chantry. Not matter how you cut it he is in the wrong.

"And how you place Lambert upon the uppermost tier of blame when the mage murdered the tranquil and made it so combat would break out i haven't a clue but i am growing weary of debating this."
 I said both Lambert and Aldrin is in the wrong. Lambert get it even more because of how he reacted. They were plenty of other ways for him to react. Aldrian manipulating him is not an excuse for how he reacted.

[ChaosMorning]

Master Warder Z wrote...

ChaosMorning wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

No one said a solution to that whole "freedom thing" was going to be easy.

My solution is relatively simple...:innocent:

Well... yes, saving them with the sword is certainly one way to do it.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

For once i agree with a mage supporter, Both entities need the other.

But i for one think the circle solution is still the best option presented thus far.

If we can fix some things in the Circle, then yes, I am all for it.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

Like mages are suddenly going to turn to blood magic just because....

If you have not gotten it yet, cirlce or not if a mage want to cause hovic or use blood magic, they are going to do it no mater what restrictions you put on them. Ironicly the more drastic retriction you put on the the more likely it will happen.Example:Kirkwall.

Them being free does not mean they are suddenly going to burn the country side. If that were true all the mages that fought the dark spawn would have burn Fereldin to a cinder.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:52 .

[ChaosMorning]

The Circle system is one of the better ways to do this, but that is how things started after the Nevarran Accord, and here we are.

How could it be changed so that both parties are willing to reform the Circle of Magi?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
She aided in giving mages a chance to prove that idea wrong. And the Templar Order is still going to be standing at the end of this war, because we still need them. At least, I think we still need them. They may need to get their act together, but they are still an integral part of this. Evangeline sure as hell can't do this alone.

Exactly, Evangeline can't do it alone. But she is alone, she did not raise a faction of Templars who believe that the Order can be more leanient while still protecting people from magic.
No, she just decided that Lambert was wrong and went about freeing the mages without a single back up plan on how to prevent them from abusing their magic. What exactly is she going to do when the next Uldred shows up? Think happy thoughts?
There is, literally, absolutely nothing keeping the mages in check. There are no longer trained soldiers capable of fighting them, the normal guardsmen can't handle and they can't even be considered criminals because they don't fall under the jurisdiction of the various monarchs. It's pure chaos and all of this thanks to Evangeline.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 décembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Did you forget the part of the Templar mandate that said "To protect the world from mages and the mages from the world?"Evangeline is what the ideal templar should be:willing to protect people from the abuses of magic while at the same time protecting the mages from the populace.

Is Evangeline, by herself, going to prevent every single mage in Thedas from harming anyone ever again?
Of course not, it's impossible. Then, not only is she not willing to protect people from the abuses of magic, she aided mages in abusing their magic.

Like mages are suddenly going to turn to blood magic just because....

If you have not gotten it yet, cirlce or not if a mage want to cause hovic or use blood magic, they are going to do it no mater what restrictions you put on them. Ironicly the more drastic retriction you put on the the more likely it will happen.Example:Kirkwall.

Them being free does not mean they are suddenly going to burn the country side. If that were true all the mages that fought the dark spawn would have burn Fereldin to a cinder.

Added, Evangline is not the only temple with the mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

ChaosMorning wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

ChaosMorning wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Like Lambert was gonna actually listen to anything the mages proposed to settle this conflict.

And the solution is to release hellgates into the countryside with nothing but their morals to prevent them from doing whatever they please?

No one said a solution to that whole "freedom thing" was going to be easy.

My solution is relatively simple...:innocent:

Well... yes, saving them with the sword is certainly one way to do it.

Well its not quite That simple but that will be apart of the process certainly.

Fiona at the very least has to die after all.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
She aided in giving mages a chance to prove that idea wrong. And the Templar Order is still going to be standing at the end of this war, because we still need them. At least, I think we still need them. They may need to get their act together, but they are still an integral part of this. Evangeline sure as hell can't do this alone.

Exactly, Evangeline can't do it alone. But she is alone, she did not raise a faction of Templars who believe that the Order can be more leanient while still protecting people from magic.
No, she just decided that Lambert was wrong and went about freeing the mages without a single back up plan on how to prevent them from abusing their magic. What exactly is she going to do when the next Uldred shows up? Think happy thoughts?
There is, literally, absolutely nothing keeping the mages in check. There are no longer trained soldiers capable of fighting them, the normal guardsmen can't handle and they can't even be considred criminals because they don't fall under the jurisdiction of the various monarchs. It's pure chaos and all of this thanks to Evangeline.

Who said it's only one templar with the mages? You do know the templar most likely split 4 ways...The mages , too.

[Master Warder Z_]

ChaosMorning wrote...

The Circle system is one of the better ways to do this, but that is how things started after the Nevarran Accord, and here we are.

How could it be changed so that both parties are willing to reform the Circle of Magi?

My idea favors making the mages unable to resist with an overly vigilant, militant circle.

But that is a short term solution, eventually compromise will need to be made, but first you need to do a stop gate solution to make sure the war doesn't just instantly resume.

[ChaosMorning]

Subjugating the mages with overly vigilant, militant Circles hasn't really worked that well before... it actually might just make the war instantly resume.

Maybe we should look back into that whole 'cheese for everyone' plan those rats had. Who know's what kind of merits it provides.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


And you would be correct, but why we are hashing over the point of the divine being in command of the Seekers i really don't know, i already stated the Divine was in command of them, but also Lambert as Lord Seeker has considerable power, enough to literally annul the accords and summon the thirteen templar contingents across white thedas to him.

So i would agrue that rather him being at the behest of the Divine, It was far more likely that he was at her command only in so far that it suited the structuring of the chantry and seekers, Furthermore she led to the escape of the mages from the spire, any order coming from her that led to that is tantamont to treason  against the very order is in command of.

