1814 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The Yo Dawg poster was always wrong because it misrepresented the task and purpose of the Reapers... much like you.

QFT

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Except excalating to the point of wiping out organic life goes against the Reaper mandate to preserve life.  Or at least "suitable" life. 

This is one potential weakness to the Reapers.  Much like Samara's justicar Code.  It can potentially be turned  against them

Except preserving life isn't the mandate- resolving the synthetic-organic conflict is.

It's also a mandate with unlimited scope of 'at all costs'- the Reapers are demonstratably permitted to destroy specific forms of life in the name of saving it in the long term, wipe out civilizations and genocide species regardless of whether they're compatible or intended for Reaperhood, and then risk and lose Reaperized-species collectives (Reapers) in the pursuit of enforcing the Cycle.

This is trying to enforce an arbitrary restriction which the Reapers have already left behind- the goal of 'preserving life' is about life in general, not any life or species in particular.

[essarr71]

Mcfly616 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...


Well here's my reasoning. So, if the Reapers appear through a Relay in the Widow system, that information would be sent to the Presidium Tower which would proceed to close the Wards. Now the Citadel is in it's fortified position, since the Wards (as the Codex suggests) are made up of the same materials the Mass Relays are made out of, the Reapers can't just cut through through them quickly or at all, plus the Citadel doesn't seem to be damaged above Earth (isn't that photo a concept piece and thus not canon?). Even if they actually did do so, it probably couldn't have been done in the course of a few hours.

Which seems to suggest that the Reapers either towed it (as silly and implossbile as that sounds) or the someone was on the inside to control the station to reopen the Wards and hand over control to the Reapers. The only people I can think of who could do so are indoctrinated personel, namely TIM, or the Catalyst. However, the Reapers could have easily used either one to gain control of the station much earlier and royally ruin the entire Organic war effort, which begs the question, "Why didn't they do that earlier?"

Couldn't have been the Catalyst. Probably TIM. Considering he went to the Citadel and informed the Reapers of Shepard's plans. I imagine he succeeded precisely where Saren failed. Symmetry. I like it.

I like it too.  And it's a shame we couldn't have seen it.  Hell, all they needed to do was cut to TIM in the council chambers while he's talking to Shep at the end of the mission.  Something to give a little bit of an idea that things were getting worse or happening at all.  We got a "oh they took it and brought it to Earth" all of a sudden. 

But going into it means showing more, I suppose.  Seeing TIM alone in the council chambers would raise as many questions as how he magically got under it later on, and that might have broken up the scene.  Seeing the Reapers arrive would have demanded a bit of flare.  "Oh?  You've taken my base?  Well, I've taken yours."  Symmetry, indeed.  All we get is teleportation.

[DeinonSlayer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except preserving life isn't the mandate- resolving the synthetic-organic conflict is.

It's also a mandate with unlimited scope of 'at all costs'- the Reapers are demonstratably permitted to destroy specific forms of life in the name of saving it in the long term, wipe out civilizations and genocide species regardless of whether they're compatible or intended for Reaperhood, and then risk and lose Reaperized-species collectives (Reapers) in the pursuit of enforcing the Cycle.

This is trying to enforce an arbitrary restriction which the Reapers have already left behind- the goal of 'preserving life' is about life in general, not any life or species in particular.

Gotta wonder what the deal was with that world in ME2, described as being home to a bronze-age avian society which was orbitally bombarded out of existence millions of years ago... doesn't sound like the Reapers' MO if they're really all about spacefaring technological species capable of creating artificial intelligence.

I smell a last minute a**pull.

[Mcfly616]

essarr71 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...


Well here's my reasoning. So, if the Reapers appear through a Relay in the Widow system, that information would be sent to the Presidium Tower which would proceed to close the Wards. Now the Citadel is in it's fortified position, since the Wards (as the Codex suggests) are made up of the same materials the Mass Relays are made out of, the Reapers can't just cut through through them quickly or at all, plus the Citadel doesn't seem to be damaged above Earth (isn't that photo a concept piece and thus not canon?). Even if they actually did do so, it probably couldn't have been done in the course of a few hours.

