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[Sentinel358]

Nefla wrote...

The Arishok was an incompetent leader, contradictory, lazy, unjust, etc...I don't see why so many people like him other than "he's big and looks cool!"

Pleae explain

[naddaya]

His attack on Kirkwall didn't strike me as a planned, but as an action out of exasperation.

Chantry extremists kept on murdering his people for years while the Qunari (expect for the Tal-Vashoth) were doing absolutely nothing to them. The Chantry was afraid of the conversions to the Qun, yet its own institution and the state of the city were the ones who caused it.

The Arishock was right, the city was in chaos. The Viscount was unable to use his own power, the Chantry and the Templars were the only true authority, and they were far from competent. Neither them nor the city guard were able to grant justice to people, but the Qun seemed to.
That's why Saemus, the elves and so many other people turned to them.

Modifié par m_k, 14 février 2014 - 06:08 .

[Sentinel358]

m_k wrote...

His attack on Kirkwall didn't strike me as a planned, but as an action out of exasperation.

Chantry extremists kept on murdering his people for years while the Qunari (expect for the Tal-Vashoth) were doing absolutely nothing to them. The Chantry was afraid of the conversions to the Qun, yet its own institution and the state of the city were the ones who caused it.

The Arishock was right, the city was in chaos. The Viscount was unable to use his own power, the Chantry and the Templars were the only true authority, and they were far from competent. Neither them nor the city guard were able to grant justice to people, but the Qun seemed to.
That's why Saemus, the elves and so many other people turned to them.

Thank you

[Gervaise]

As the above poster says, the Arishok had spent the last 3 years observing the chaos of Kirkwall. One thing that would appear to be clear is that the law is rarely upheld in a consistent manner. His response to the theft of the lethal formula was to give Hawke the heads up, clearly believing Hawke was probably the only person who would do anything about it. His response to the kidnap and slaying of his envoys was remarkably restrained and he allowed Hawke and the Vicount to deal with it. He might have thought that the Vicount would want to get justice for his son but he clearly realised that if Petrice was tried, even if convicted, popular sentiment against the Qun would work in her favour. He would definitely know that despite having the largest Templar presence in the whole of Thedas, mages are leaking out of the Gallows through the mage underground and seem to operate outside with impunity. The elves admit to their crime but state that the guard raped their sister and the authorities did nothing about it. Averline even admits that she had "heard rumours" but apparently didn't think it important enough to pursue. So why would the Arishok believe that Isabella is any more likely to receive justice?

It does seem odd that he can't just let the matter go once he has the tome but if Isabella had surrendered the book before the confrontation over the elves, he would have just left and the elf problem would have gone away with him. So from his point of view she is not just a thief but responsible for all the bloodshed that has just occurred, with no justification apart from self interest. If you hand her over, surprisingly enough he does just leave. Not that I ever have. Strangely enough Averline doesn't follow through on her threats so it would seem the Arishok had assessed the situation correctly. So perhaps it is Averline that should be accused of hypocrisy or at the very least, corruption and incompetence.

[dewayne31]

I think the Elves in Dragon Age are mostly wrong. They demand justice and fairness. Yes they have been wronged by far. But in the case of the elves they mudered a guard and promptly converted to the Qun. Cause they know the Arishok wouldnt turn them over.instead pestering the guard or templars. they chose to answer crime with crime. Arishok was blind to this.

 

As for Isabela and the book. I think booth sides are at fault. One the Arishok never told the Vizcount bout the book. Isabela for running off with it instead returning it. But in the end the Arishok is responsible for all the destruction and death not Isabela. His lying to Vizcoount caused everything that followed involving them. 

[SerCambria358]

I think the Elves in Dragon Age are mostly wrong. They demand justice and fairness. Yes they have been wronged by far. But in the case of the elves they mudered a guard and promptly converted to the Qun. Cause they know the Arishok wouldnt turn them over.instead pestering the guard or templars. they chose to answer crime with crime. Arishok was blind to this.

 

As for Isabela and the book. I think booth sides are at fault. One the Arishok never told the Vizcount bout the book. Isabela for running off with it instead returning it. But in the end the Arishok is responsible for all the destruction and death not Isabela. His lying to Vizcoount caused everything that followed involving them. 