Moving along.

So Lambert heh "magically made" the mage murder the tranquil, frame Wynne's son for the crime, instigated a battle and then forced the Divine to distract him with an urgent meeting while they were escaping the spire?

Again i would agrue both the Templars and Lambert were fairly reactionary, with Lambert even going as far as to state that the research on the reversing of the right of tranqulity may even be put into effect into the future once the current crisis was out of the way, I would agrue that the Mages are clearly responsible for their situation considering all Lambert did was react.

The reason why I'm bring it it up tis that Lambert, even eith his power, does not have the authority or power to super seed, dissobey or nagate the word of the divine in any way. For him to do so is to go ageints his duties.
If the divine says stop hes to stop, end of story. If he does not the divine is open to deal with him as shes sees fit. That is her right and authority.

And no I'm not saying he framed Rhys but the way he tried to arrest him and stop the conclave was wrong and outside his authority. He had no right to stop the conclave being that the Divine herself oked it to happen no matter the reason. And he already know the issues with Rhys and Cole being the murder in the tower so he had no reasons to jump to assertins.

Lamberts reaction made things worse and were uncalled for. Had he waited till after the conclave was ended or did things more discretly, none of the conflict would of happened to this degree. 

I'm not saying he alone is wrong but he, out of 2 people, is the most wrong because of how he reacted.

How can the mages be responsible for what happen when they are doing what they are allowed to do?

The people at fault here is Lambert and Aldrin. Not the mages or the templars. Just 2 people from them.

If Lambert and Aldrin were not there, no conflict would of happened.

Odd considering he did annull the accord thus making the Divine no longer in command of the Templar and Seeker Order.

Clearly the relationship wasn't as cut and dry as you would wish it to be considering he had the power to do that. Furthermore as commander of the circle he was well within his rights to cancel the gathering considering the topic assigned to them BY the divine whom you state he could not go against, was ignored and promptly went to seccession.

And how you place Lambert upon the uppermost tier of blame when the mage murdered the tranquil and made it so combat would break out i haven't a clue but i am growing weary of debating this.

"Odd considering he did annull the accord thus making the Divine no longer in command of the Templar and Seeker Order."

Thus, proving how much of the wrong he is in and making it easier to punish him for his crimes.

And ageint, he only has the power to superseed anyone in the chantry out side of the divivne. It matter not how much power he has because he does not have any more then the divien while he is part of the chantry. Not matter how you cut it he is in the wrong.

"And how you place Lambert upon the uppermost tier of blame when the mage murdered the tranquil and made it so combat would break out i haven't a clue but i am growing weary of debating this."
 I said both Lambert and Aldrin is in the wrong. Lambert get it even more because of how he reacted. They were plenty of other ways for him to react. Aldrian manipulating him is not an excuse for how he reacted.

Whom is to say that the Lord Seeker isn't premitted to disolve the accord with the chantry if it is his desire? it could very well be like in the original texan consitution redrift when it joined the united states and ceased being its own Nation.

It had a clause that allowed it to exit the union, you are under the assumption the Seekers and Templar orders do not have something similar.

And your second point is...really difficult to make out, i think you are stating something about how the divine has ultimate authority within the chantry which is indeed the truth but that doesn't really effect much once you leave it no?

And to your final point?

She goaded the bull and got gored, its her own stupidity.

[SgtSteel91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

My idea favors making the mages unable to resist with an overly vigilant, militant circle.

But that is a short term solution, eventually compromise will need to be made, but first you need to do a stop gate solution to make sure the war doesn't just instantly resume.

But how many compromises will be made before the Mages start demanding the same things that started the war in the first place?

[MisterJB]

There is truth in saying that if mages are pushed too far, they'll become exactly what Thedas fears. But the opposite is also true; if restrictions are not placed upon mages, they'll abuse their magic.
A middle-ground is needed but Evangeline is not providing that middle-ground; she just jumped headfirst into one of the extrems and decided, by herself, that mages require no restrictions whatsoever.

[ChaosMorning]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

My idea favors making the mages unable to resist with an overly vigilant, militant circle.

But that is a short term solution, eventually compromise will need to be made, but first you need to do a stop gate solution to make sure the war doesn't just instantly resume.

But how many compromises will be made before the Mages start demanding the same things that started the war in the first place?

Or until the Templar's provoke a revolt?

Modifié par ChaosMorning, 18 décembre 2013 - 02:04 .

[Master Warder Z_]

ChaosMorning wrote...

Subjugating the mages with overly vigilant, militant Circles hasn't really worked that well before... it actually might just make the war instantly resume.

Maybe we should look back into that whole 'cheese for everyone' plan those rats had. Who know's what kind of merits it provides.

It was how the circle was initally constructed under the seekers at the formation of the circle of magi.

Taking it back to its roots after this conflict, even during the interim of the conflict makes sense to me, you need to root out blood mages, demon conversers and Apostates. You need to ensure that the war will not be resumed, because after all when the mage army is routed and broken you will have scores that will escape of that i have no doubt.

Then it is time for compromise, when you have a secure and safe circle and the mages back in their guilded cages then it is time for compromise, I would state one of the first concessions the Templars need dole out is the reinstatement of the college of cumberland.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

There is truth in saying that if mages are pushed too far, they'll become exactly what Thedas fears. But the opposite is also true; if restrictions are not placed upon mages, they'll abuse their magic.
A middle-ground is needed but Evangeline is not providing that middle-ground; she just jumped headfirst into one of the extrems and decided, by herself, that mages require no restrictions whatsoever.

So who in the world do you find as a "middle ground" then?