69 réponses à ce sujet

[MagicalMaster]

So, I rescued Anora, revealed her to Cauthrien (I can't find any way through any of the other options to talk her down) since I didn't have a better option (I mean, given that Loghain authorized poisoning an arl and has declared the Grey Wardens to be traitors, willingly going to a prison of his is a suicide wish.  Makes no sense based on those implications alone, even disregarding many of the other problems with that idea).

Which meant I had to kill Cauthrien (playing on Nightmare).  Wish I could have kept her alive and brought her to Eamon, but game doesn't let me.

Except when I arrived at Eamon's estate, Anora started talking about my lack of subtletly and how she barely managed to escape "her" at the palace.  Who the heck is "her?"  Cauthrien was dead.  Anora was free to go directly to Eamon's estate with us, so what's this nonsense about having to slip away from the palace?

Oh well.  Two reasons to hate Anora (betrayal and lying/delerium) so I get to see if I can make Alistair king and kill her.  I wanted an option to punch her (or hurl her into a wall or slam my staff into her or hit her with a fireball) upon returning to Eamon's but sadly there did not seem to be such an option.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Face of Evil]

You probably hit a bug. I think there's supposed to be dialogue relating to Cauthrien's death.

[MagicalMaster]

She gives the line about Cauthrien's death if you DON'T "reveal" Anora but fight anyway.

-----------------------------------

Am I missing something here?

I told Anora to shove off, won the Landsmeet without her support, accepted the offer to induct Loghain into the Grey Wardens (Loghain gets to live the rest of his life in effectively a suicide mission and I trust Riordan wouldn't have suggested getting more Grey Wardens without good reason), and then support Alistair for the king.

Based on the dialogue, this should mean that Loghain joins my party (assuming he survives, which I'm guessing he will), Alistair leaves (I won't stand beside him!) to rule as king, and Anora is hopefully executed/exiled/thrown in prison...but instead the game immediately jumps to me about to execute Loghain?

WHAT?

Where did that come from? I specifically AVOIDED executing Loghain and said we'd induct him. Why am I suddenly about to execute him?

[theskymoves]

If you want to both recruit Loghain and make Alistair king, you also need to arrange for Alistair to marry Anora, before the Landsmeet.

[MagicalMaster]

Er...why?

What is not plausible about Alistair worrying about being King, Loghain fights the Blight directly (basically they switch positions if he survives), and Anora gets what she deserves (exile/death/imprisonment/whatever)?

Why in the world would Alistair have to marry Anora?

[theskymoves]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Er...why?

What is not plausible about Alistair worrying about being King, Loghain fights the Blight directly (basically they switch positions if he survives), and Anora gets what she deserves (exile/death/imprisonment/whatever)?

Why in the world would Alistair have to marry Anora?

That's a question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to. 

Nevertheless, the game requires the marriage as a condition for both recruiting Loghain and making Alistair king. (And I suspect that the reason that condition was set has to do with Alistair having absolutely no reason to want Loghain to walk out of the Landsmeet alive.)

Modifié par theskymoves, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[Angrywolves]

I don't think Anora deserves death,imprisonment or exile any more than Allistair does.
Why would he marry Anora.
Why not ?
The people love and respect Anora, she beautiful and to minimize rancor and potential revolution against rule post blight marrying her makes alot of sense imo.

[dainbramage]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Er...why?

What is not
plausible about Alistair worrying about being King, Loghain fights the Blight directly (basically they switch positions if he survives), and Anora gets what she deserves (exile/death/imprisonment/whatever)?

Why in the world would Alistair have to marry Anora?

Alistair hates Loghain. Give Alistair the power (i.e. make him king) and he will order Loghain's execution. OTOH if he marries Anora, she has equal power and doesn't want her dad dead, and ordering your father in law's exeuction probably isn't the best start to a marriage (and Anora will never marry her father's killer), so he can survive to become a grey warden.

Modifié par dainbramage, 18 décembre 2013 - 11:50 .

[MagicalMaster]

Angrywolves wrote...

I don't think Anora deserves death,imprisonment or exile any more than Allistair does.

Well, she betrayed me at Howe's estate and betrayed/lied to me by saying she would be willing to let Alistair take the crown as long as Loghain is stopped.  Plus she acted like a complete idiot after I killed Ser Cauthrien (which apparently may be a bug).

Alistair was also in the party for the former so that's twice now that she's betrayed the new king -- and she then refuses to renounce her claim to the throne and swear fealty.