 

There was no reason for the Arishok to tell the Viscount about the book, they wouldnt have done a single thing about it, let alone find it. The Arishok was not responsible for anything, when he was the one who was attacked first, on more than one occasion. You can call it self defense after year upon year of being attacked. Ultimately the Qunari honored the treaty and in return, are framed for the murder of the Viscounts son. As for Isabella, she took the Tome for no other reason but greed. Her greed is responsible for them being there in the first place, her greed is responsible for keeping them there unnecessarily, if she had not stolen it, all the events from ACT 1-2 wouldve been avoided completely, but because the Arishok decided enough was enough he took the initiative when the city guard threatened to take the elves by force, which is self defense in my books, considering the elves didnt commit a crime, they only carried out justice on their own, the only thing that separates them from the guards is the title of being a guard, besides that, they know right from wrong just like anyone else, so why punish them for carrying out justice? The elves told the guards several times and received zero help. What else can someone do? 

[Corker]

Isabela stole a sacred book that rightfully belongs to the Qunari, for almost no reason besides being greedy 

 

If by "greedy," you mean "to protect her own life."  Remember that bit about "I freed some slaves and Castillon's going to kill me if I don't give him this book"?  She gets no money for it.

 

I've never quite understood why all the blame for the Qunari attack gets put on Isabela instead of on Castillon (or on the Qunari).  The horrible terrible thing she did was take a shady cargo.  When she found out what it was (slaves), she put them ashore.  Everything else is her selfish, but hardly unreasonable, attempt to save her own life.  Castillon's the one who insisted that she steal the Tome.

[Jaison1986]

If by "greedy," you mean "to protect her own life."  Remember that bit about "I freed some slaves and Castillon's going to kill me if I don't give him this book"?  She gets no money for it.

 

I've never quite understood why all the blame for the Qunari attack gets put on Isabela instead of on Castillon (or on the Qunari).  The horrible terrible thing she did was take a shady cargo.  When she found out what it was (slaves), she put them ashore.  Everything else is her selfish, but hardly unreasonable, attempt to save her own life.  Castillon's the one who insisted that she steal the Tome.

 

But it would have still been better if she just died or kept on the run. The life of an single pirate compared to the life of dozens, if not hundreds of civilians seems like an pretty obvious choice. It would have been much smarter for Isabela to ask Hawke to help her track Castillon down and kill him in order to free herself from the debt, but then again, plot didn't allow this much easier choice.

[Lazy Jer]

^{The laws of humans are prone to corruption and applying human morality to a born qunari is in itself, arrogant.}
 

 

Any laws are prone to corruption.  The Qun included.  Laws may be written in black and white, but there will always be people around to twist those laws to meet their own agendas.  As far as applying human morality to a born Qunari, I don't think it's arrogant, I think it's a natural.  After all the Arishok applies Qunari morality to humans or he wouldn't have expected us to honor Qunari law as it applied to Isabella and the elves. 

[Sifr]

His attack on Kirkwall didn't strike me as a planned, but as an action out of exasperation.

Chantry extremists kept on murdering his people for years while the Qunari (expect for the Tal-Vashoth) were doing absolutely nothing to them. The Chantry was afraid of the conversions to the Qun, yet its own institution and the state of the city were the ones who caused it.

The Arishock was right, the city was in chaos. The Viscount was unable to use his own power, the Chantry and the Templars were the only true authority, and they were far from competent. Neither them nor the city guard were able to grant justice to people, but the Qun seemed to.
That's why Saemus, the elves and so many other people turned to them.

 

Precisely. The Tome slipping through his fingers yet again and once again thwarting him from completing his demand of the Qun caused him to snap. HIs attack on Kirkwall as trying to impose order on Kirkwall, when the order already present (which was chaos in his view) had utterly broken down.

 

Alternatively, the above was simply his "official" excuse for his actions. I personally believe that he never believed that the Qunari could hold Kirkwall at all and it was simply trying to commit suicide-by-cop at Hawke's hands, since Hawke was the only one worthy to bring him down and death was the only escape from his own principles.

