69 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mike Smith wrote...

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer.

Imprisonment without trial is a thing. If you don't believe me, ask Howe's prisoners.

[Joy Divison]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer.

Imprisonment without trial is a thing. If you don't believe me, ask Howe's prisoners.

Just bring a high level cleric with you to help commune with the inmates.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

She even tells you that as soon as you rescue her. She explicitly says she must avoid being recognised by both Howe's people and the palace people.

What does this have to do with what I said?

You were talking about her betraying you, when you essentially did it first. I confess to some bias against 'Anora betrayed me!' posts, because they tend towards labelling the NPC an evil fiend for putting her own interests above the PC's. So I apologise for that

She didn't say "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien before killing her, I asked you not to do that!"

She basically says "I can't believe you outed me to Cauthrien, I barely managed to escape Cauthrien and the palace after that!"

Which makes ZERO sense because Cauthrien was dead.  She didn't have to escape from ANYONE to get to Eamon's estate after that fight.

Well, it's possible the game assumes you didn't kill Cauthrien. It's pretty obvious the fight is heavily stacked to her advantage; I don't think the devs really accounted for her being beaten.

There are plenty of accounts of her showing up again when you go to enter the Landsmeet if you 'killed' her at Howe's estate, and lots of people have killed her twice as a result.

1, see above, she's not upset about being ratted out, she's apparently upset about having to sneak away from the palace after Cauthrien takes her back there.  Except Cauthrien was dead, so...amount of sense is registering as zero here.

As to that, my explanation above would probably answer that. It's something the devs just seem to have overlooked.

2, perhaps you could enlighten me about a better option, assuming the goal is not having the PC die and avoiding slaughtering a bunch of guards?  Going willingly to a prison run by Loghain after he's already hired assassins and poisoned an arl and much more is suicidal, that makes no sense.  I'd expect my character to die because ever arriving at the cell.  Attacking at once fails the second objective.  That means my only option is to say I'm rescuing Anora.

Then I can either attack (fails second objective), taunt Cauthrien (fails second objective), or reveal Anora and try to end this peacefully somehow (which winds up failing since she backstabs me).

The best option depends on your priorities. Cauthrien is Loghain's most loyal lieutenant, and outing Anora to her seems like a terrible idea because she told you if she's turned over to Loghain's people her father might have her killed for fleeing the palace. She is actively defying him now.

What's more, even if Cauthrien believes you and Anora backs you up, you did still just murder Arl/Teyrn Howe.

And slaughter a lot of guards.

What would you do in Ser Cauthrien's position, as a defender of the city and upholder of the law? Let the PC go right away?

Sometimes we're not offered the 'get cake and eat it too' option.

On top of all of this, I don't have an option to tell Anora (when she complains about my actions in a way that makes no sense anyway) that perhaps SHE could tell me a better choice (or just yell at her that I didn't have a better alternative).

How dare I be upset.

Yes, even when she still helps you uncover evidence against her father anyway. A few tart words are terrible to hear.

If it makes you feel any better, your companions have some choice things to say about Anora's behaviour, if they're with you when you rescued her. I believe Zevran suggests slitting her throat.

[Angrywolves]

Mike Smith wrote...

I think Gaider decided some time ago Ferelden would be headed for civil war-that's why there will be no royal children.

Alistair hasn't disappeared in either of the first 2 games. He might in DAI, but that's a decision that has yet to be made.

Therer's another thread where players have discussed Allistair's disappearance but I don't recall which thread it was.If I find it I will post a link.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Joy Divison wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer.

Imprisonment without trial is a thing. If you don't believe me, ask Howe's prisoners.

Just bring a high level cleric with you to help commune with the inmates.

I dunno. The still-living Soris, Oswin, and Vaughn seem to say enough on their own, whether or not that last one deserved what he got. I'll just bet Oswin could use a cleric, though. Thedasian mages apparently aren't equal to everything Thedasian lords can do without a trial, even if we don't count Vaughn's decision to summarily execute the CE PC if he/she defies him.

[metatheurgist]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
What would you do in Ser Cauthrien's position, as a defender of the city and upholder of the law? Let the PC go right away?

I don't have a dog in this fight but I'd ask her to do the same thing she did when she abandoned her king and fellow soldiers and ignored a pre-arranged signal to attack during a pre-planned military maneuver - walk away and pretend nothing happened.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This would be a lot easier to ask if you were the person on whose orders she did so.

[Joy Divison]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer.

Imprisonment without trial is a thing. If you don't believe me, ask Howe's prisoners.

Just bring a high level cleric with you to help commune with the inmates.

I dunno. The still-living Soris, Oswin, and Vaughn seem to say enough on their own, whether or not that last one deserved what he got. I'll just bet Oswin could use a cleric, though. Thedasian mages apparently aren't equal to everything Thedasian lords can do without a trial, even if we don't count Vaughn's decision to summarily execute the CE PC if he/she defies him.

I must have missed them from all the corpses hanging from the ceiling and piled on the floors...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Joy Divison wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

If they have jails, it follows they have a court system of sorts, even if not trial by peer.

Imprisonment without trial is a thing. If you don't believe me, ask Howe's prisoners.

Just bring a high level cleric with you to help commune with the inmates.

I dunno. The still-living Soris, Oswin, and Vaughn seem to say enough on their own, whether or not that last one deserved what he got. I'll just bet Oswin could use a cleric, though. Thedasian mages apparently aren't equal to everything Thedasian lords can do without a trial, even if we don't count Vaughn's decision to summarily execute the CE PC if he/she defies him.

I must have missed them from all the corpses hanging from the ceiling and piled on the floors...