What exactly does it take for you to consider someone to be deserving of death/imprisonment/exile if none of those count?

-----------------

In regards to the other comments -- how about MY opinion?  Alistair might want Loghain dead but...

1, I don't, I'm at 100% approval, and I just put him on the throne.  One would hope he'd be willing to do a favor at the minimum given the circumstances

2, Riordan doesn't want him dead either -- and he's much more experienced as a Grey Warden.  Riordan also seems to have a good reason for wanting Loghain as a Grey Warden so, I don't know, we could lock Loghain up and then Alistair and I chat with Riordan to find out why?  We can always kill Loghain later and it's clear the Wardens have a lot of secrets (like the Joining, dreams, and committing suicide by darkspawn in the Deep Roads).

3, even if Loghain becomes a Grey Warden, we could still always kill him later if he decides he's not worth the trouble/hassle/whatever

4, we can always just execute Loghain after the Blight ends regardless of any other reason

5, just as Alistair tried to pull a "Him or me" speech (which I was fine with, let Alistair focus on ruling if Loghain survives), I could do a similar thing -- let Loghain live...for the moment...or I just leave for another country (or Alistair can try throwing me in prison) and Fereldan is basically screwed.

I mean, I personally think ANY of those is a decent reason to let Loghain try the Joining (since even the weakest argument boils down to "We can just kill him later anyway") and some of those are very compelling in my opinion.

So...yeah.  This is stupid.  I don't want Alistair to rule with Anora (for reasons mentioned above and because I'm worried about her influence in general) and I want to try to have Alistair focused on ruling with Loghain fighting the darkspawn.  But apparently this is impossible?

[Angrywolves]

well the proof will be what has happened in Ferelden if your decisions are implimented verses what the results are if mine are implimented. How are things in Ferelden when DAI begins.
If Anora is Queen and has done a good job then my version is vindicated.
As we know Allistair disappears at some point and we don't know who is ruling Ferelden if there is no Anora there.
I wonder how Gaider and his team decided the situation would look like with no Alistair and no Anora.
So we'll see.
I wondered too about the Ser Cauthrien stuff and wondered if Anora might be bisexual. A little dalliance wouldn't be unexpected if you know your husband the king is cheating as well.<_<

Modifié par Angrywolves, 19 décembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[MagicalMaster]

Angrywolves wrote...

As we know Allistair disappears at some point and we don't know who is ruling Ferelden if there is no Anora there.

No, I don't know that as I haven't finished the game.  But according to what I've seen, Anora can't even bear a child anyway so Alistair should marry someone else and have an heir with her -- and if Alistair apparently does disappear (which I doubt he would unless he's going to commit suicide by Darkspawn in like 30 years) then Arl Eamon could rule temporarily until the child is old enough or something.

Also, my question about exactly what it takes for someone to be worthy of imprisonment/exile/death still stands, no?  You didn't answer that.

[Mike3207]

I think Gaider decided some time ago Ferelden would be headed for civil war-that's why there will be no royal children.

Alistair hasn't disappeared in either of the first 2 games. He might in DAI, but that's a decision that has yet to be made.

[dainbramage]

MagicalMaster wrote...


In regards to the other comments -- how about MY opinion?  Alistair might want Loghain dead but...

1, I don't, I'm at 100% approval, and I just put him on the throne.  One would hope he'd be willing to do a favor at the minimum given the circumstances

2, Riordan doesn't want him dead either -- and he's much more experienced as a Grey Warden.  Riordan also seems to have a good reason for wanting Loghain as a Grey Warden so, I don't know, we could lock Loghain up and then Alistair and I chat with Riordan to find out why?  We can always kill Loghain later and it's clear the Wardens have a lot of secrets (like the Joining, dreams, and committing suicide by darkspawn in the Deep Roads).

3, even if Loghain becomes a Grey Warden, we could still always kill him later if he decides he's not worth the trouble/hassle/whatever

4, we can always just execute Loghain after the Blight ends regardless of any other reason

5, just as Alistair tried to pull a "Him or me" speech (which I was fine with, let Alistair focus on ruling if Loghain survives), I could do a similar thing -- let Loghain live...for the moment...or I just leave for another country (or Alistair can try throwing me in prison) and Fereldan is basically screwed.

I mean, I personally think ANY of those is a decent reason to let Loghain try the Joining (since even the weakest argument boils down to "We can just kill him later anyway") and some of those are very compelling in my opinion.