Which seems to suggest that the Reapers either towed it (as silly and implossbile as that sounds) or the someone was on the inside to control the station to reopen the Wards and hand over control to the Reapers. The only people I can think of who could do so are indoctrinated personel, namely TIM, or the Catalyst. However, the Reapers could have easily used either one to gain control of the station much earlier and royally ruin the entire Organic war effort, which begs the question, "Why didn't they do that earlier?"

Couldn't have been the Catalyst. Probably TIM. Considering he went to the Citadel and informed the Reapers of Shepard's plans. I imagine he succeeded precisely where Saren failed. Symmetry. I like it.

I like it too.  And it's a shame we couldn't have seen it.  Hell, all they needed to do was cut to TIM in the council chambers while he's talking to Shep at the end of the mission.  Something to give a little bit of an idea that things were getting worse or happening at all.  We got a "oh they took it and brought it to Earth" all of a sudden. 

But going into it means showing more, I suppose.  Seeing TIM alone in the council chambers would raise as many questions as how he magically got under it later on, and that might have broken up the scene.  Seeing the Reapers arrive would have demanded a bit of flare.  "Oh?  You've taken my base?  Well, I've taken yours."  Symmetry, indeed.  All we get is teleportation.

things can always be better. Hell, I would've loved if there was a 10 second scene of my Shepard standing up out of the rubble and looking out over the wreckage of the Citadel and the curve of Earths horizon.....victorious. But I don't "need" it.

As a seasoned vet of all sci fi mediums, I've come to expect certain traits to be ever-present. Some things will inevitably be left unexplained. Some things will be left up to interpretation. Some things are left up to the imagination. And no matter what, there will always be something that is unable to be scientifically explained with present day real world terms. (I.e Space Magic)

Sci fi often asks us to draw our own conclusions. It rarely spoon-feeds. Most of the quality work within the genre isn't for everyone. In fact, I would wager that most of the "classics" of sci fi literature are more or less either loved or hated. It's very polarizing. Much like ME3.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

Except excalating to the point of wiping out organic life goes against the Reaper mandate to preserve life.  Or at least "suitable" life. 

This is one potential weakness to the Reapers.  Much like Samara's justicar Code.  It can potentially be turned  against them

Except preserving life isn't the mandate- resolving the synthetic-organic conflict is.

It's also a mandate with unlimited scope of 'at all costs'- the Reapers are demonstratably permitted to destroy specific forms of life in the name of saving it in the long term, wipe out civilizations and genocide species regardless of whether they're compatible or intended for Reaperhood, and then risk and lose Reaperized-species collectives (Reapers) in the pursuit of enforcing the Cycle.

This is trying to enforce an arbitrary restriction which the Reapers have already left behind- the goal of 'preserving life' is about life in general, not any life or species in particular.

If simply resolving the problem "at all costs" was the entire scope, they would just glass every world capable of bearing organic life and be done with it.  That would "resolve" things right there.

No, they are tasked with preserving organic life "at all costs"

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Except excalating to the point of wiping out organic life goes against the Reaper mandate to preserve life.  Or at least "suitable" life. 

This is one potential weakness to the Reapers.  Much like Samara's justicar Code.  It can potentially be turned  against them

Nobody said anything about wiping out "organic life." Just a handful of troublesome species. Wouldn't even have to completely exterminate them. Bombing out the industrialized planets would do; colonies that can't build their own starships can be harvested at leisure.

If Reapers actually had a prohibition against killing rather than harvesting, how could they fight space battles? You're surely not proposing that they take a combatant/noncombatant distinction seriously, so how would the rule read?