I can't imagine how you missed all of them. The corpses only talk when you have a cleric. Oswin and Vaughn are quite loud no matter who you bring.

[MagicalMaster]

Note: due to this whole fiasco, I've wound up spoiling the rest of the game by looking up endings and trying to figure out which one I want since I apparently cannot get the original goal.  So feel free to throw out spoilers now or whatever.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1) Revealing Anora to Cauthrien was a really big betrayal of the trust she placed in you (she expressly tells you to NOT do such a thing) so you kinda vindicated the accusations against you by doing so.[/quote]

Whose accusations are we talking about, to be clear?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

2) Loghain told Cauthrien to take the Wardens alive, and at this point Howe's dead so you don't have to worry about torture (as much). Howe was pretty much the one doing all the torturing.[/quote]
Perhaps I missed a line of dialogue, but I certainly don't recall being told that Loghain wanted the Wardens alive -- merely that Cauthrien was ordered to arrest me and presumably I would be then executed (I *might* be shown mercy).  Assuming I even lived that long, as mentioned -- going to the prison of a man who has approved poisonings and assassinations (even if they were potentially Howe's ideas) sounds suicidal.  It doesn't even require Loghain to explicity want me dead -- all it takes is some guard or captain or whatever who thinks he'll earn Loghain's favor by making sure an "accident" happens to the Grey Wardens.

If Cauthrien wanted to escort me to Eamon's estate and put my under house arrest, sure, we can talk.  But nope.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You revealed Anora to Cauthrien when she told you to not tell her father's people of who she was for fear of what might happen. As a result, a fight broke out and Anora had to avoid all of the soldiers, lest Cauthrien capture her and take her back to her father. She evaded Cauthrien back at the palace just barely, and then you told Cauthrien at the Arl of Denerim's Estate "Hey, here's Anora!"[/quote]
You're lacking some reading comprehension here.

She didn't barely evade Cauthrien back at the palance -- Cauthrien was DEAD.  Cauthrien NEVER returned to the palace.  Anora never had to escape Cauthrien once I freed her and Anora never had to return to the palace.  Yet she said she had to do BOTH of those which is nonsensical.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The thing she didn't want to happen, you basically tried to make happen. And yet you criticize her for your failings.[/quote]

I criticize her for backstabbing me and then acting like a lunatic.

Me: "That's nice.  Almost makes me want to kill you less."

Anora: "Well, you had a complete lack of subtlety!  You revealed my presence to Cauthrien!"

Me: "Yes, but..."

Anora: "And then I had to go back to the palace with Cauthrien!"

Me: "Wait, WHAT?  Cauthrien was dead!"

Anora: "And then I barely managed to slip away from Cauthrien to come here!"

Me: "CAUTHRIEN WAS DEAD.  WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?"

Anora: "I can't believe you put me through that experience!"

Me: "WHAT EXPERIENCE?  CAUTHRIEN WAS DEAD.  YOU NEVER WENT BACK TO THE PALACE.  YOU NEVER HAD TO GIVE ANYONE THE SLIP.  ARE YOU INSANE?"

Consider the following (hypothetical since it doesn't happen) conversation...

Me: "That's nice.  Almost makes me want to kill you less."

Anora: "Well, you had a complete lack of subtlety!  You revealed my presence to Cauthrien!"

Me: "Yes, but I had no choice.  Unless you WANTED me to slaughter Cauthrien and all of those guards for trying to do their jobs?"

Anora: "Well, no, Cauthrien's death would have been a waste..." (her near exact words if you don't reveal her and kill Cauthrien)

Me: "Yet you removed any chance of ending it peacefully and are responsible for the deaths of those 15ish men and women."  (remember, Cauthrien and her guards attack YOU because of Anora's words)

Anora: "Look, I'm sorry.  I was afraid of what would happen to me if Cauthrien captured your group which I thought would happen.  I shouldn't have underestimated you and I shouldn't have sent those men and women to their deaths, I just didn't see a better choice at the time.  Could we try leaving that behind us and starting again?"

Me: "Fine."

-----

Except, of course, that DOESN'T happen.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Who betrayed who here? You betrayed her.[/quote]
I revealed her presence in a desperate attempt to avoid having to slaughter a women who Anora apparently highly respected (which, to be fair, I didn't know at the time) along with a dozen people just trying to do their jobs since I had no other options.

Her response was to ensure the deaths of all of those people.

Anora: "Warden, I'm lending you $10 and I REALLY need you give it back when I ask."

Me: "Okay."

....

Anora: "I need the $10 back."

Me: "Anora, I'm sorry, but valid circumstances make it impossible for me to return that $10 at this point."

Anora: "Well, then I'll burn down your house and murder your family.  You did betray me first, after all."

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I can only assume the writers didn't want to add the next logical dialogue option.[/quote]
It seems they assumed you wanted Loghain dead if you supported just Alistair -- which isn't the case.  I mean, hell, you can have Anora and Alistair marry and rule either EITHER Loghain dead or alive so it's not like Anora is critical in keeping Loghain alive -- she simply won't marry Alistair if Alistair kills Loghain.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Riordan hints at having a reason, if I remember correctly. But there's no way he's going to voice it in front of the Landsmeet.[/quote]
Never said he would.  But could easily say "Instead of executing Loghain at this exact second, throw him in jail and later (in private) we can discuss this with Riordan.  If we buy his reasoning, Loghain gets inducted.  If we don't, Loghain gets executed."  Or pull Alistair and Riordan aside for a 60 second conversation where Riordan very quickly explains without any non-Grey Warden hearing.  Or something like that.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And you're trusting the people as a whole to see it this way? They've been hearing nothing but bad things about you from the local media for the past year, and nothing but good about Loghain for about thirty times that long.[/quote]
So what do they think if Loghain simply gets executed at the Landsmeet?  Same reasoning applies, no?

