69 réponses à ce sujet

[Corker]

Mike Smith wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...


Anora spells it out pretty well when she asks for Alistair to be executed if she is made Queen and Alistair fails to take the throne. She mentions that rebellions can be raised in Alistair's name if he lives, whether or not he's involved in them. To secure the succession, the unsuccesful claimant has to die. If not, the monarch is taking his/her life in their hand.

In short(too late)-anyone who fails to take the throne can expect to die-criminal history or no.

I thought Anora only did that if Loghain lived?

You're probably right about that. I might have heard the speech in a hardened Alistair scenario as well, but I wouldn't put any money on it.It's been some time since I last did the Landsmeet.

If Loghain is executed, there is no possibility to execute Alistair as well.  If they're both dead, Morrigan can be SOL for the Dark Ritual (if the Warden is female) and that never happens.

[Joy Divison]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

^ Wow. You just don't get it. You need to use your brain. She does NOT hang around when you fight Cauthrian. She does NOT have first-hand knowledge that she dead because as soon as your GW outs her, she does the same to you and ESCAPES, i.e., leaves the Arl's palace and gives the guard, (i.e. Cauthrian's guard) the SLIP. She's gone. I get it, the dialogue you're quoting isn't the best way that the writers could have conveyed what is 100% obvious to objective observers. BioWare should not have been lazy and recycled the lines Anora will use in the 90% of playthroughs people will take because winning the Cauthrian fight without exploits is very difficult.  But, geez, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 2 and 2 together here.

There are four possibilities here based on two binaries options (Cauthrien dies/get captured, reveal/don't reveal).

1. If you get captured and don't reveal, Anora just talks about how she was worried about you.

2.  If you kill Cauthrien and don't reveal, Anora talks about how Cauthrien's death was a waste (SO YES, SHE KNOWS CAUTHRIEN DIES).

3. If you get captured and reveal, Anora talks about how you revealed her and that she had to slip away from Cauthrien back at the palace.

4. If you kill Cauthrien and reveal...Anora talks about how you revealed her and that she had to slip away from Cauthrien back at the palace.  You can see that part of the dialogue in the screenshot I provided earlier.

One of these four does not make any sense and does not reflect reality.  It doesn't take Sherleck Holmes to figure out which (hint: it is VERY difficult for Cauthrien to return Anora to the palace if Cauthrien is dead).

Possibility 5: The game designers are not perfect and something is flagged incorrectly.  The exact details are somewhat contradictory but since the essence of the message is correct (Anora escapes) and most people can put 2 and 2 together, only folks with a subjective dislike toward Anora make a big stink over it.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

And Anora IS the decisive factor in keeping Loghain ALIVE. I know you can kill him if she is queen, that's not relevant because Loghain is DEAD in that scenario. I did not claim that Loghain always lives if Anora is on the throne. I said the only way Loghain can survive, Anora is always in some capacity on the throne. Not a coincidence considering Alistair's feelings on the matter.

Essentially she's a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition, then.

Finally, some amount of progress.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

You also keep saying you had no choice at the Arl of Denerim's estate. Yes you did. You just don't like the alternative. Which is *exactly* the same position that you put Anora in. In Anora's mind, she has NO CHOICE but to out you to Cauthrien. You only see things through your perspective.

I understand Anora thought she had no better choice at the time.  But I also think she was WRONG about that assessment and given how she comments Ser Cauthrien's death was a waste (exact words) if you don't reveal Anora, clearly she would prefer NOT to have Ser Cauthrien die.  So given that ANORA triggered Cauthrien to attack me when I was looking for a peaceful solution and Anora otherwise flat out says she DIDN'T want Cauthrien dead, one might expect to realize what she did was a MISTAKE.  Because it got Cauthrien killed and accomplished NOTHING good.