[Lazy Jer]

But it would have still been better if she just died or kept on the run. The life of an single pirate compared to the life of dozens, if not hundreds of civilians seems like an pretty obvious choice. It would have been much smarter for Isabela to ask Hawke to help her track Castillon down and kill him in order to free herself from the debt, but then again, plot didn't allow this much easier choice.

 

That's assuming that Isabella could have predicted that by not having the Tome would cause the Arishok to sack Kirkwall.  It's a lot more logical to assume that if the Arishok learns the Tome has left Kirkwall that they'd follow the thief and leave Kirkwall alone.  Truth be told, though, the Arishok didn't even really invade Kirkwall for the book, he invaded it because he was frustrated with the crap that Patrice was constantly trying to pull.

[Cobra's_back]

While I defended Isabela, the Arishok really does have the moral high ground here.

The Elves committed a crime, seeking revenge against a rapist who had violated their sister, when the authorities in Kirkwall refused to act. They are now members of the Qunari and will be punished (or not punished), according to the Qun.

Keep in mind, should they try to leave the Qun afterwards, they will be slain on sight as Tal-Vashoth, so it's not like they're getting off scott free here. The Arishok expects them to live by the Qun or die by it.

Isabela has likewise committed a crime, having stolen the Tome of Koslun and is therefore responsible for every single death, be it human or Qunari in the years since. As a pirate, criminal and presumably not a full citizen of Kirkwall, she has absolutely no protection under the law of the land, so the Arishok is within his rights to ask for extradition into his custody.

If the Viscount had been asked to grant extradition and wasn't in the middle of his breakdown, he'd have likely handed her over in a second to appease the Arishok. The only person really getting angry over the Elf situation seems to be Aveline.

 

 

I totally agree. I don't care for Isabela. At this point I have earned Arishok respect but i don't turn over Isabela. i do this to force the fight because the Arishok killed the Viscount. There was no way for me to keep the Viscount from getting killed and that is why the Arishok has to pay.

[Cobra's_back]

That's assuming that Isabella could have predicted that by not having the Tome would cause the Arishok to sack Kirkwall.  It's a lot more logical to assume that if the Arishok learns the Tome has left Kirkwall that they'd follow the thief and leave Kirkwall alone.  Truth be told, though, the Arishok didn't even really invade Kirkwall for the book, he invaded it because he was frustrated with the crap that Patrice was constantly trying to pull.

 

But we killed Patrice and he knows it. The Viscount didn't order it.

[Cobra's_back]

If by "greedy," you mean "to protect her own life."  Remember that bit about "I freed some slaves and Castillon's going to kill me if I don't give him this book"?  She gets no money for it.

 

I've never quite understood why all the blame for the Qunari attack gets put on Isabela instead of on Castillon (or on the Qunari).  The horrible terrible thing she did was take a shady cargo.  When she found out what it was (slaves), she put them ashore.  Everything else is her selfish, but hardly unreasonable, attempt to save her own life.  Castillon's the one who insisted that she steal the Tome.

 

 

This part confuses me because in the comic she drowns a ship load of slaves and feels guilty in "Those who Speak". 

[Br3admax]

lolMorals. You'll go farther without some of them, son. 

[Sifr]

But we killed Patrice and he knows it. The Viscount didn't order it.

 

Or the Arishok's forces killed Petrice.

 

And even if the Viscount didn't order it, the Viscount didn't stop people like her stirring up trouble either. He has no respect for the Viscount because he's got absolutely no backbone, as shown by his plan to cover up the death of the Qunari at the hands of the fanatical mob. It's Hawke that can convince him not to do by pointing out that the Arishok would immediately see through it and lying to him would only serve to further disrespect him. Hawke was the only person in Kirkwall willing to be on the level with him and stand up to him, while everyone else is trying to appease him as best they could, even Aveline.

 

Hawke doesn't particular care about the Elves who sought protection under the Qun, as far as s/he is concerned that means the situation is out of their hands and only Aveline is pushing to get them back. Hawke only objects when he demands Isabella, since the Arishok's stated demand of the Qun was for the Tome, not the thief responsible, especially if she had returned it.