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Don't forget that he walks if you agree to spare Loghain. Argue that it's inconsistent with most of his character if you want, but don't argue that he won't do it.[/quote]
There's a difference between walking on you as the Grey Wardens (who he still trusts will fight the Blight, but with Loghain instead of him) and walking on all of Fereldan (and beyond).

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And if I remember correctly the context makes absolutely clear that he wants Loghain dead in exchange. Stepping aside to allow this instead of kacking him yourself should have been an option, (edit: if it wasn't, which I don't really remember) but I'm pretty sure it was clear in context that Loghain surviving this wasn't.[/quote]
I remember it being absolutely clear that Alistair didn't want him in the Grey Wardens and wouldn't fight with him.  End statement.  Again, Loghain can live OR die if Anora rules, so why can't Loghain live OR die if just Alistair rules?  Anora isn't enough to stop Loghain from dying in one situation anyway, she's not the fulcrum.

And yes, I didn't have to execute him myself, I meant it was assumed SOMEONE would execute him.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's more being a good killer than a good ruler. This isn't Orzammar you know.[/quote]
Finding the Ashes is about being a good killer?  Curing the werewolves is about being a good killer?  Saving the mages is about being a good killer?  Organizing Redcliffe's defense is about being a good killer?  Saving Connor AND Isolde's life is about being a good killer?  Etc.  Now, obviously, some people might play their Wardens as being vicious bastards who ARE nothing but good killers -- but mine isn't.

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And fair, I suppose. You can justify killing Anora, I guess, if only as a threat. Though punishing it just for retribution just strikes me as a bit petty.[/quote]
If you were king in medieval times (with all the culture that entails) and a person had personally betrayed you twice with no signs of remorse, you wouldn't take SOME action against them?  They've already demonstrated the desire and ability to attempt to harm you twice -- what does it take?

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

There's some blame to go around, really. Still, being irritated that you did the one thing you told her could get her killed, even if you didn't see any other option, is a bit understandable.[/quote]
Sure.  See the mock conversation above.  But acting like a bloodthirsty lunatic with no remorse...not so understandable.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Only by using Anora as leverage can you convince him to do otherwise.  Maybe the writers could have given you a futile dialogue option to disuade him, but he's his own man, err KING, and it's obvious what he wants to do and - importantly - what is JUST.[/quote]
I haven't replayed through the Landsmeet (since I basically have to go back and redo everything after killing Cauthrien, it seems), so I can't say exactly what dialogue options exist...but you're free to "spare" OR kill Loghain with Anora as leverage from what I've read.  She's not the deciding factor.

And which is more just?  Simply killing Loghain or using him to try to prevent the deaths of innocents?  It's basically community service that ends in death no matter what for Loghain -- the question is simply when.  It's a way to get some good out of the situation.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Also, the GW (nor Alistair) does NOT know a Grew Warden has to die to kill the archdemon at that point, so that's irrelevant.  It sounds like you mostly want the option to voice your opinion, but the writers felt such a line would be pointless since Alistair's intentions were made crystal clear, he is king, and you had the opportunity to compel him to accept your solution via anora.[/quote]
I wanted the chance to either pull Riordan aside with Alistair for a chat or imprison Loghain and chat with Riordan/Alistair later -- I didn't know what Riordan wanted (both IC and OOC at the time) but I figured it was pretty damn important given all of the other warden secrets.

And given Anora was acting like a pyscho **** (edit: apparently this word is acceptable in-game but not on the forums for the game -- interesting) I didn't exactly want to involve her at all.  Plus apparently I could kill Loghain even if I had Alistair/Anora marry.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

And you would be wrong.  As per his his nobility, concept of good-heartedness, and concept of duty, he packs up and LEAVES the Grey Wardens if you spare Loghain.[/quote]

Like I said earlier in this post, vastly different things.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You did nothing to beforehand to tie Alistair's hands and compel him to do something he was very much against.[/quote]
There isn't anything to do to tie Alistair's hands according to the wiki.  Even if he marries Anora you can still kill Loghain.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

No.  You have a good perspective of who might make a good warrior, adventurer, or fighter.  Killing darkspawn and finding artifacts have nothing to do with political leadership.  In fact, by allowing your personal feelings against Anora to interfere in your ideal soultion at the Landsmeet suggests your GW is better at killing bandits than understanding what it takes to be a good ruler. [/quote]
Quoting from above in this post:

"Finding the Ashes is about being a good killer?  Curing the werewolves is about being a good killer?  Saving the mages is about being a good killer?  Organizing Redcliffe's defense is about being a good killer?  Saving Connor AND Isolde's life is about being a good killer?  Etc.  Now, obviously, some people might play their Wardens as being vicious bastards who ARE nothing but good killers -- but mine isn't."

Anora has proven bloodthirsty, untrustworthy, and has betrayed both the Warden and Alistair twice.  I'm having a very hard time imaging those as being qualities of being a good ruler.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You assume Anora stuck around for the conclusion of the fight.  She doesn't and nor should she.  She doesn't know you killed Cauthrien and she did have to escape.  Her dialogue makes perfect sense.[/quote]
No, I don't assume that.  No matter what, she would NEVER have to give Cauthrien the slip at the palace since Cauthrien died and NEVER returned to the palace.  Her statements make zero sense no matter what (unless you get captured, which I didn't).

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

She already thinks she's in grave danager and you expect her to side with you?!?[/quote]
See the mock conversation above.