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

] things can always be better. Hell, I would've loved if there was a 10 second scene of my Shepard standing up out of the rubble and looking out over the wreckage of the Citadel and the curve of Earths horizon.....victorious. But I don't "need" it.

You don't

Many others do

But Bioware thinks everyone's character has to be Walter White.  That everyone's character deserves the same fate regardless of what has come before.

As a seasoned vet of all sci fi mediums, I've come to expect certain traits to be ever-present. Some things will inevitably be left unexplained. Some things will be left up to interpretation. Some things are left up to the imagination. And no matter what, there will always be something that is unable to be scientifically explained with present day real world terms. (I.e Space Magic)

Sci fi often asks us to draw our own conclusions. It rarely spoon-feeds. Most of the quality work within the genre isn't for everyone. In fact, I would wager that most of the "classics" of sci fi literature are more or less either loved or hated. It's very polarizing. Much like ME3.

I'm no stranger to sf or scifi in movies, tv or literature myself.  This sounds likes excuse-making.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

You don't

Many others do

But Bioware thinks everyone's character has to be Walter White.  That everyone's character deserves the same fate regardless of what has come before.
.

That's silly. If Bio was doing that, they'd have shown Shepard die.

[crimzontearz]

Conversely, if they were not doing that they would have had no issue showing a reunion scene/confirmation Shepard does not die under the rubble (insert comicon troll here)

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...


Nobody said anything about wiping out "organic life." Just a handful of troublesome species. Wouldn't even have to completely exterminate them. Bombing out the industrialized planets would do; colonies that can't build their own starships can be harvested at leisure.

If Reapers actually had a prohibition against killing rather than harvesting, how could they fight space battles? You're surely not proposing that they take a combatant/noncombatant distinction seriously, so how would the rule read?

If they're so invincible then there are no "troublesome species"  They just crush everyone under their boot and be done with it "When a fire burns, is it conflict" and all that

I'm saying the Reapers care nothing for individuals, but will take an effort to preserve a species as a whole (which appears to be what the Sovereign-class Reapers are for)  If a Reaper thinks a species is worthy of "preservation" they will not wipe them out.  Well, except they'll turn them into goo, but they consider that "ascension" or somesuch.  I think Reapers would distinguish between combatants and noncombatants.  Noncombatants are easier to take alive

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

That's silly. If Bio was doing that, they'd have shown Shepard die.

Silly.  But true:

http://www.complex.c...er-white-moment

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I don't think think the Reapers can generate enough of a mass effect field to lessen the mass of the Citadel and the thing is massive. Plus, there is a mass limit to what Relays can transfer.

There's a limit to how accurate the transit is with large masses, but there's no stated limit to the total transfer. The Migrant Fleet takes time to pass through a relay, but that could just as easily be a traffic issue; the Codex isn't specific on the point.

As for mass, drag is negligible, so any amount of thrust can get the Citadel to the relay if you take the time. The hard part would be getting from the Charon relay to Earth orbit. I agree that they seem to have done this very quickly.

Anyway, saying that you don't think the Reapers have a capability isn't a productive argument. Bio just says "yes, they do," and the argument vaporizes. 

You're right, I am assuming a lot of this, but the problem as I see it is that the Citadel moving to Earth is a big part of the plot for which the mechanisms are never explained. In some stories this wouldn't bother me but Mass Effect is a story where technology has certain rules and limits, thus when something as massive as the Citadel gets moved for convenience and no explanation is given it really takes me out of the events of the story.

That's why I'm trying to think of ways the Reapers got it there and since the game has no explantion I have to assume a method, but nothing in the Codex really has anything concrete about Reaper towing capabilites.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That's silly. If Bio was doing that, they'd have shown Shepard die.

Silly.  But true:

http://www.complex.c...er-white-moment

Yep. All the endings were virtually identical except for the color of the explosions on your TV. Mac confirmed it: You died, the relays exploded, and the Normandy crashed.