So...yeah.  This is stupid.  I don't want Alistair to rule with Anora (for reasons mentioned above and because I'm worried about her influence in general) and I want to try to have Alistair focused on ruling with Loghain fighting the darkspawn.  But apparently this is impossible?

1. Clearly he's not
2. Riordan isn't the king. The guy who wants him dead is the king. Again, all opinions other than alistair's are moot.
3. and 4. Now he's a hero who helped save ferelden from the blight, and you're executing him. mkay.
5. So you do that and what... nonstandard game over? Go straight to the epilogue slides "the pariah of ferelden decided to bugger off to Orlais. Ferelden fell in the blight, which was eventually ended 3 years later with the allied forces of Thedas and the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives. Since you abandoned your grey warden-ness you never went on your calling and slaughtered dozens of civilians when you became a ghoul. You. Bloody. ****"

You gave someone executive power and were surprised when they used it. A problem with videogame logic is that the PC is way too influential. Good on bioware for going against that (in an incredibly tiny amount... why are you choosing the ruler anyway) for once.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

As we know Allistair disappears at some point and we don't know who is ruling Ferelden if there is no Anora there.

No, I don't know that as I haven't finished the game.  But according to what I've seen, Anora can't even bear a child anyway so Alistair should marry someone else and have an heir with her -- and if Alistair apparently does disappear (which I doubt he would unless he's going to commit suicide by Darkspawn in like 30 years) then Arl Eamon could rule temporarily until the child is old enough or something.

There isn't sufficient evidence to declare Anora infertile. There's other explanations for there not being an heir: Cailan could have been sterile, or they could have been unlucky. Now I'll note that Anora being infertile answers the issue as well as those answers, but we can't just assume Anora infertile just off the evidence given.

Also, my question about exactly what it takes for someone to be worthy of imprisonment/exile/death still stands, no?  You didn't answer that.

You can argue for executing Anora based on that, I'll note though the strongest bit is that she refuses to bend the knee after she's already lost. The rest of it wasn't treason at the time, though it does justify the people who actually won being wary of her. Refusing to concede when the rival is king, though? Barring a very good justification, that's treason.

[Angrywolves]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

As we know Allistair disappears at some point and we don't know who is ruling Ferelden if there is no Anora there.

No, I don't know that as I haven't finished the game.  But according to what I've seen, Anora can't even bear a child anyway so Alistair should marry someone else and have an heir with her -- and if Alistair apparently does disappear (which I doubt he would unless he's going to commit suicide by Darkspawn in like 30 years) then Arl Eamon could rule temporarily until the child is old enough or something.

Also, my question about exactly what it takes for someone to be worthy of imprisonment/exile/death still stands, no?  You didn't answer that.

Allistair doesn't disappear in the game but in the years after DA2 but before DAI starts.

The can't bear a child may not be Anora's fault.Cailen could have been sterile.

Whether you doubt Allistair disappears  or not is inconsequential. It happens.Shrugs.

I don't have to answer your question. Look at our world history.If you killed every monarch who had lied or betrayed someone our world history would look a lot different.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Except when I arrived at Eamon's estate, Anora started talking about my lack of subtletly and how she barely managed to escape "her" at the palace.  Who the heck is "her?"  Cauthrien was dead.  Anora was free to go directly to Eamon's estate with us, so what's this nonsense about having to slip away from the palace?

Anora had to get around Cauthrien to escape the palace (first) then get to Denerim Estate, where she set up her 'capture' for you to rescue her from. The last thing she wanted was for Cauthrien to escort her back to the palace when she could try to get her kingdom back with, hopefully, your direct help.

She even tells you that as soon as you rescue her. She explicitly says she must avoid being recognised by both Howe's people and the palace people.

Oh well.  Two reasons to hate Anora (betrayal and lying/delerium) so I get to see if I can make Alistair king and kill her.  I wanted an option to punch her (or hurl her into a wall or slam my staff into her or hit her with a fireball) upon returning to Eamon's but sadly there did not seem to be such an option.

Yeah, she tells you not to rat her out to anyone and you do exactly that.

How dare she get upset.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 19 décembre 2013 - 02:37 .

[MagicalMaster]

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

1. Clearly he's not[/quote]

You're simply factually incorrect on this.  For the simple reason that I never had the chance to say this.  We went from "I won't stand beside him as a brother!" to "That's fine, be king" to having my character immediately going into execution mode.  Not only did I not have a chance to (successfully or unsuccessfully) talk Alistair out of killing Loghain, Alistair never even said "I demand Loghain executed since I'm king."