----------

Will have to answer rest later.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 20 décembre 2013 - 09:50 .

[Corker]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

You assume Anora stuck around for the conclusion of the fight.  She doesn't and nor should she.  She doesn't know you killed Cauthrien and she did have to escape.  Her dialogue makes perfect sense.

No, I don't assume that.  No matter what, she would NEVER have to give Cauthrien the slip at the palace since Cauthrien died and NEVER returned to the palace.  Her statements make zero sense no matter what (unless you get captured, which I didn't).

Unless you've found the secret Barry "the Flash" Allen Origin, your Warden takes a finite amount of time to kill Cauthrien.  During that time, Anora is running the hell away.  She does not hang around to see if you kill Cauthrien, or if Cauthrien is going to kill you.

She uses the bigass fight you are having as a cover to run away.

Her Move score is evidently high enough that she's cleared the Arl's palace before your combat is over.

You may notice, after the fight with Cauthrien, that Anora is not there.  Because she ran away.  While you were fighting.

She's gone. Skedaddled.  Booked. Took it on the lam.

Because if you lose that fight - and you can, and the game won't end - she still needs to get to Eamon's for the game to proceed.  Because they were not going to write an entire branch covering the possibility of Cauthrien taking Anora back to her father.

Which is what would happen if you lost, and she hadn't run away.

Which she is scared might happen when you fight Cauthrien.

So she runs away.  While you're fighting.  Because she doesn't know if you're going to win, and isn't going to hang around to find out.

So whether you win or lose, she has escaped.  Or "been rescued." 

Which is the point of the "Rescue the Queen" quest.

Modifié par Corker, 20 décembre 2013 - 06:22 .

[Corker]

theskymoves wrote...

Does Ferelden have a judicial system that provides for trial-by-peer? (And cites, please. Speculation and headcanon is pointless.)

The wiki turns up nothing for a search on "jury," and "trial" returns mostly the "Trial of Crows" questline, the Gauntlet, and the Dwarf Noble's trial.

There is this: http://dragonage.wik...n#Ferelden_law  Looks to be based on English practice circa the 1200s or so - county officials (banns and sherrifs) keep track of local malefactors for judgement when the royal judges come to town.  The citations are all to the Green Ronin Dragon Age tabletop RPG.  So... canon? Demi-canon?  Not canon?  Depends on your feelings on the associated intellectual properties.

As mentioned, the court business quest in Awakening suggests that nobles can expect to have their complaints addressed by their feudal lord.  IIRC, there's a deserter from the Vigil who also is put before the arl for judgement; I would expect that this is because the Vigil is the arl's own holding.  A deserter from the City of Amaranthine would not be dragged out to the Vigil for judgement; his feudal lord (the Bann of Amaranthine) is perfectly capable of exacting high justice if necessary.

(And Dalish elves residing in Ferelden appear to have no standing under law, nor do they expect to. See the events of the Dalish Origin, and http://dragonage.wik..._to_the_Militia )

[theskymoves]

Corker wrote...

theskymoves wrote...

Does Ferelden have a judicial system that provides for trial-by-peer? (And cites, please. Speculation and headcanon is pointless.)

The wiki turns up nothing for a search on "jury," and "trial" returns mostly the "Trial of Crows" questline, the Gauntlet, and the Dwarf Noble's trial.

There is this: http://dragonage.wik...n#Ferelden_law  Looks to be based on English practice circa the 1200s or so - county officials (banns and sherrifs) keep track of local malefactors for judgement when the royal judges come to town.  The citations are all to the Green Ronin Dragon Age tabletop RPG.  So... canon? Demi-canon?  Not canon?  Depends on your feelings on the associated intellectual properties.

As mentioned, the court business quest in Awakening suggests that nobles can expect to have their complaints addressed by their feudal lord.  IIRC, there's a deserter from the Vigil who also is put before the arl for judgement; I would expect that this is because the Vigil is the arl's own holding.  A deserter from the City of Amaranthine would not be dragged out to the Vigil for judgement; his feudal lord (the Bann of Amaranthine) is perfectly capable of exacting high justice if necessary.

(And Dalish elves residing in Ferelden appear to have no standing under law, nor do they expect to. See the events of the Dalish Origin, and http://dragonage.wik..._to_the_Militia )

Yup, and I knew all that. Another poster asserted that Loghain was entitled to and should have recieved a trial by his peers, and I wondered if he had some information that had eluded me. (He didn't.)

[Angrywolves]

Other than what he claimed should have been done to Howe, aka he should have been brought before the Senechal, there's nothing else.

[MagicalMaster]

[quote]Corker wrote...

Unless you've found the secret Barry "the Flash" Allen Origin, your Warden takes a finite amount of time to kill Cauthrien.  During that time, Anora is running the hell away.  She does not hang around to see if you kill Cauthrien, or if Cauthrien is going to kill you.[/quote]
You're making about as much sense as Anora.  See image:



Note the fifth "line" which says "I barely managed to slip away from her when we reached the palace."

That indicates Cauthrien took Anora back to the palace AFTER the fight at which point Anora had to give Cauthrien the slip and make it to Eamon's.

EXCEPT CAUTHRIEN WAS DEAD.  SO THAT MAKES NO SENSE.  I don't know if I can't be any clearer here.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

Before you make him king (not after) he says he'll execute Loghain (he says something like "if that's what I have to do to see loghain dead, I will"). You then re-choose between him and Anora. You not paying attention or being too liberal with the escape key isn't a plot hole.[/quote]
Re-choose?  That was the first choice I had between Anora and Alistair.  Though I'm watching a video where he does say "if that's what it takes to see Loghain get justice, I'll do it, I'll take the crown."

https://www.youtube....ePnnLDj8g#t=102

Though he then says "Fine.  You want Loghain in the Wardens so badly?  Then I'll leave the Wardens to marry Anora."

