86 réponses à ce sujet

[Basher of Glory]

Xaenn wrote...

I'm pretty sure the whole topic of "lack of professionalism" is irrelevant.

#1 It's a video game.
#2 Object of the game is to give you choices to get more immersed into the game itself, if you don't want to, don't. Putting in complaints or dislikes about something as such is pointless.
#3 Ashley actually makes a comment on removing your rank and taking your spot as commander or ranking officer, although I believe it to be a joke, but at least there is mention of some serious action towards lack-there-of professionalism.
#4 There is a lot of reasons why people fight, hope, love, survival, so on, people need a reason to keep fighting, to keep morale up, to remember why they are doing what they are doing.

If you were facing annihilation, and on the way home you J-walked, would you report yourself? lols. The thought of that sounds ridiculous.

In your case I guess I was fairly unable to provide an understanding to the points I've brought up.

I'm aware that this is a game and I also know about immersions and dramaturgy.

Actually I try to roleplay a high ranking officer, who goes straight along the paragon line and therefore I brought this topic up.

Neither did I complain nor express any "dislikes".

I agree to your #4, though.

For your final phrase about "reporting myself" I just can say, that I would not have the need to do so, because I kept my sane distance from my team members at all times


@ Sialater

Yes, Shepard stole a warship. Yes, Shepard did not act by the book. And exactly that makes Shepard a demigod of professionalism.

In every modern army officers are trained to act against all regulations when they are CERTAIN, that in a given specific case these regulations would lead to a disaster.
In our case Shepard KNEW about the real threat, while his superiors demanded "evidence". (S)he stayed professional while all the others (except Anderson perhaps) bowed out of responsibility by hiding behind buerocratic concepts.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:20 .

[AgentOfAtlas]

If humanity wants to play with the rest of the galaxy, it has to be willing to follow some of the conventions and guidelines. And ones clear rule is: Spectres are above the law and regular rules and regulations.
 
Edit: Also, as the most famous space-faring human (the first human Spectre!), which cares a lot of "awe" with it judging by Jenkins, Shepard is covered by a few centuries of cultural bias on the part of humanity towards their space hero being a player. Ever since that mid-20th century show with Captain Kirk.

Modifié par AgentOfAtlas, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:29 .

[DarthCaine]

And punching reporters is SO professional

[harvestboygoobus]

I'll agree that the romance is probably unprofessional. I'm training to become an officer in the Army myself, and, of course, it would not only be unprofessional, but entirely illegal for me to fraternize with a subordinate officer or NCO that is directly in my chain of command, like Ashley or Kaidan.



That being said, however, I don't mind the romance so much in the game. Officers aren't immune to emotions, and in such a stressful and dangerous situation, it's only human nature for Shepard to seek out something or someone he can lean on. I'd rather him getting close to one of his soldiers than turning into a raging drunk, if you ask me!



Plus, I think that, at the end, no one really expected to survive. The sex scene was kind of a spur of the moment, "Why not?" kind of moment, in my opinion. Not professional or "right" by military standards, but, in the face of death, might as well enjoy your last moments alive, right?

[ReubenLiew]

Because Shepard is in reality just Captain Kirk, and this is the Starship Enterprise.

[Sialater]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Xaenn wrote...

I'm pretty sure the whole topic of "lack of professionalism" is irrelevant.

#1 It's a video game.
#2 Object of the game is to give you choices to get more immersed into the game itself, if you don't want to, don't. Putting in complaints or dislikes about something as such is pointless.
#3 Ashley actually makes a comment on removing your rank and taking your spot as commander or ranking officer, although I believe it to be a joke, but at least there is mention of some serious action towards lack-there-of professionalism.
#4 There is a lot of reasons why people fight, hope, love, survival, so on, people need a reason to keep fighting, to keep morale up, to remember why they are doing what they are doing.

If you were facing annihilation, and on the way home you J-walked, would you report yourself? lols. The thought of that sounds ridiculous.

In your case I guess I was fairly unable to provide an understanding to the points I've brought up.

I'm aware that this is a game and I also know about immersions and dramaturgy.

Actually I try to roleplay a high ranking officer, who goes straight along the paragon line and therefore I brought this topic up.

Neither did I complain nor express any "dislikes".

I agree to your #4, though.

For your final phrase about "reporting myself" I just can say, that I would not have the need to do so, because I kept my sane distance from my team members at all times


@ Sialater

Yes, Shepard stole a warship. Yes, Shepard did not act by the book. And exactly that makes Shepard a demigod of professionalism.

In every modern army officers are trained to act against all regulations when they are CERTAIN, that in a given specific case these regulations would lead to a disaster.
In our case Shepard KNEW about the real threat, while his superiors demanded "evidence". (S)he stayed professional while all the others (except Anderson perhaps) bowed out of responsibility by hiding behind buerocratic concepts.

All right.  It is unprofessional.  But it's not illegal.  However, very little Shepard did was strictly "professional."  Professionalism is the first to fall by the wayside when you're trying to save the galaxy.  It wasn't "professional" to nuke Virmire, either, but it was expedient.