He said NOTHING about Loghain after I declared him king.  Not a peep.  But my PC apparently decided to execute Loghain.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

2. Riordan isn't the king. The guy who wants him dead is the king. Again, all opinions other than alistair's are moot.[/quote]

Except Alistair never gave his opinion as king like I pointed out above.  On top of that, I'm not saying Riordan's opinion overrules the king, I'm saying I wanted a chance to VOICE Riordan's opinion and reasoning.  Even if Alistair then said "Nope, I still want Loghain dead."  Especially it sounds like a Grey Warden needs to die to kill an archdemon, which sounds like a fitting fate for Loghain.  "Alistair, good news!  We can kill Loghain by destroying his soul and ending the Blight so neither of us needs to die."

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

3. and 4. Now he's a hero who helped save ferelden from the blight, and you're executing him. mkay.[/quote]

No, he's a criminal under suspended sentence of death who lives only as long as he proves useful.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

5. So you do that and what... nonstandard game over?[/quote]

Or...Alistair agrees to let Loghain live for the moment?  I'd bet Fereldan that he's too noble and good-hearted to "force" me to walk away like that.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

You gave someone executive power and were surprised when they used it. A problem with videogame logic is that the PC is way too influential.[/quote]

Except, again, Alistair never said "Now that I'm king, execute Loghain."  Not once.  It was apparently assumed that because I supported Alistair (AFTER wanting to induct Loghain) that I pulled a 180 and wanted Loghain dead with NO discussion or proclamation.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

Good on bioware for going against that (in an incredibly tiny amount... why are you choosing the ruler anyway) for once.[/quote]

Because as someone who is the current leader of the Grey Wardens in the area, ended the curse of the werewolves, survived the Deep Roads and confronted two Dwarf Paragons, cleansed the Circle of a demonic infestation, saved Redcliffe, found the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and much much more...that I might have a good perspective on who might make a good ruler?

Especially as the whole noble vote was "I stand with the Grey Wardens!"

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

There isn't sufficient evidence to declare Anora infertile. There's other explanations for there not being an heir: Cailan could have been sterile, or they could have been unlucky. Now I'll note that Anora being infertile answers the issue as well as those answers, but we can't just assume Anora infertile just off the evidence given.[/quote]

Except, as I pointed out, that's only one possible issue top of a bunch of other problems.  It's not the only thing, not even close to it.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You can argue for executing Anora based on that, I'll note though the strongest bit is that she refuses to bend the knee after she's already lost. The rest of it wasn't treason at the time, though it does justify the people who actually won being wary of her. Refusing to concede when the rival is king, though? Barring a very good justification, that's treason.[/quote]

I didn't say it was treason (never said that word), I said she betrayed Alistair.  In at least two ways.

[quote]Angrywolves wrote...

I don't have to answer your question. Look at our world history.If you killed every monarch who had lied or betrayed someone our world history would look a lot different.[/quote]

No, it wouldn't -- oddly enough, if a monarch was desposed and the old monarch had betrayed the new monarch...something bad happened to the old monarch, be it imprisonment/exile/death.

We're not talking about the King of France lying to the King of England.  We're talking about a King of France who had betrayed a person and that person became the new King of France.  That new person would do something to the old King of France -- usually death.

So I certainly would appreciate you answering my question, which was simple enough.


[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

She even tells you that as soon as you rescue her. She explicitly says she must avoid being recognised by both Howe's people and the palace people.[/quote]

What does this have to do with what I said?

She didn't say "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien before killing her, I asked you not to do that!"

She basically says "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien, I barely managed to escape Cauthrien and the palace after that!"

Which makes ZERO sense because Cauthrien was dead.  She didn't have to escape from ANYONE to get to Eamon's estate after that fight.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yeah, she tells you not to rat her out to anyone and you do exactly that.

How dare she get upset.[/quote]

Two points.

1, see above, she's not upset about being ratted out, she's apparently upset about having to sneak away from the palace after Cauthrien takes her back there.  Except Cauthrien was dead, so...amount of sense is registering as zero here.

2, perhaps you could enlighten me about a better option, assuming the goal is not having the PC die and avoiding slaughtering a bunch of guards?  Going willingly to a prison run by Loghain after he's already hired assassins and poisoned an arl and much more is suicidal, that makes no sense.  I'd expect my character to die because ever arriving at the cell.  Attacking at once fails the second objective.  That means my only option is to say I'm rescuing Anora.