Which could have just as easily been "Fine.  You want Loghain the Wardens so badly?  Then I'll leave the Wardens to rule Fereldan."  You can kill OR "spare" Loghain if Alistair marries Anora.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

You don't know this at that point. And Riordan isn't about to announce a grey warden secret in front of everyone important in ferelden (plus he assumes alistair and pc know).[/quote]
Never suggested he would, it would have been something to discuss either briefly in private or preferably lock Loghain up for now, discuss it later in private, and decide what to do then.

[quote]dainbramage wrote...

In which case, why would Loghain agree to that?[/quote]
As others said, Loghain is all about doing stuff he doesn't like to try to save Fereldan.  And he'd happily carry a nuclear bomb into the capital of Orlais and manually push the button if he could, I imagine.

[quote]Mike Smith wrote...

I have to take issue about the accusation that Loghain is a criminal.The Landsmeet is not a court, and it can't establish his guilt or innocence in criminal matters. What it can do, and what it did do, was to establish a political penalty. They stripped his teyrnir as a result of the Landsmeet.[/quote]
Why can he be executed, then?  What's the reasoning?  Why can't that line of reasoning be applied if you then simply object to the title of criminal?

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

You were talking about her betraying you, when you essentially did it first. I confess to some bias against 'Anora betrayed me!' posts, because they tend towards labelling the NPC an evil fiend for putting her own interests above the PC's. So I apologise for that [/quote]
Yeah, that's not my issue.  I would have accepted an apology and explanation rather than a lunatic's crazy raving.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, it's possible the game assumes you didn't kill Cauthrien. It's pretty obvious the fight is heavily stacked to her advantage; I don't think the devs really accounted for her being beaten.[/quote]
If you kill Cauthrien without revealing Anora then Anora just says "Cauthrien's death was a waste" so it was obviously taken into account.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

What would you do in Ser Cauthrien's position, as a defender of the city and upholder of the law? Let the PC go right away?[/quote]

1, honor the queen's wishes and ignore what happened (requires Anora to not stab you in the back at that moment -- or take back what she said once she realizes Cauthrien is going to immediately attack)

2, demand to take the PC to Eamon's and place him under house arrest or get Eamon to accept responsibility.

3, basically ANYTHING besides demanding to throw the PC into the jail of a poisoner, betrayer, and assassin-hirer where they're stripped of their gear and left naked.

I mean, what if Eamon had done it instead of the Grey Warden?  Yes, I understand the Grey Wardens aren't noble and thus the rules aren't the same but the situation (especially with the queen involved) is a hell of a lot different than something like the City Elf origin where random commoners kill an noble.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Sometimes we're not offered the 'get cake and eat it too' option.[/quote]
Sure.  And this thread wasn't even really about having to kill Cauthrien (which I don't like but can accept).  It's about Anora's completely nonsensical reaction once you kill Cauthrien.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yes, even when she still helps you uncover evidence against her father anyway. A few tart words are terrible to hear. [/quote]
"Shadow of Light Dragon, I appreciate you helping me.  But you stole $50 from me last week.  I'll still help you in return anyway."

Doesn't that seem a TAD off if, in fact, you had not stolen $50 from me last week?  I definitely did NOT put Anora in the position of returning with Cauthrien to the palace and having to escape from that.  But Anora claims that happens.

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

If it makes you feel any better, your companions have some choice things to say about Anora's behaviour, if they're with you when you rescued her. I believe Zevran suggests slitting her throat.[/quote]
When would they say this?

[Joy Divison]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Only by using Anora as leverage can you convince him to do otherwise.  Maybe the writers could have given you a futile dialogue option to disuade him, but he's his own man, err KING, and it's obvious what he wants to do and - importantly - what is JUST.[/quote]
I haven't replayed through the Landsmeet (since I basically have to go back and redo everything after killing Cauthrien, it seems), so I can't say exactly what dialogue options exist...but you're free to "spare" OR kill Loghain with Anora as leverage from what I've read.  She's not the deciding factor.

And which is more just?  Simply killing Loghain or using him to try to prevent the deaths of innocents?  It's basically community service that ends in death no matter what for Loghain -- the question is simply when.  It's a way to get some good out of the situation.[/quote]

Under no circumstances does Alistair rule alone and Loghain lives.  Only through special circumstances (you harndened him and he marries Anora) does he rule and allow Loghain to live.  How do you not see Anoraher as a deciding factor?

What is more just is irrlevant.  You are dealing with a would be king who very much wants to execute Loghain and believes it is just.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

And you would be wrong.  As per his his nobility, concept of good-heartedness, and concept of duty, he packs up and LEAVES the Grey Wardens if you spare Loghain.[/quote]

Like I said earlier in this post, vastly different things.[/quote]

And you would be wrong again.  Walking away from the darksapawn threat which threatens all of Thedas is infinitely worse than walking away from kingly duties of Ferledan.  Rulers are easily replaced.  GWs are not.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You did nothing to beforehand to tie Alistair's hands and compel him to do something he was very much against.[/quote]
There isn't anything to do to tie Alistair's hands according to the wiki.  Even if he marries Anora you can still kill Loghain.[/quote]

If Alistair rules alone Loghain ALWAYS dies.  That is the game telling you if he is left too his own devices and allowed to make his own decision, he will *always* do what he thinks is right and just.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

No.  You have a good perspective of who might make a good warrior, adventurer, or fighter.  Killing darkspawn and finding artifacts have nothing to do with political leadership.  In fact, by allowing your personal feelings against Anora to interfere in your ideal soultion at the Landsmeet suggests your GW is better at killing bandits than understanding what it takes to be a good ruler. [/quote]
Quoting from above in this post:

"Finding the Ashes is about being a good killer?  Curing the werewolves is about being a good killer?  Saving the mages is about being a good killer?  Organizing Redcliffe's defense is about being a good killer?  Saving Connor AND Isolde's life is about being a good killer?  Etc.  Now, obviously, some people might play their Wardens as being vicious bastards who ARE nothing but good killers -- but mine isn't."