 

As the Arishok and several other Qunari note, Hawke's ability to understand and abide by his/her own set of boundaries and know how best to operate within them make him/her very similar to a Qunari in that respect. By demanding Isabella in addition to the Tome, the Arishok is technically breaking his own rules and Hawke rightfully calls him out on it.

[Lazy Jer]

This part confuses me because in the comic she drowns a ship load of slaves and feels guilty in "Those who Speak". 

 

You do have to be careful when it comes to comics vs. the games vs. the books, etc.  Often times they have different authors who have different ideas about what the character does/does not believe and the continuity involved with the characters.

[Cobra's_back]

Or the Arishok's forces killed Petrice.

 

And even if the Viscount didn't order it, the Viscount didn't stop people like her stirring up trouble either. He has no respect for the Viscount because he's got absolutely no backbone, as shown by his plan to cover up the death of the Qunari at the hands of the fanatical mob. It's Hawke that can convince him not to do by pointing out that the Arishok would immediately see through it and lying to him would only serve to further disrespect him. Hawke was the only person in Kirkwall willing to be on the level with him and stand up to him, while everyone else is trying to appease him as best they could, even Aveline.

 

Hawke doesn't particular care about the Elves who sought protection under the Qun, as far as s/he is concerned that means the situation is out of their hands and only Aveline is pushing to get them back. Hawke only objects when he demands Isabella, since the Arishok's stated demand of the Qun was for the Tome, not the thief responsible, especially if she had returned it.

 

As the Arishok and several other Qunari note, Hawke's ability to understand and abide by his/her own set of boundaries and know how best to operate within them make him/her very similar to a Qunari in that respect. By demanding Isabella in addition to the Tome, the Arishok is technically breaking his own rules and Hawke rightfully calls him out on it.

 

I agree with what you are saying. I always earn his respect but I don't give him a pass for murder. The Viscount is weak but that should not translate to death. Respect is a two way street. Hawk can respect him but have a limit. The elves were correct in what they did. If my Hawk would have caught the guy he would have been dead for the rape as well. I always give Aveline hell for this and support the Arishok.

[Cobra's_back]

You do have to be careful when it comes to comics vs. the games vs. the books, etc.  Often times they have different authors who have different ideas about what the character does/does not believe and the continuity involved with the characters.

 

The comic is "Those We Speak" written by David Gaider published by Dark Horse.

[Sifr]

I agree with what you are saying. I always earn his respect but I don't give him a pass for murder. The Viscount is weak but that should not translate to death. Respect is a two way street. Hawk can respect him but have a limit. The elves were correct in what they did. If my Hawk would have caught the guy he would have been dead for the rape as well. I always give Aveline hell for this and support the Arishok.

 

I agree, the Arishok crossed the line by killing the Viscount, what possible purpose did his death serve aside from shocking some nobles?

 

And Hawke would definitely have murdered the guard as well. Really, it's a tad hypocritical from Aveline since in Act 1, she fully supported Hawke's decision to defy the magistrate's orders and execute his son for kidnapping and murdering countless elven children. How is this any different? Except that in the elves case, they didn't have the Captain of the Guard as a friend?

[Lazy Jer]

I agree, the Arishok crossed the line by killing the Viscount, what possible purpose did his death serve aside from shocking some nobles?

 

And Hawke would definitely have murdered the guard as well. Really, it's a tad hypocritical from Aveline since in Act 1, she fully supported Hawke's decision to defy the magistrate's orders and execute his son for kidnapping and murdering countless elven children. How is this any different? Except that in the elves case, they didn't have the Captain of the Guard as a friend?

 

Well the difference is that most likely this was the first time Aveline was hearing about this.  After all the guards that were suppressing the elves complaints to protect their friends would, naturally, not have let Aveline know about those complaints.  The whole object of not reporting was to cover up.  Aveline says in the seen that there have been rumors and that she will investigate.

 

In the magistrate situation, serial murderer in question had a magistrate as a father.  Thus, even though she may have been the captain of the guard, arresting him and bringing him in would just lead to more cover-ups since Aveline presumably is only in charge of arresting law-breakers, not judging them.  She already knows that this kid was given more leniency then he should have been given because of his father's position and he still managed to put other people's lives at risk. 