Then I can either attack (fails second objective), taunt Cauthrien (fails second objective), or reveal Anora and try to end this peacefully somehow (which winds up failing since she backstabs me).

On top of all of this, I don't have an option to tell Anora (when she complains about my actions in a way that makes no sense anyway) that perhaps SHE could tell me a better choice (or just yell at her that I didn't have a better alternative).

How dare I be upset.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[TEWR]

MagicalMaster wrote...

So, I rescued Anora, revealed her to Cauthrien (I can't find any way through any of the other options to talk her down) since I didn't have a better option (I mean, given that Loghain authorized poisoning an arl and has declared the Grey Wardens to be traitors, willingly going to a prison of his is a suicide wish.

1) Revealing Anora to Cauthrien was a really big betrayal of the trust she placed in you (she expressly tells you to NOT do such a thing) so you kinda vindicated the accusations against you by doing so.

2) Loghain told Cauthrien to take the Wardens alive, and at this point Howe's dead so you don't have to worry about torture (as much). Howe was pretty much the one doing all the torturing.

Except when I arrived at Eamon's estate, Anora started talking about my lack of subtletly and how she barely managed to escape "her" at the palace.  Who the heck is "her?"  Cauthrien was dead.  Anora was free to go directly to Eamon's estate with us, so what's this nonsense about having to slip away from the palace?

You revealed Anora to Cauthrien when she told you to not tell her father's people of who she was for fear of what might happen. As a result, a fight broke out and Anora had to avoid all of the soldiers, lest Cauthrien capture her and take her back to her father. She evaded Cauthrien back at the palace just barely, and then you told Cauthrien at the Arl of Denerim's Estate "Hey, here's Anora!"

The thing she didn't want to happen, you basically tried to make happen. And yet you criticize her for your failings.

Oh well.  Two reasons to hate Anora (betrayal and lying/delerium)

Who betrayed who here? You betrayed her. 

so I get to see if I can make Alistair king and kill her.  I wanted an option to punch her (or hurl her into a wall or slam my staff into her or hit her with a fireball) upon returning to Eamon's but sadly there did not seem to be such an option.

Charming.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 décembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

You're simply factually incorrect on this.  For the simple reason that I never had the chance to say this.  We went from "I won't stand beside him as a brother!" to "That's fine, be king" to having my character immediately going into execution mode.  Not only did I not have a chance to (successfully or unsuccessfully) talk Alistair out of killing Loghain, Alistair never even said "I demand Loghain executed since I'm king."

He said NOTHING about Loghain after I declared him king.  Not a peep.  But my PC apparently decided to execute Loghain.[/quote]

As to why Loghain's dying, it's because you granted the power to decide this to Alistair, on account of him now technically outranking you. As to why you're killing him personally, I'm not sure. I can only assume the writers didn't want to add the next logical dialogue option.

[quote]

Except Alistair never gave his opinion as king like I pointed out above.  On top of that, I'm not saying Riordan's opinion overrules the king, I'm saying I wanted a chance to VOICE Riordan's opinion and reasoning.  Even if Alistair then said "Nope, I still want Loghain dead."  Especially it sounds like a Grey Warden needs to die to kill an archdemon, which sounds like a fitting fate for Loghain.  "Alistair, good news!  We can kill Loghain by destroying his soul and ending the Blight so neither of us needs to die."[/quote]

Riordan hints at having a reason, if I remember correctly. But there's no way he's going to voice it in front of the Landsmeet. Having some way around that would have been nice, but there's only so much you can program into a video game. If you want complete control of your character, then past a certain point I'd say you need to look into tabletop gaming. (Edit: Though even then you won't get to do everything you want. Just a fair warning.)

[quote]
No, he's a criminal under suspended sentence of death who lives only as long as he proves useful.[/quote]

And you're trusting the people as a whole to see it this way? They've been hearing nothing but bad things about you from the local media for the past year, and nothing but good about Loghain for about thirty times that long.

[quote]

Or...Alistair agrees to let Loghain live for the moment?  I'd bet Fereldan that he's too noble and good-hearted to "force" me to walk away like that.[/quote]

Don't forget that he walks if you agree to spare Loghain. Argue that it's inconsistent with most of his character if you want, but don't argue that he won't do it.