Anora did not trigger the attack on you.  You illegally broke into the Arl of Denerim's estate, murdered the Arl, released/bribed/murdered other prisoners, and are escorting the queen from protective custody which could easily be interpreted as kidnapping (which is precisely how Loghain and Cauthrien see it).  You are the state's most wanted criminals to boot.  You seem to be forgetting all those parts which are a pretty compelling reason for the cpatain of the guard to demand your immediate and unconditional surrender, no?  Anora's position is already very tenuous and weak - you do have to rescue her, remember - and you think a few words from her will change the mind of someone deemed "biggest lackey"?  I would have thrown DA:O into the garbage immediately if the writers thought that was even remotely plausible.  The GW is a traitor, a murderer, a vigillante, someone who has no problem breaking into palaces and butchering anyone who gets in her way.  Why the heck would Anora even consider attaching her fate to yours?

Cauthrien's death DID accomplish something: Anora and you escaped.

MagicalMaster : "That's nice.  Almost makes me want to kill you less."

Anora: "I could say the same to you.  First chance you get you revealed my presence to my father's biggest lackey!"

MagicalMaster : "Yes, but I had no choice.  Unless you WANTED me to slaughter Cauthrien and all of those guards for trying to do their jobs?"

Anora: "So let me get this straight.  You broke into the Arl's palace, murdered Howe, and planned on what would be legally interpretted as kidnapping the Queen and you didn't plan on what you might say if confronted by the guard?  Your entire "plan" let the queen - who is under house arrest and already suspected of borderline treason - to throw her lot in with traitors, murderers, and vigilantes to talk down the biggest lackey in Denerim?  Did the cat have your tongue ... or have you just forgotten how to use it considering that slaughter is the first thought to come to mind.  If you did somehow think i had any influence - well, there is a Landsmeet about to happen, Eamon is here with allies, and you have powerful allies of your own.  You could have surrendered.  We could have rescued you, you could have escaped yourself, the landsmeet might have seen reason, after all, you do think I'm some persuasive genius.  Warden, I see I overestimated you."


This was the conversation my GW had with Anora:

Joy: "So I couldn't help but noticed that threw me under the bus to Cauthrien"

Anora: "You revealed my presence to Cauthrien!"

Joy: "Yes, I know.  I'm a Grey Warden.  Anything to win.  I would have done the exact same thing in your shoes to ensure my escape.  We are going to get along perfectly.  Let's talk about the Landsmeet..."

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 décembre 2013 - 06:41 .

[MagicalMaster]

[quote]Corker wrote...

And if you win, you get to spend several hours over several days demanding that the Internet explain to you how such a thing could have happened[/quote]
Actually, I just wrote her off as a backstabbing psycho and didn't really care until I found out I couldn't make Alistair rule alone with Loghain alive.  You may note that OP mentioned the oddity with Anora but the thread only exploded once Loghain was brought in during the third post (my second post).

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Only folks with a subjective dislike toward Anora make a big stink over it.[/quote]
Strangely enough, the game sets you up to have a strong subjective dislike toward Anora right at that point.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Finally, some amount of progress.[/quote]
Not really.  As you may not recall, you said "Only by using Anora as leverage can you convince him to do otherwise."  Anora doesn't even really care if you kill Loghain initially (I mean, she does, but she'll still rule or marry Alistair (as long as Alistair doesn't kill Loghain)) and in fact you need Alistair to be hardened for this to even work.

You made it sound like Anora was the key factor...when in fact she's one of several factors and, in fact, is MUCH less important than Alistair being hardened.  You can have Anora rule alone with Loghain dead, alone with Loghain alive, marry Alistair with Loghain dead, marry Alistair with Loghain alive, or get imprisoned.  However, you can only have Loghain alive with Alistair ruling if Alistair is hardened and the marriage was planned.  So the marriage and hardening are the key factors, not Anora specifically.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Anora did not trigger the attack on you.[/quote]
Yes, she did.  I was trying to resolve the situation peacefully (which may not have been possible, but that's another issue) and Anora claimed I was kidnapping her, which prompted Cauthrien to attack.  I suppose you could argue that Cauthrien triggered the attack on me but Cauthrien's reaction was in response to Anora claiming she was being kidnapped.