Anora has proven bloodthirsty, untrustworthy, and has betrayed both the Warden and Alistair twice.  I'm having a very hard time imaging those as being qualities of being a good ruler.[/quote]

You have me confused with the guy who you said needed to learn reading comprehension.  Warrior, adventurer, fighter does not equal killer.  If Ferledan needs someone skilled with demonology or finding religious relics, they'll send your GW an email.  Also, most of the people you'll find on historians lists of "great rulers" have the qualities you think Anora has.  Oh, Anora only "betrays" you if you do not promise to spare her father...something she makes it very clear she wants as part of the bargain.  She "betrays" you at the Arl of Denerim only because you betray her first ... or did you think she wears that armor because it is comfortable?

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You assume Anora stuck around for the conclusion of the fight.  She doesn't and nor should she.  She doesn't know you killed Cauthrien and she did have to escape.  Her dialogue makes perfect sense.[/quote]
No, I don't assume that.  No matter what, she would NEVER have to give Cauthrien the slip at the palace since Cauthrien died and NEVER returned to the palace.  Her statements make zero sense no matter what (unless you get captured, which I didn't).[/quote]

Yes you do assume it.  if you don;t like my explanation, then read Corker's.  We are right.

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...
[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

She already thinks she's in grave danager and you expect her to side with you?!?[/quote]
See the mock conversation above.
[/quote]

Your "conversation" is your GW talking a wall.

YOU were the first to betray Anora.  She was in disguise and feared for her life.  You ignored that.

You are quick to assert you have no choice when you do - surrender - if you don't want to "slaughter" the guards for doing the jobs, yet you fail to recognize when your GW's actions put Anora in a situation where she has no choice.  Anora, the would be queen who is under house arrest and escaping with wanted criminals for treason who have just murdered the Arl of Denerim, is somehow going to make matters better for herself by vouching for you?!?  Or that such an uncompromising position would make it even possible to convince Cauthrien of anything but the truth, i.e., you broke into the estate, murdered the Arl, and are taking Anora away?  Right...

How is Anora responsible?  Because of her unwillingness to put herself into the Gallows noose that is fitted for you?  Your GW broke into the estate illegally, you murdered Howe, and your GW did not surrender when given the opportunity.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 décembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[MagicalMaster]

First of all, because of this mess I've been having to do research to figure out what the hell the game will allow.  My primary goals at this point are Loghain alive and Alistair must be ruling (I don't care who the queen is, if there is a queen).

As far as I can tell (according to the wiki), the only way I can do this is to "spare" Loghain, have Alistair and Anora marry, *AND* Alistair must be hardened.  I'm willing to reply the section since the Alienage, it's only like 15-30 minutes if I speed through.

HOWEVER, Alistair is not hardened which apparently is required for this to work.  Is there a console command or script I can run to change him to being hardened -- a way to change the flag?  I'm not redoing the whole campaign.

Edit: yes, seems there is, trying to get the console commands to work.

Edit 2: Success, I think.

Joy Divison wrote...

Only through special circumstances (you harndened him and he marries Anora) does he rule and allow Loghain to live.  How do you not see Anoraher as a deciding factor?

Because you can kill Loghain even with Alistair and Anora marrying.  It's not dependent on Anora alone.  Apparently hardening is a factor, though.

Joy Divison wrote...

Walking away from the darksapawn threat which threatens all of Thedas is infinitely worse than walking away from kingly duties of Ferledan.  Rulers are easily replaced.  GWs are not.

Agree to disagree on this.

Joy Divison wrote...

 Oh, Anora only "betrays" you if you do not promise to spare her father...something she makes it very clear she wants as part of the bargain.  She "betrays" you at the Arl of Denerim only because you betray her first ... or did you think she wears that armor because it is comfortable?

I made no bargain with Anora.  In fact, I said I would not support her.  Then I asked if she would support Alistair, *AND SHE SAID YES.*  She lied and betrayed me, crystal clear.  She did NOT say "If you won't support me, I won't support Alistair."  Could you argue she felt that was the pragmatic thing to do or something?  Possibly.  It's still a betrayal.

And I've covered the "betrayal" at Denerim above, multiple times.

1, I had no other choice to try to defuse the situation and make Cauthrien see reason.

2, while I could expect Anora to not be happy about this, I would expect an apology for her behavior back at Eamon's and her not to rant like a lunatic about something that didn't happen (her going with Cauthrien).

Joy Divison wrote...

Yes you do assume it.  if you don;t like my explanation, then read Corker's.  We are right.

No, you aren't.  Read my response to Corker.  Cauthrien never survived to return to the palace, therefore Anora never had to give her the slip at the palace.  Anora's dialogue only makes sense if I was captured and Anora was taken back to the palace by Cauthrien.  WHICH DID NOT HAPPEN.

Joy Divison wrote...

Your "conversation" is your GW talking a wall.

Look at the screenshot.  That is pretty much EXACTLY what Anora says.  Stuff that DID NOT HAPPEN.

Joy Divison wrote...