[quote]

Except, again, Alistair never said "Now that I'm king, execute Loghain."  Not once.  It was apparently assumed that because I supported Alistair (AFTER wanting to induct Loghain) that I pulled a 180 and wanted Loghain dead with NO discussion or proclamation.[/quote]

You gave the power of a crown to a man who wanted Loghain dead more than anything else including your friendship. And if I remember correctly the context makes absolutely clear that he wants Loghain dead in exchange. Stepping aside to allow this instead of kacking him yourself should have been an option, (edit: if it wasn't, which I don't really remember) but I'm pretty sure it was clear in context that Loghain surviving this wasn't.

[quote]

Because as someone who is the current leader of the Grey Wardens in the area, ended the curse of the werewolves, survived the Deep Roads and confronted two Dwarf Paragons, cleansed the Circle of a demonic infestation, saved Redcliffe, found the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and much much more...that I might have a good perspective on who might make a good ruler?

Especially as the whole noble vote was "I stand with the Grey Wardens!"[/quote]

That's more being a good killer than a good ruler. This isn't Orzammar you know.

[quote]

Except, as I pointed out, that's only one possible issue top of a bunch of other problems.  It's not the only thing, not even close to it.[/quote]

Perfectly fair. I'm just pointing out that I don't think this one thing holds water.

[quote]

I didn't say it was treason (never said that word), I said she betrayed Alistair.  In at least two ways.[/quote]

Which she had no real reason not to do yet. He's not the king until the Landsmeet is over, and is planning to get there by going over her head.

[quote]

No, it wouldn't -- oddly enough, if a monarch was desposed and the old monarch had betrayed the new monarch...something bad happened to the old monarch, be it imprisonment/exile/death.

We're not talking about the King of France lying to the King of England.  We're talking about a King of France who had betrayed a person and that person became the new King of France.  That new person would do something to the old King of France -- usually death.

So I certainly would appreciate you answering my question, which was simple enough.[/quote]

And fair, I suppose. You can justify killing Anora, I guess, if only as a threat. Though punishing it just for retribution just strikes me as a bit petty.

[quote]

What does this have to do with what I said?

She didn't say "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien before killing her, I asked you not to do that!"

She basically says "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien, I barely managed to escape Cauthrien and the palace after that!"

Which makes ZERO sense because Cauthrien was dead.  She didn't have to escape from ANYONE to get to Eamon's estate after that fight.[/quote]

I think I'm going to have to do with the "dialogue oversight" explanation. I doubt they meant Anora to be this weird, since one might assume they wanted this to be a difficult choice.

[quote]

Two points.

1, see above, she's not upset about being ratted out, she's apparently upset about having to sneak away from the palace after Cauthrien takes her back there.  Except Cauthrien was dead, so...amount of sense is registering as zero here.

2, perhaps you could enlighten me about a better option, assuming the goal is not having the PC die and avoiding slaughtering a bunch of guards?  Going willingly to a prison run by Loghain after he's already hired assassins and poisoned an arl and much more is suicidal, that makes no sense.  I'd expect my character to die because ever arriving at the cell.  Attacking at once fails the second objective.  That means my only option is to say I'm rescuing Anora.

Then I can either attack (fails second objective), taunt Cauthrien (fails second objective), or reveal Anora and try to end this peacefully somehow (which winds up failing since she backstabs me).

On top of all of this, I don't have an option to tell Anora (when she complains about my actions in a way that makes no sense anyway) that perhaps SHE could tell me a better choice (or just yell at her that I didn't have a better alternative).

How dare I be upset.
[/quote]

There's some blame to go around, really. Still, being irritated that you did the one thing you told her could get her killed, even if you didn't see any other option, is a bit understandable.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 décembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Joy Divison]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

1. Clearly he's not[/quote]

You're simply factually incorrect on this.  For the simple reason that I never had the chance to say this.  We went from "I won't stand beside him as a brother!" to "That's fine, be king" to having my character immediately going into execution mode.  Not only did I not have a chance to (successfully or unsuccessfully) talk Alistair out of killing Loghain, Alistair never even said "I demand Loghain executed since I'm king."

He said NOTHING about Loghain after I declared him king.  Not a peep.  But my PC apparently decided to execute Loghain.
[/quote]

Your character goes into "execution mode" because of the decisions you made beforehand.  Alistair has made it very clear since Ostagar how he feels about Loghain.  You made him king.  He's in charge.  Only by using Anora as leverage can you convince him to do otherwise.  Maybe the writers could have given you a futile dialogue option to disuade him, but he's his own man, err KING, and it's obvious what he wants to do and - importantly - what is JUST.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]dainbramage wrote...