Anora very firmly ended any possibility of ending it peacefully and triggered the attack.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

murdered the Arl[/quote]
Nope.  First, the Arl attacked me, not the other way around.  Obviously that's a bit of a grey area given the fact I broke into his home and all...but it was not a premeditated killing.  I had not planned to kill him, I wanted to free Anora and get out.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

The best you could argue is manslaughter but even then I could point out how I did not actually attack the Arl until he made me defend myself.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You seem to be forgetting all those parts which are a pretty compelling reason for the cpatain of the guard to demand your immediate and unconditional surrender, no?[/quote]
Never said I didn't understand why Cauthrien demanded by surrender.  But you might also note that after I revealed Anora *that I did not even have the chance to surrended, Cauthrien immediately attacked.*

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

The GW is a traitor, a murderer, a vigillante, someone who has no problem breaking into palaces and butchering anyone who gets in her way.  Why the heck would Anora even consider attaching her fate to yours?[/quote]
Are you talking about what Cauthrien thinks or what is actually true?  I mean, the GW is clearly not a traitor and I think Anora didn't think that either.  Also, the part about "someone who has no problem breaking into palaces and butchering anyone who gets in her way" is also not true.  I specifically avoided any bloodshed in Howe's place until the guards in the prison area attacked me.  I was trying not to kill anyone.

Which also brings up the question of how the hell Cauthrien showed up -- since the Arl had died about five minutes ago, no one on the main level knew anything was amiss, and no one had left the dungeon area except my group.  The whole thing makes no sense in the first place.

So given we're already in an implausible situation, yes, I hoped that Anora and I might be able to talk Cauthrien down -- just like you can apparently talk down Cauthrien alone later on.  Remind Cauthrien of her duty to her queen and not just Loghain...who is supposed to serve the queen's wishes.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You broke into the Arl's palace[/quote]
Was let in by her servant.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

murdered Howe[/quote]
Nope.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

planned on what would be legally interpretted as kidnapping the Queen[/quote]
Not if the queen said otherwise.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

and you didn't plan on what you might say if confronted by the guard?[/quote]
No reason for the guard to even be there and I did have several other ideas...but naturally the game doesn't let me say them.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Did the cat have your tongue ... or have you just forgotten how to use it considering that slaughter is the first thought to come to mind.[/quote]
Particularly ironic given how I avoided killing everything I could in Howe's household and how I didn't simply attack Cauthrien -- in other words, this is completely and utterly incorrect.

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

You could have surrendered.  We could have rescued you, you could have escaped yourself[/quote]
You'd have to be an idiot to surrender under those circumstances.

Also, you don't find it a tad odd how no one cares you escaped?  I mean, they can apparently hear of Howe's death within five minutes...somehow...and get Cauthrien plus a bunch of guards there but they don't hear of how you're in the alienage and try to stop you there or even simply notice you walking around the marketplace and talking to nobles in the tavern?  By all rights the guards should constantly being after you (unless they're like the LT in the market and like you -- but there's plenty of guards and the colonel in the Fort and such).

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MagicalMaster wrote...

You made it sound like Anora was the key factor...when in fact she's one of several factors and, in fact, is MUCH less important than Alistair being hardened.  You can have Anora rule alone with Loghain dead, alone with Loghain alive, marry Alistair with Loghain dead, marry Alistair with Loghain alive, or get imprisoned.  However, you can only have Loghain alive with Alistair ruling if Alistair is hardened and the marriage was planned.  So the marriage and hardening are the key factors, not Anora specifically.

I've mostly gone off this conversation, but this I can't let lie. You think that Anora is less important with regards to Alistair sparing Loghain than Alistair being hardened, when neglecting either is sufficient to torpedo the plan?

[Joy Divison]

Ser Cauthrien: "Warden, I am placing you under arrest for the MURDER of Rendon Howe and his men at arms. Surrender and you may be shown mercy."

MagicalMaster: *refuses to surrender*

Ser Cauthrien: "Bring them down, LOGHAIN wants the Warden dead or alive."

MagicalMaster: "It's all Anora's fault!"

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Corker]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Anora did not trigger the attack on you.