Then here's an interesting question. If say they'd made Javik part of the original game and not DLC, would players have accepted Javik dying in the end as the hero if it allowed Shepard to live and be with his/her waifu? He was the last of his race, and had nothing really to live for except exacting vengeance for his people. Or would they have felt cheated?

[Cainhurst Crow]

I would rather see what this new story has to offer before I declare disappointment.

Personally, I do not care what they learned as long as they make a better game then mass effect 3 was. Simple as that. 

I want a good game, not a "This is an apology to all our fans for mass effect 3" dreck fest filled with callbacks, back peddling, and nothing interesting to contribute unless you were dissapointed with mass effect 3.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 21 décembre 2013 - 01:21 .

[PMC65]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That's silly. If Bio was doing that, they'd have shown Shepard die.

Silly.  But true:

http://www.complex.c...er-white-moment

Yep. All the endings were virtually identical except for the color of the explosions on your TV. Mac confirmed it: You died, the relays exploded, and the Normandy crashed.

Then here's an interesting question. If say they'd made Javik part of the original game and not DLC, would players have accepted Javik dying in the end as the hero if it allowed Shepard to live and be with his/her waifu? He was the last of his race, and had nothing really to live for except exacting vengeance for his people. Or would they have felt cheated?

I would have let Javik be my Shepard's Loghain.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

That's silly. If Bio was doing that, they'd have shown Shepard die.

Silly.  But true:

http://www.complex.c...er-white-moment

Silly comparison, but that doesn't suggest that they'll go the same route with another character, nor that Walters looked at the two as direct mirrors of one another. You're taking statements a little far again.

And there's only no variation if you completely disregard the implications of Shepard's choice, which received more emphasis in the EC. The Crucible fires in all endings, though.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 21 décembre 2013 - 01:59 .

[wolfhowwl]

crimzontearz wrote...

Conversely, if they were not doing that they would have had no issue showing a reunion scene/confirmation Shepard does not die under the rubble (insert comicon troll here)

Comicon troll? What did Bioware do there?

[dreamgazer]

wolfhowwl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Conversely, if they were not doing that they would have had no issue showing a reunion scene/confirmation Shepard does not die under the rubble (insert comicon troll here)

Comicon troll? What did Bioware do there?

A dev very obviously joked around about the breath scene being a shot of Shepard's dying breath.

Certain folks of the BSN, who hadn't seen/heard it in person, latched onto it as some malicious and intended thing.

[spirosz]

It was a devilish act, dream. It hurt me soul. Cause I ain't able to think of anything positive within the ME universe.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

wolfhowwl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Conversely, if they were not doing that they would have had no issue showing a reunion scene/confirmation Shepard does not die under the rubble (insert comicon troll here)

Comicon troll? What did Bioware do there?

Writer: We felt the endings were really bleak so for the players who really worked hard and gathered all the war assets we put the breath scene in as a glimmer of hope.

Chris Hepler: But it could have been his last breath.

Chris Priestly: Yep.

Crowd: Boooo Hisss booo Hisss.

[dreamgazer]

The crowd actually started laughing right after the dramatic gasps.

Right as Gamble joked about debris falling on Shep's head.

[crimzontearz]

A dev very obviously joked around about the breath scene being a shot of Shepard's dying breath.

Certain folks of the BSN, who hadn't seen/heard it in person, latched onto it as some malicious and intended thing.

A "just joking" would have helped. I saw the video, the delivery did not imply a joke.

Secondly, if that was the case WHY continue the charade? Why not say "it was a joke, official word of god is that he lives"

No? Too hard? Form of punishment for those who did not get/appreciate the joke?

[crimzontearz]

The crowd actually started laughing right after the dramatic gasps.

Right as Gamble joked about debris falling on Shep's head.

too bad it was Elper who said "it could be his last breath", again, the does not explain why they kept running with it, why the delivery of the scene is so awful or why not give word of god on the situation like they did for other issues