You are quick to assert you have no choice when you do - surrender - if you don't want to "slaughter" the guards for doing the jobs

Surrender to go to the jail of a poisoner, betrayer, assassin-hirer, and much more?  That's as much of a choice as choosing to stab myself in the chest.  Actually, stabbing myself in the chest would be a lot less painful, I suspect.

Now, OOC you might know you survive and escape -- but IC there's every reason to think surrendering will get you killed long before you even wind up on the executioner's block or something.  Just takes one guard to think he's doing the country a favor by stabbing you or one person to slip something into your food or one person to arrange an "accident" for you.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 21 décembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Joy Divison]

^ Wow. You just don't get it. You need to use your brain. She does NOT hang around when you fight Cauthrian. She does NOT have first-hand knowledge that she dead because as soon as your GW outs her, she does the same to you and ESCAPES, i.e., leaves the Arl's palace and gives the guard, (i.e. Cauthrian's guard) the SLIP. She's gone. I get it, the dialogue you're quoting isn't the best way that the writers could have conveyed what is 100% obvious to objective observers. BioWare should not have been lazy and recycled the lines Anora will use in the 90% of playthroughs people will take because winning the Cauthrian fight without exploits is very difficult.  But, geez, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 2 and 2 together here.

And Anora IS the decisive factor in keeping Loghain ALIVE. I know you can kill him if she is queen, that's not relevant because Loghain is DEAD in that scenario. I did not claim that Loghain always lives if Anora is on the throne. I said the only way Loghain can survive, Anora is always in some capacity on the throne. Not a coincidence considering Alistair's feelings on the matter.

You also keep saying you had no choice at the Arl of Denerim's estate. Yes you did. You just don't like the alternative. Which is *exactly* the same position that you put Anora in. In Anora's mind, she has NO CHOICE but to out you to Cauthrien. You only see things through your perspective. Somehow you have no problem when you betray people's trust because you think you have "no choice" (when you do), but you get all bent out of shape when other people do the same to you for the same reason. That you think she OWES you an apology says it all.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 décembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[Mike3207]

Politics is a dangerous business. Remember what happened to Harrowmount after Bhelen is named King?

Anyone who goes for the throne and fails better expect they'll lose their head as a result, and count themselves fortunate if they aren't. That applies to Loghain, Anora-even Alistair.

Anora spells it out pretty well when she asks for Alistair to be executed if she is made Queen and Alistair fails to take the throne. She mentions that rebellions can be raised in Alistair's name if he lives, whether or not he's involved in them. To secure the succession, the unsuccesful claimant has to die. If not, the monarch is taking his/her life in their hand.

In short(too late)-anyone who fails to take the throne can expect to die-criminal history or no.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 21 décembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[MagicalMaster]

Joy Divison wrote...

^ Wow. You just don't get it. You need to use your brain. She does NOT hang around when you fight Cauthrian. She does NOT have first-hand knowledge that she dead because as soon as your GW outs her, she does the same to you and ESCAPES, i.e., leaves the Arl's palace and gives the guard, (i.e. Cauthrian's guard) the SLIP. She's gone. I get it, the dialogue you're quoting isn't the best way that the writers could have conveyed what is 100% obvious to objective observers. BioWare should not have been lazy and recycled the lines Anora will use in the 90% of playthroughs people will take because winning the Cauthrian fight without exploits is very difficult.  But, geez, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 2 and 2 together here.

There are four possibilities here based on two binaries options (Cauthrien dies/get captured, reveal/don't reveal).

1. If you get captured and don't reveal, Anora just talks about how she was worried about you.

2.  If you kill Cauthrien and don't reveal, Anora talks about how Cauthrien's death was a waste (SO YES, SHE KNOWS CAUTHRIEN DIES).

3. If you get captured and reveal, Anora talks about how you revealed her and that she had to slip away from Cauthrien back at the palace.

4. If you kill Cauthrien and reveal...Anora talks about how you revealed her and that she had to slip away from Cauthrien back at the palace.  You can see that part of the dialogue in the screenshot I provided earlier.

One of these four does not make any sense and does not reflect reality.  It doesn't take Sherleck Holmes to figure out which (hint: it is VERY difficult for Cauthrien to return Anora to the palace if Cauthrien is dead).

Joy Divison wrote...

And Anora IS the decisive factor in keeping Loghain ALIVE. I know you can kill him if she is queen, that's not relevant because Loghain is DEAD in that scenario. I did not claim that Loghain always lives if Anora is on the throne. I said the only way Loghain can survive, Anora is always in some capacity on the throne. Not a coincidence considering Alistair's feelings on the matter.

Essentially she's a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition, then.

Joy Divison wrote...

You also keep saying you had no choice at the Arl of Denerim's estate. Yes you did. You just don't like the alternative. Which is *exactly* the same position that you put Anora in. In Anora's mind, she has NO CHOICE but to out you to Cauthrien. You only see things through your perspective.

I understand Anora thought she had no better choice at the time.  But I also think she was WRONG about that assessment and given how she comments Ser Cauthrien's death was a waste (exact words) if you don't reveal Anora, clearly she would prefer NOT to have Ser Cauthrien die.  So given that ANORA triggered Cauthrien to attack me when I was looking for a peaceful solution and Anora otherwise flat out says she DIDN'T want Cauthrien dead, one might expect to realize what she did was a MISTAKE.  Because it got Cauthrien killed and accomplished NOTHING good.

Hence why I expected an apology or at least an admission from Anora that she may not have handled it the best given the outcome.  Hence my earlier mock conversation which I'll requote now which I would have been FINE WITH (IF it existed):

Me: "That's nice.  Almost makes me want to kill you less."