Yes, she did.  I was trying to resolve the situation peacefully (which may not have been possible, but that's another issue) and Anora claimed I was kidnapping her, which prompted Cauthrien to attack.  I suppose you could argue that Cauthrien triggered the attack on me but Cauthrien's reaction was in response to Anora claiming she was being kidnapped.

Anora very firmly ended any possibility of ending it peacefully and triggered the attack.

Can we still make references to broken records, or has the zeitgeist found a new technology for that metaphor?

[Angrywolves]

Cathrien was going to attack regardless if you don't surrender.
shrugs.

[MagicalMaster]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MagicalMaster wrote...

So the marriage and hardening are the key factors, not Anora specifically.

I've mostly gone off this conversation, but this I can't let lie. You think that Anora is less important with regards to Alistair sparing Loghain than Alistair being hardened, when neglecting either is sufficient to torpedo the plan?

Read the last sentence again (I've kept it in the quote above).  Anora doesn't matter.  Anora's marriage to Alistair matters.

Joy Divison wrote...

Ser Cauthrien: "Warden, I am placing you under arrest for the MURDER of Rendon Howe and his men at arms. Surrender and you may be shown mercy."

MagicalMaster: *refuses to surrender*

Ser Cauthrien: "Bring them down, LOGHAIN wants the Warden dead or alive."

MagicalMaster: "It's all Anora's fault!" [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

While your sarcarsm is delightful...

1, I didn't refuse to surrender.  Cauthrien attacked me after Anora claimed I was kidnapping her.  I wasn't given the option to surrender after Anora claimed I was kidnapping her

2, are you ignoring my final paragraph in the previous post?  The whole thing is implausible.  From Cauthrien mysteriously showing up to knowing stuff that should be impossible to know to everyone else ignoring me to even Cauthrien ignoring me if I did surrender or was captured.  The whole sequence made no sense from the start.

Corker wrote...

Can we still make references to broken records, or has the zeitgeist found a new technology for that metaphor?

Cauthrien: I've magically showed up, now surrender.

Me: Whoa, whoa, I was rescuing Anora

Cauthrien: Nonsense, I don't believe you

Me: Here she is right here.

Anora: They totally kidnapped me Cauthrien!

Cauthrien: UNACCEPTABLE!  KILL THEM!

And you don't think Anora triggered Cauthrien to attack me?

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 26 décembre 2013 - 04:13 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MagicalMaster wrote...

So the marriage and hardening are the key factors, not Anora specifically.

I've mostly gone off this conversation, but this I can't let lie. You think that Anora is less important with regards to Alistair sparing Loghain than Alistair being hardened, when neglecting either is sufficient to torpedo the plan?

Read the last sentence again (I've kept it in the quote above).  Anora doesn't matter.  Anora's marriage to Alistair matters.

Yes, it is indeed the marriage that induces Alistair to spare Loghain. The problem is that this marriage has to be to Anora, since he doesn't spare Loghain if he marries the Cousland and there are no other marriage options open to him. Thus, Anora is essential to the plan you had.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 décembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Only folks with a subjective dislike toward Anora make a big stink over it.[/quote]
Strangely enough, the game sets you up to have a strong subjective dislike toward Anora right at that point.[/quote]

Only to those who have an obstinate lack of perspective. I find myself morbidly interested in what you thought of Isolde (Arl Eamon's wife).

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

murdered the Arl[/quote]
Nope.  First, the Arl attacked me, not the other way around.  Obviously that's a bit of a grey area given the fact I broke into his home and all...but it was not a premeditated killing.  I had not planned to kill him, I wanted to free Anora and get out.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.[/quote]

Yes...I'm sure a court of law will let someone go based on "I broke into his home and killed everyone who stood in my way, but totally didn't premeditate."

[quote]The best you could argue is manslaughter but even then I could point out how I did not actually attack the Arl until he made me defend myself.[/quote]

The the Arl doesn't have any right at all to use lethal force in defending his household from armed invaders?

This whole threads seems to be about you clinging to some illusion that your every move was more righteous than everyone else here says it was.