[DPSSOC]

As a Commander in the Alliance Military yes it's highly unprofessional to have affairs with those under your command. As a Spectre it doesn't matter. The Council regularly implies, and it's clear given the nature of the Spectres, that they don't care how you get the job done as long as you do. They're only interested in the end result. So you could go about your mission while fraternizing with every man, woman, and sink on your ship and they wouldn't care so long as you completed the mission.



Now since your Spectre rank supercedes your Alliance rank (you're technically not part of their chain of command) it doesn't matter what is/isn't professional for an Alliance Commander on your part.

[PaladinXR]

I believe (after viewing a video about a femshep turning kaiden into a d-bag) that Kaiden actually mentions the ramifications of fraternizing, but says it's no worse than the mutiny charges that would be levied on them once the deed is done (they don't actually do ANYTHING until after you flee the citadel).

[Marioninja1]

Turian Council Member: "You would get this gold medal, but you fraternized with Ashley."

Shepard: "Screw proffesionalism! I. SAVED. THE. GALAXY!!!!"

Turian Council Member: "This just shows how humans aren't ready to be on the council."

Shepard: "I hate you so much."

[AngryFrozenWater]

Unprofessional or not... If you love someone there is not much you can do about that.

[daytona123]

First off he technically he isn't part of the Alliance military anymore, if he wanted to he could say screw you and only do missions the Council offers him(they don't even order specters to do mission they just give them the option to). He doesn't have to follow alliance rules and at the moment they do the deed they are disobeying orders from everyone.



Secondly, Ashley/Kaiden don't have to follow his command at this point and if it turned out that the council had been right and Saren was just playing an attack on the citadel with the geth, stealing an alliance ship that could have helped add to the Citadels defense would have likely gotten them all tried for treason. If they were truly being professional they wouldn't have let Shepard take the ship and everyone would be dead.



Finally, they seriously don't know if they are going to make it back and typically in those situations, people tend to act on their feelings so they don;t have any regrets if they die.

[Basher of Glory]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Unprofessional or not... If you love someone there is not much you can do about that.

Of course we could:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

"The Stoics considered destructive emotions to be the result of errors in judgment, and that a sage, or person of "moral and intellectual perfection," would not undergo such emotions"

I'm aware that this might be hard to swallow for a "fun society" 

[Iona]

Marioninja1 wrote...

Turian Council Member: "You would get this gold medal, but you fraternized with Ashley."
Shepard: "Screw proffesionalism! I. SAVED. THE. GALAXY!!!!"
Turian Council Member: "This just shows how humans aren't ready to be on the council."
Shepard: "I hate you so much."

Best part of this thread.

[Enoch VG]

You say "unprofessional," I say "creepy and exploitative."



The former may be mitigated by circumstances, but the latter is not.

[Recon101]

Yeah, I thought about it. Saving Ashley just so I could sleep with her felt wrong. Sacrificing her felt even worse. Smart, tough and heavy armor never looked so good. Once the bomb was set I could rescue her and the Salarians at the platform and feel justified. If you're really moral don't seal the deal. Some playthroughs I nixed her early because of prejudice and religion.



Romance was a small part of the experience overall.



For a renegade who cares?. Did the Jolly Roger have a chain of command taboo? I read 13% of female crew on U.S.S. Eisenhower got pregnant. On ships deployed during Desert Storm 1,143 female sailors the same. Youth, close quarters and fear of death are a potent mix.

[AsheraII]

Combining (sexual) relations with work being unprofessional is a figment of current society's imagination. It's the HOW you combine the two that's either professional or unprofessional.

[Basher of Glory]

AsheraII wrote...

Combining (sexual) relations with work being unprofessional is a figment of current society's imagination. It's the HOW you combine the two that's either professional or unprofessional.

I agree. If everybody would be adept in the art of the "HOW", we would not need such regulations

[Xaenn]

Baher of Glory wrote...

In your case I guess I was fairly unable to provide an understanding to the points I've brought up.

I'm aware that this is a game and I also know about immersions and dramaturgy.

Actually I try to roleplay a high ranking officer, who goes straight along the paragon line and therefore I brought this topic up.

Neither did I complain nor express any "dislikes".

I agree to your #4, though.

For your final phrase about "reporting myself" I just can say, that I would not have the need to do so, because I kept my sane distance from my team members at all times


@ Sialater

Yes, Shepard stole a warship. Yes, Shepard did not act by the book. And exactly that makes Shepard a demigod of professionalism.

In every modern army officers are trained to act against all regulations when they are CERTAIN, that in a given specific case these regulations would lead to a disaster.
In our case Shepard KNEW about the real threat, while his superiors demanded "evidence". (S)he stayed professional while all the others (except Anderson perhaps) bowed out of responsibility by hiding behind buerocratic concepts.

I didn't mean any of it as in insult if taken that way.  You can choose to play the game anyway you want, why their are choices, but I think the most realisitic way to play the game is to play how you would play it and how you would respond.  Choosing to play it a certain way, although I imagine could be fun, but would take some of the immerision away from the game.  Which is where the game(s) kinda fail, although DA:O slightly improved on it.