2. Riordan isn't the king. The guy who wants him dead is the king. Again, all opinions other than alistair's are moot.[/quote]

Except Alistair never gave his opinion as king like I pointed out above.  On top of that, I'm not saying Riordan's opinion overrules the king, I'm saying I wanted a chance to VOICE Riordan's opinion and reasoning.  Even if Alistair then said "Nope, I still want Loghain dead."  Especially it sounds like a Grey Warden needs to die to kill an archdemon, which sounds like a fitting fate for Loghain.  "Alistair, good news!  We can kill Loghain by destroying his soul and ending the Blight so neither of us needs to die."[/quote]

This has the same answer as #1.  Alistair told you the entire game his belief.  You aren't going to convince him otherwise.  Only under very specific circumstances and pre-arranged deals can the GW force him to accept Loghain as a warden.  When you finish the game, read the DA:O wiki and find out what Alistair does if you spare Loghain and these specific conditions are not met. 

Also, the GW (nor Alistair) does NOT know a Grew Warden has to die to kill the archdemon at that point, so that's irrelevant.  It sounds like you mostly want the option to voice your opinion, but the writers felt such a line would be pointless since Alistair's intentions were made crystal clear, he is king, and you had the opportunity to compel him to accept your solution via anora.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]dainbramage wrote...

3. and 4. Now he's a hero who helped save ferelden from the blight, and you're executing him. mkay.[/quote]

No, he's a criminal under suspended sentence of death who lives only as long as he proves useful.[/quote]

Now he's not only the hero who threw out the Orleasians, now he is also the savior of Thedas from the blight .. and you're going to execute him?  :innocent:  Such a man sounds exceedingly useful, no?

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]dainbramage wrote...

5. So you do that and what... nonstandard game over?[/quote]

Or...Alistair agrees to let Loghain live for the moment?  I'd bet Fereldan that he's too noble and good-hearted to "force" me to walk away like that.[/quote]

And you would be wrong.  As per his his nobility, concept of good-heartedness, and concept of duty, he packs up and LEAVES the Grey Wardens if you spare Loghain. 

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]dainbramage wrote...

You gave someone executive power and were surprised when they used it. A problem with videogame logic is that the PC is way too influential.[/quote]

Except, again, Alistair never said "Now that I'm king, execute Loghain."  Not once.  It was apparently assumed that because I supported Alistair (AFTER wanting to induct Loghain) that I pulled a 180 and wanted Loghain dead with NO discussion or proclamation.[/quote]

Alistair told you the whole game his feelings about Loghain before he became king.  The game does not assume you want Loghain dead.  You went to the Landsmeet to make Alistair king.  Loghain must be removed from power for this to happen.  You did nothing to beforehand to tie Alistair's hands and compel him to do something he was very much against.  And you're surprised Loghain winds up dead?  Also, you *dont* have to execute Loghain.  You can decline and make Alistair do it.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]dainbramage wrote...

Good on bioware for going against that (in an incredibly tiny amount... why are you choosing the ruler anyway) for once.[/quote]

Because as someone who is the current leader of the Grey Wardens in the area, ended the curse of the werewolves, survived the Deep Roads and confronted two Dwarf Paragons, cleansed the Circle of a demonic infestation, saved Redcliffe, found the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and much much more...that I might have a good perspective on who might make a good ruler?

Especially as the whole noble vote was "I stand with the Grey Wardens!"[/quote]

No.  You have a good perspective of who might make a good warrior, adventurer, or fighter.  Killing darkspawn and finding artifacts have nothing to do with political leadership.  In fact, by allowing your personal feelings against Anora to interfere in your ideal soultion at the Landsmeet suggests your GW is better at killing bandits than understanding what it takes to be a good ruler.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

She even tells you that as soon as you rescue her. She explicitly says she must avoid being recognised by both Howe's people and the palace people.[/quote]

What does this have to do with what I said?

She didn't say "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien before killing her, I asked you not to do that!"

She basically says "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien, I barely managed to escape Cauthrien and the palace after that!"