[Jeffonl1]

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

Only folks with a subjective dislike toward Anora make a big stink over it.[/quote]
Strangely enough, the game sets you up to have a strong subjective dislike toward Anora right at that point.[/quote]

Only to those who have an obstinate lack of perspective. I find myself morbidly interested in what you thought of Isolde (Arl Eamon's wife).

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

murdered the Arl[/quote]
Nope.  First, the Arl attacked me, not the other way around.  Obviously that's a bit of a grey area given the fact I broke into his home and all...but it was not a premeditated killing.  I had not planned to kill him, I wanted to free Anora and get out.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.[/quote]

Yes...I'm sure a court of law will let someone go based on "I broke into his home and killed everyone who stood in my way, but totally didn't premeditate."


[quote]The best you could argue is manslaughter but even then I could point out how I did not actually attack the Arl until he made me defend myself.[/quote]

The the Arl doesn't have any right at all to use lethal force in defending his household from armed invaders?

This whole threads seems to be about you clinging to some illusion that your every move was more righteous than everyone else here says it was.
[/quote]
"
I think you are after the more legal definition of murder: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"
If you want to get pedantic, it is the "unlawful" detail that the charge of murder hinges upon:  I would say that the death of Arl was lawful:  the entry into Howes home was sanctioned by the Arl of Redcliff and apparently invited by the Queen;  therefore any consequences of the entry were lawful.  I also think that if you played the Noble, your authority to enter Howes home is clear.

[ejoslin]

It's been a very long time since I've played the game, but doesn't Anora make it VERY clear that her father is insane and that she cannot be caught leaving the estate?

So revealing her to Loghain's right hand woman would be incredibly stupid; she already said that that is the one thing that she cannot do. Had she felt she'd be able to leave, she wouldn't have had to dress up as a guard.

Also, you're kind of being stupid, when trying to overthrow Loghain, to show your hand (that you have his daughter).

[Corker]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Corker wrote...

Can we still make references to broken records, or has the zeitgeist found a new technology for that metaphor?

Cauthrien: I've magically showed up, now surrender.

Me: Whoa, whoa, I was rescuing Anora

Cauthrien: Nonsense, I don't believe you

Me: Here she is right here.

Anora: They totally kidnapped me Cauthrien!

Cauthrien: UNACCEPTABLE!  KILL THEM!

And you don't think Anora triggered Cauthrien to attack me?

In a strictly computational sense, the flag is set when you pick the dialogue option " "She's right here. Tell her, Anora." That's a trigger, and you trip it.  The rest is her reacting to your dialogue.

What everyone is saying, and saying, and saying, is that prior to that scene, there's this one:

(Door opens, Anora emerges dressed as a guard)

Anora: My thanks.

Warden: Aren't you a little short for a guard OR Why are you dressed like that? OR Let's go.

Depending on which you pick, and your race, Anora says a few different things.  In ALL CASES, though, she finishes with:

Anora: If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed.  And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may also have me killed.

She is hiding from her own allies, because she thinks they will ignore what she wants to do and take her back to the palace anyway -

- which Cauthrien totally tries to do, per that one line of dialogue we've been beating to death, so it's not like Anora's smoking crack here -

- and she thinks her father might still kill her and try to pin it on the Wardens/Eamon to sabotage their attempt to overthrow him at the Landsmeet. 

She tells you all this so that you won't say, "HEY LOOK, I GOT THE QUEEN RIGHT HERE!"

Which you then proceed to do.

So if there was a trigger, it had big yellow warning signs and caution tape all around it, and you ignored all that and went ahead to do what you thought was best.

And SURPRISE, when you pushed that trigger, BAD THINGS HAPPENED.

Because the NPC, who just told you she was afraid that what you just did would get her killed, took the only action available to her that she thought would get her not-killed. 

[Wulfram]

The thing is, we've been caught. It's utterly ridiculous to think she's getting out of there unrecognised. I mean, look, she just walks in with the Warden and crew

even if the magic guard uniform stops her from being recognised initially - and to be fair, their magic doesn't stop with Anora, like when a Dalish Warden can pass without comment - they're not just going to let her go, are they? So prompting her to explain things seems like a no-brainer - there's simply nothing to lose here.