While making most of the benifits of the game through Paragon/Renegade status increase with how far you are between the 5? points.  Making being partial to both really lacking substance meaning your forced into a role you have to 'act' out be someone you're not making choices you think someone would do in that position.  Where the immersion really begins is when you can actually believe you are him, allowing you to make choices way you want to get the job done.

Bioware is very good at being subtle with this in the games because of the intense citimatics, allowing you time to forget or think less on the choices.

I guess you can say it's a penalty you pay for not choosing a direct side, but why would you? 

Anywho, I like my #4 response as well

Although rules don't generally apply to protagonist, especially since he's a spectre.  I could see how it was unprofessional

Modifié par Xaenn, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:58 .

[Xaenn]

Marioninja1 wrote...

Turian Council Member: "You would get this gold medal, but you fraternized with Ashley."
Shepard: "Screw proffesionalism! I. SAVED. THE. GALAXY!!!!"
Turian Council Member: "This just shows how humans aren't ready to be on the council."
Shepard: "I hate you so much."

I had to laugh at this, I could honestly see that happening with how arrogant the council is, although I could see their point.  Good stuff

"I hate you so much" part was quite funny xD

Modifié par Xaenn, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:59 .

[Exile Isan]

I'd just like to toss in there that, at least with Kaidan and female Shepard, that they're "romance" is pretty much put on hold after your last conversation with him pre-lockdown. He even says she's a hard woman to walk away from, which means to me that they're putting it aside. It's only after Udina and the Council try to screw them over that anything happens (there almost kiss) and then later after they steal the ship (sex scene).

Modifié par Exile Isan, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .

[Basher of Glory]

@ Xaenn and others:

I'm not insulted, I just discern regretfully that I could not mediate my intentions with that thread, at least not to all.



My goal was an abstract discussion about a leader and what (s)he may do or not.



Although many answered to this correctly (e.g. "it is certainly not professional, but...") some others seem to insist on telling me how to play the game (e.g. "if you don't like romances then skip it, it's optional").



Even as a spectre Shepard is in charge. The question is not if (s)he must obey the rules or rather make rules him-/herself, the question is, if a leader is ethically authorized to "romance" someone of his / her crew and thus possibly elevate the life of the love-interest over his / her duties.

The crew did not follow Shepard just because they like him / her, they are also convinced to do it for the right cause.



And in my opinion especially now a good and (I say it again) professional leader should be more paragon than ever.

[Zaxares]

AsheraII wrote...

Combining (sexual) relations with work being unprofessional is a figment of current society's imagination. It's the HOW you combine the two that's either professional or unprofessional.

Well said.

To be honest, my only real complaint about a lot of these Bioware romances is that they frequently lead up to a sex scene near the end of the game, and that's the end of it (except perhaps a little post-game exposition during the closing credits). The romance is over and there's no further dialogue or events that further the romantic story.

That's only doing the job half-right, in my opinion. There's a lot more to love and romance than just getting into each other's pants. I really loved the romances in Baldur's Gate 2 because they carried on after the big sex scene; you got to discuss your lover's feelings and hopes and dreams for the future together. Still, given that ME is planned to be a trilogy, there's hope yet for the ME romances!

Modifié par Zaxares, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:29 .

[sakay]

Isn't half the point of playing these sorts of games to do things you would never/could never do in real life? You can make your alter-ego whatever you want in BW games. That is the beauty of them. I can be a ****ty jedi, a frigid dragon-slaying elf, or a commander fraternizing with a subordinate. There are no real-life consequences. There are some potential consequences in the games; and no, they aren't necessarily realistic. Then again, neither is me speeding across the galaxy slaying genocidal aliens, wielding a lightsaber or any other pointy sword-like device, intimidating the masses, becoming a royalty or slaying a dragon.



It's far more professional that what can be found on the news most nights...

[Andorfiend]

Zaxares wrote...

Well said.

To be honest, my only real complaint about a lot of these Bioware romances is that they frequently lead up to a sex scene near the end of the game, and that's the end of it (except perhaps a little post-game exposition during the closing credits). The romance is over and there's no further dialogue or events that further the romantic story.

That's only doing the job half-right, in my opinion. There's a lot more to love and romance than just getting into each other's pants. I really loved the romances in Baldur's Gate 2 because they carried on after the big sex scene; you got to discuss your lover's feelings and hopes and dreams for the future together. Still, given that ME is planned to be a trilogy, there's hope yet for the ME romances!

Lois BuJold (my favoite author right now) says that a romance story isn't really over until the birth of the first child.

AsheraII wrote...

Combining (sexual) relations with work being unprofessional is a figment of current society's imagination. It's the HOW you combine the two that's either professional or unprofessional.

Where does 'during a conference call' fall on that spectrum?

[Xaenn]

If you're looking for an abstract view on the subject you need to lose the concept of professionalism. Why would it be unprofessional to enter a romance on a mission as to save the galaxy? What makes it unprofessional? Who exactly thought up the concept that is it unprofessional to do so?



Maybe more important things at stake, but taking time to be human I would say is equally as important, such is why you're trying to save the universe to begin with.