 

Basically the magistrate situation the injustice fell out of her ability to control.  But the complaints against the guards was very much in her jurisdiction.

[Xilizhra]

While I defended Isabela, the Arishok really does have the moral high ground here.

The Elves committed a crime, seeking revenge against a rapist who had violated their sister, when the authorities in Kirkwall refused to act. They are now members of the Qunari and will be punished (or not punished), according to the Qun.

Keep in mind, should they try to leave the Qun afterwards, they will be slain on sight as Tal-Vashoth, so it's not like they're getting off scott free here. The Arishok expects them to live by the Qun or die by it.

Isabela has likewise committed a crime, having stolen the Tome of Koslun and is therefore responsible for every single death, be it human or Qunari in the years since. As a pirate, criminal and presumably not a full citizen of Kirkwall, she has absolutely no protection under the law of the land, so the Arishok is within his rights to ask for extradition into his custody.

If the Viscount had been asked to grant extradition and wasn't in the middle of his breakdown, he'd have likely handed her over in a second to appease the Arishok. The only person really getting angry over the Elf situation seems to be Aveline.

Er... no, Isabela is not? The qunari are, full stop. Much as they may like to pretend otherwise, they're not machines.

 

I also would say that the Arishok's extradition rights stopped the instant he launched an act of war against Kirkwall. And as Isabela is one of Hawke's subordinates, Hawke has no obligation whatsoever to give her as appeasement to an enemy combatant.

[Sifr]

Er... no, Isabela is not? The qunari are, full stop. Much as they may like to pretend otherwise, they're not machines.

 

I also would say that the Arishok's extradition rights stopped the instant he launched an act of war against Kirkwall. And as Isabela is one of Hawke's subordinates, Hawke has no obligation whatsoever to give her as appeasement to an enemy combatant.

 

Isabela is not what? And qunari are what? I'm confused what you're disagree or agreeing with?

 

If you mean responsible for all the deaths, I should have clarified that she's (indirectly) responsible by stealing the Tome of Koslun, much like Varric and Hawke are indirectly responsible for the Mage Templar War by being the one who recruited Hawke on the Deep Roads Expedition and the one who intervened at the Gallows respectively. Not the direct cause of the later mayhem, but accidentally got the ball rolling.

 

I agree that the Qunari are guilty of murder and launching an unprovoked invasion, but from their viewpoint, they were justified from having legitimate grievances and suffered continuous provocations from enemy belligerents, such as Petrice and her fantatics.

 

As for your latter point, Hawke has no position of authority to impose any kinds of rules on Isabela, let alone make her a subordinate. As Aveline mentions near the start of Act 2, Hawke has continually refused to get involved with any kind of job or position in Kirkwall, aside from being a free agent with fellow likeminded individuals. Hawke might be the leader of the group, but s/he's not Commander Shepard who can give orders to underlings.

 

Hawke likely wouldn't have given her over as appeasement anyway (unless you as the player are being cruel), but at this point in the story, Hawke's simply acting on their own rather than representing Kirkwall. The only "official" voice present would have been Aveline, who refused to let them take Isabela.

[Cobra's_back]

I agree, the Arishok crossed the line by killing the Viscount, what possible purpose did his death serve aside from shocking some nobles?

 

And Hawke would definitely have murdered the guard as well. Really, it's a tad hypocritical from Aveline since in Act 1, she fully supported Hawke's decision to defy the magistrate's orders and execute his son for kidnapping and murdering countless elven children. How is this any different? Except that in the elves case, they didn't have the Captain of the Guard as a friend?

 

So true. I really had issues with her attitude. 

[CronoDragoon]

There was no reason for the Arishok to tell the Viscount about the book, they wouldnt have done a single thing about it, let alone find it.

 

Erm, I'm pretty sure getting the Qunari out of Kirkwall was priority #1 for all non-Qunari in Kirkwall, and certainly for the Viscount considering the influence the Qun was having on his son. At the very least Hawke would have been assigned to look for the book.