But the game apparently thinks it's perfectly reasonably for her to be able to slip out of there, so I guess if you're thinking that way then her actions make sense.

Though I'd also note that the escape from Fort Drakon is very silly, and that surrendering or losing the fight should really mean game over - if the Warden doesn't think they'll win the fight, which is a fair guess, then trying to get Anora to talk their way out of things is still probably the most sensible move.

Modifié par Wulfram, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:00 .

[Angrywolves]

More likely Loghain would have showed up right after the warden surrendered and ordered the warden's execution.

[Joy Divison]

Wulfram wrote...

The thing is, we've been caught. It's utterly ridiculous to think she's getting out of there unrecognised. I mean, look, she just walks in with the Warden and crew

even if the magic guard uniform stops her from being recognised initially - and to be fair, their magic doesn't stop with Anora, like when a Dalish Warden can pass without comment - they're not just going to let her go, are they?

Anora isn't recognized unless the Warden reveals her presence.  Cauthrien and the other guards are oblivious to her.  With the captain of the guard and her escort fighting the Warden, who is Loghain's public enemy #1, how is it unreasonable that an unrecognized Anora wouldn't be able to slip out from the commotion?

So prompting her to explain things seems like a no-brainer - there's simply nothing to lose here.

  On the contrary, you have much to lose.  She makes it clear to you that's a bad idea.  What part of her dialogue even hints that Loghain's bigest lackey would listen to her?  Even if you get past Cauthrien, why should Anora trust the Warden?  If the GW has no intention of surrendering, you should just attack Cauthrien.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[Wulfram]

Joy Divison wrote...

Anora isn't recognized unless the Warden reveals her presence.  Cauthrien and the other guards are oblivious to her.  With the captain of the guard and her escort fighting the Warden, who is Loghain's public enemy #1, how is it unreasonable that an unrecognized Anora wouldn't be able to slip out from the commotion?

Because there's a horde of guards on the way out, and she's clearly a cohort of Loghain's public enemy #1, so stopping her is a high priority.  All not identifying her does is mean that the logical way to stop her is probably to shoot her with a crossbow

On the contrary, you have much to lose.  She makes it clear to you that's a bad idea.  What part of her dialogue even hints that Loghain's bigest lackey would listen to her?

She makes it clear that it would be silly to go up to the enemy and say "Hey, here's the Queen and we're sneaking her out", but the applicability of that advice to a situation when the jig is obviously up and she's about to be killed or captured seems stretched.

The fact that Cauthrien denies her presence in the palace suggests that revealing it might be profitable, and it might shake the loyalties of the guards accompanying her even if not Cauthrien herself.

Even if you get past Cauthrien, why should Anora trust the Warden?  If the GW has no intention of surrendering, you should just attack Cauthrien.

Anora should trust the Warden because they've rescued her at considerable life and limb, and taken the most pragmatic course to get her out safely, rather than endangering her life in a potentially needless last stand or effectively handing her over to her enemies by surrendering.  And because if she wants her crazy father, who she supposedly fears will kill her, to be dealt with then she needs the Warden.

[Joy Divison]

Wulfram wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Anora isn't recognized unless the Warden reveals her presence.  Cauthrien and the other guards are oblivious to her.  With the captain of the guard and her escort fighting the Warden, who is Loghain's public enemy #1, how is it unreasonable that an unrecognized Anora wouldn't be able to slip out from the commotion?

Because there's a horde of guards on the way out, and she's clearly a cohort of Loghain's public enemy #1, so stopping her is a high priority.  All not identifying her does is mean that the logical way to stop her is probably to shoot her with a crossbow

She's a guard, presumably held hostage.  Why would her fellow guards shoot her with a crossbow?  How is that logical?

Wulfram wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
On the contrary, you have much to lose.  She makes it clear to you that's a bad idea.  What part of her dialogue even hints that Loghain's bigest lackey would listen to her?