Which makes ZERO sense because Cauthrien was dead.  She didn't have to escape from ANYONE to get to Eamon's estate after that fight.[/quote]

You assume Anora stuck around for the conclusion of the fight.  She doesn't and nor should she.  She doesn't know you killed Cauthrien and she did have to escape.  Her dialogue makes perfect sense.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yeah, she tells you not to rat her out to anyone and you do exactly that.

How dare she get upset.[/quote]

Two points.

1, see above, she's not upset about being ratted out, she's apparently upset about having to sneak away from the palace after Cauthrien takes her back there.  Except Cauthrien was dead, so...amount of sense is registering as zero here.

2, perhaps you could enlighten me about a better option, assuming the goal is not having the PC die and avoiding slaughtering a bunch of guards?  Going willingly to a prison run by Loghain after he's already hired assassins and poisoned an arl and much more is suicidal, that makes no sense.  I'd expect my character to die because ever arriving at the cell.  Attacking at once fails the second objective.  That means my only option is to say I'm rescuing Anora.

Then I can either attack (fails second objective), taunt Cauthrien (fails second objective), or reveal Anora and try to end this peacefully somehow (which winds up failing since she backstabs me).

On top of all of this, I don't have an option to tell Anora (when she complains about my actions in a way that makes no sense anyway) that perhaps SHE could tell me a better choice (or just yell at her that I didn't have a better alternative).

How dare I be upset.
[/quote]

1. See above.  She doesn't stick around when you fight Cauthrien.

2. You have no good options.  Your comments seem to suggest that you dislike it when the game does not give you the particular option you wish to take.  You also seem to think anora is backstabbing you.  She's not; she's is trying to survive.  You are wanted criminals who illegally broke into the Arl of Denerim's estate and are faceed against the Captain of the Guard who has a vertitable army.  She already thinks she's in grave danager and you expect her to side with you?!?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 décembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[dainbramage]

MagicalMaster wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

1. Clearly he's not

You're simply factually incorrect on this.  For the simple reason that I never had the chance to say this.  We went from "I won't stand beside him as a brother!" to "That's fine, be king" to having my character immediately going into execution mode.  Not only did I not have a chance to (successfully or unsuccessfully) talk Alistair out of killing Loghain, Alistair never even said "I demand Loghain executed since I'm king."

He said NOTHING about Loghain after I declared him king.  Not a peep.  But my PC apparently decided to execute Loghain.

Before you make him king (not after) he says he'll execute Loghain (he says something like "if that's what I have to do to see loghain dead, I will"). You then re-choose between him and Anora. You not paying attention or being too liberal with the escape key isn't a plot hole.

Especially it sounds like a Grey Warden needs to die to kill an archdemon, which sounds like a fitting fate for Loghain.  "Alistair, good news!  We can kill Loghain by destroying his soul and ending the Blight so neither of us needs to die."

You don't know this at that point. And Riordan isn't about to announce a grey warden secret in front of everyone important in ferelden (plus he assumes alistair and pc know).

dainbramage wrote...

3. and 4. Now he's a hero who helped save ferelden from the blight, and you're executing him. mkay.

No, he's a criminal under suspended sentence of death who lives only as long as he proves useful.

In which case, why would Loghain agree to that?


Rest is mostly countered by other people.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dainbramage wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

3. and 4. Now he's a hero who helped save ferelden from the blight, and you're executing him. mkay.

No, he's a criminal under suspended sentence of death who lives only as long as he proves useful.

In which case, why would Loghain agree to that?

Because he honestly doesn't want Ferelden to be destroyed. Being willing to do things he finds distasteful to avoid that is kind of his thing.

[Mike3207]

I have to take issue about the accusation that Loghain is a criminal.The Landsmeet is not a court, and it can't establish his guilt or innocence in criminal matters. What it can do, and what it did do, was to establish a political penalty. They stripped his teyrnir as a result of the Landsmeet.

If you really want to punish him for his alleged crimes(it is alleged until he's found guilty in a court of his peers), there has to be a criminal/civil trial. Instead, we get the suggestion he be made a Warden and any possibility of criminal punishment goes away. That might be best thing to do after all.

[theskymoves]

Does Ferelden have a judicial system that provides for trial-by-peer? (And cites, please. Speculation and headcanon is pointless.)

[Mike3207]

theskymoves wrote...

Does Ferelden have a judicial system that provides for trial-by-peer? (And cites, please. Speculation and headcanon is pointless.)

The Warden serves as a judge in Awakenings and they have jails in Fereden. Beyond that?

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer. it might be speculation, but all I've got.