Anora: "Well, you had a complete lack of subtlety!  You revealed my presence to Cauthrien!"

Me: "Yes, but I had no choice.  Unless you WANTED me to slaughter Cauthrien and all of those guards for trying to do their jobs?"

Anora: "Well, no, Cauthrien's death would have been a waste..." (her near exact words if you don't reveal her and kill Cauthrien)

Me: "Yet you removed any chance of ending it peacefully and are responsible for the deaths of those 15ish men and women."  (remember, Cauthrien and her guards attack YOU because of Anora's words)

Anora: "Look, I'm sorry.  I was afraid of what would happen to me if Cauthrien captured your group which I thought would happen.  I shouldn't have underestimated you and I shouldn't have sent those men and women to their deaths, I just didn't see a better choice at the time.  Could we try leaving that behind us and starting again?"

Me: "Fine."

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 21 décembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Angrywolves]

I did say I wondered if Cauthrien and Anora might have had a thing together.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mike Smith wrote...

Politics is a dangerous business. Remember what happened to Harrowmount after Bhelen is named King?

Anyone who goes for the throne and fails better expect they'll lose their head as a result, and count themselves fortunate if they aren't. That applies to Loghain, Anora-even Alistair.

Anora spells it out pretty well when she asks for Alistair to be executed if she is made Queen and Alistair fails to take the throne. She mentions that rebellions can be raised in Alistair's name if he lives, whether or not he's involved in them. To secure the succession, the unsuccesful claimant has to die. If not, the monarch is taking his/her life in their hand.

In short(too late)-anyone who fails to take the throne can expect to die-criminal history or no.

I thought Anora only did that if Loghain lived?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 décembre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Mike3207]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Politics is a dangerous business. Remember what happened to Harrowmount after Bhelen is named King?

Anyone who goes for the throne and fails better expect they'll lose their head as a result, and count themselves fortunate if they aren't. That applies to Loghain, Anora-even Alistair.

Anora spells it out pretty well when she asks for Alistair to be executed if she is made Queen and Alistair fails to take the throne. She mentions that rebellions can be raised in Alistair's name if he lives, whether or not he's involved in them. To secure the succession, the unsuccesful claimant has to die. If not, the monarch is taking his/her life in their hand.

In short(too late)-anyone who fails to take the throne can expect to die-criminal history or no.

I thought Anora only did that if Loghain lived?

You're probably right about that. I might have heard the speech in a hardened Alistair scenario as well, but I wouldn't put any money on it.It's been some time since I last did the Landsmeet.

[MagicalMaster]

Yeah, I just finished the game. If, for example, you let Alistair duel Loghain, Alistair immediately kills Loghain and if you choose Anora then she just asks Alistair to swear an oath to renounce his claims, which Alistair does.

Wound up sacrificing Loghain to the archdemon and freeing the mages.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 22 décembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[Corker]

MagicalMaster wrote...

XD  This is what's got you twisted around an axle?  Sounds like a dialogue that didn't check all possible flag combinations. 

A'ight, let's see...

That dialogue is located in arl230cr_eamon.dlg.  It's set to trigger only if the file DEN_CAPTURED_ANORA_BETRAYED _PC is set. 

• Anora says, "Indeed. We have been praying for your safe return, Warden" if the flag is DEN_CAPTURED_PC_CAPTURED
• If no flag is set, she's supposed to say, "Ser Cauthrien's death... is a waste, truly, but I suppose it could not be helped.

The DEN_CAPTURED _ANORA_BETRAYED_PC flag gets set in den211_cauthrien.dlg, if the PC chooses "She's right here. Tell her, Anora." as dialogue option.

• If you surrender and Alistair is with you, a flag is set DEN_CAPTURED_ALISTAIR_CAPTURED
• Whether Alistair is there or not, if you surrender, a flag is set to DEN_CAPTURED_PC_SURRENDERED
• If a fight starts (however it starts - the Warden can fight Cauthrien without outing Anora), a flag is set to DEN_CAPTURED_CAUTHRIEN_ATTACKS

The denpt_captured.plo file (records all plot flags related to the Captured! quest) also shows a flag for DEN_CAPTURED_CAUTHRIEN_DEFEATED, which I assume gets set once you beat Cauthrien and her men.  And DEN_CAPTURED_PC_CAPTURED, which... I don't see where it's set, but I assume it's if you fight and lose? 

I also can't find it, but I suspect that when PC_SURRENDERED is true, PC_CAPTURED is also made true.  Or else Wardens who surrender would never get the "praying" dialogue; they'd get the "Cauthrien's death" one, which makes no sense if they surrendered to Cauthrien.

By the way the dialogue is ordered in the Eamon dlg file, the first condition to be met fires. 

• So if you and Anora betray each other, she says the lines you got.
• If you surrendered or got captured without having betrayed her, she says the line about praying for you
• And the only way to get the line about Cauthrien's death is to fight Cauthrien without having betrayed Anora first, and without having gotten defeated by Cauthrien.
• Aaaand none of these actually check the flag to see if Cauthrien was defeated.

So I think you're just looking at a coding logic error. 

• Obviously, if the Warden and Anora betray each other, there needs to be follow-up to that, so the BETRAYED flag is checked for first.
• After that flag is checked, there is no further check to see if CAUTHRIEN_DEFEATED is true or not
• So this dialogue fires whether or not you beat Cauthrien.
• Apparently, if you lose, Cauthrien pursues Anora, who barely gives her the slip by the palace. And the dialogue makes perfect sense.
• And if you win, you get to spend several hours over several days demanding that the Internet explain to you how such a thing could have happened