She makes it clear that it would be silly to go up to the enemy and say "Hey, here's the Queen and we're sneaking her out", but the applicability of that advice to a situation when the jig is obviously up and she's about to be killed or captured seems stretched.

That's not what Anora thinks.  She makes it clear that she can't be discovered, whether it's a random guard or Cauthrien.  Which is why she acts the way she does if the Warden outs her.  And I'd do the same thing.  Because it would give me the opportunity to escape in the commotion.  If the Warden has no intentions of surrendering, he should attack Cauthrien.

The fact that Cauthrien denies her presence in the palace suggests that revealing it might be profitable, and it might shake the loyalties of the guards accompanying her even if not Cauthrien herself.

But the fact is that the loyalties of the guards were not skaken.

Wulfram wrote...

Anora should trust the Warden because they've rescued her at considerable life and limb, and taken the most pragmatic course to get her out safely, rather than endangering her life in a potentially needless last stand or effectively handing her over to her enemies by surrendering.  And because if she wants her crazy father, who she supposedly fears will kill her, to be dealt with then she needs the Warden.

No.  If the Warden surrenders, Anora escapes and winds up in Eamon's estate because Cauthrien and the guards do not know Anora is accompnaying the Grey Warden.  All your arguments presume they do.  They don't.  Her life in more endangered by revealing her presence than if the GW fights Cauthrien - she tells you this - because she does not get involved in the combat (or hang around).  It's the GW who endagers his own life fighting Cauthrien.

As for her gratitude of the GW taking a dangerous course to rescue her and how much she needs the GW, remember she can still speak out against the GW at the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 30 décembre 2013 - 05:24 .

[Wulfram]

[quote]Joy Divison wrote...

She's a guard, presumably held hostage.  Why would her fellow guards shoot her with a crossbow?  How is that logical? [/quote]

She's obviously not being held hostage, she's not being threatened, no one is even looking at her.  She's clearly an ally of the Warden

[quote]That's not what Anora thinks.  She makes it clear that she can't be discovered, whether it's a random guard or Cauthrien.  Which is why she acts the way she does if the Warden outs her.  And I'd do the same thing.  Because it would give me the opportunity to escape in the commotion.  If the Warden has no intentions of surrendering, he should attack Cauthrien.[/quote]

Chancing her life on a ludicrous unlikelyhood is silly.  And anyway, she needs the Warden to bring down her father, so having the Warden toss away their life away like that doesn't serve her ends.

[quote]

But the fact is that the loyalties of the guards were not skaken.[/quote]

Because Anora decides to spin a tale to get them to attack the Warden, rather than doing something that would actually make use of her royal status.  We do in fact know from later events that Cauthrien's loyalty to Loghain was shaky, even in the absence of a royal command.

[qiuote]No.  If the Warden surrenders, Anora escapes and winds up in Eamon's estate because Cauthrien and the guards do not know Anora is accompnaying the Grey Warden.  All your arguments presume they do.  They don't.  Her life in more endangered by revealing her presence than if the GW fights Cauthrien - she tells you this - because she does not get involved in the combat (or hang around).  It's the GW who endagers his own life fighting Cauthrien.[/quote]

The guards know that Anora is accompanying the Grey Warden, because she just walks in with them.  They don't know she's Anora, but that's pretty irrelevent really - it just leaves her as an accompice in the murder of the Arl of Denerim, and still not someone to just let waltz out because she's not the PC.

My arguments aren't based on what happens, but based on what the people involved can reasonably expect.  The Warden can't be expected to base their decisions on Cauthrien having a sudden fit of insanity and letting their cohorts go.  Nor can they be based on them being taken to a prison that is less secure than an email account with PASSWORD for a password.

[Joy Divison]

^^ Well if you aren't going to base your arguments on what happens, it is pointless to even discuss the matter.

The fact of the matter is Cauthrien does *not* know Anora is accompanying the Wardens unless the GW reveals her presence ... indeed when Anora is first mentioned to Cauthrien, the Captain of the Guard initially disbelieves Anora is even present.

You're ignoring what actually happens in the game in favor of how you think it should have been written.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 31 décembre 2013 - 03:50 .