1814 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

I said wide consensus of fanbase not your wet dream.

Do you seriously not believe that Shepard's survival was a key factor in the fan uproar?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

I said wide consensus of fanbase not your wet dream.

Do you seriously not believe that Shepard's survival was a key factor in the fan uproar?

I don't think it's really possible to identify a single key factor among an outraged mob. And this is speaking as someone who was part of Retake.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Wide variety of endings and wide variety of endings for Shepard are two very different points. It's best not to give in to sensationalism when making a point.

They are different.  But they are also linked.

Can you say with a straight face that if they made it so at 3100 EMS, SHepard could (somehow) survive any color ending, that EC wouldn't have been near-universally accepted?

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

I said wide consensus of fanbase not your wet dream.

Do you seriously not believe that Shepard's survival was a key factor in the fan uproar?

Some people didnť care, some people were satisfied with breathing scene, some wanted more.

It was problem, but not major problem for everyone. In fact I saw more complains about Reapers goals and "Catalyst deus ex machina" then Shepard death.

Your major problem isn't automatically major problem of whole fanbase, even when it is widely spread. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Wide variety of endings and wide variety of endings for Shepard are two very different points. It's best not to give in to sensationalism when making a point.

They are different.  But they are also linked.

Can you say with a straight face that if they made it so at 3100 EMS, SHepard could (somehow) survive any color ending, that EC wouldn't have been near-universally accepted?

Quite easily, yeah.

Because unlike you, I don't place an overemphasis on the happy ending aspect of Retake which ignored all the other hogwash. There are a plethora of reviled stories out there with the protagonist surviving to the very end, against all odds. They are still considered widely to be crap, contradicting the notion that the most desired factor in any story is a protagonist's survival.

Specifically with regard to Retake, in the weeks following ME3's release, you couldn't refresh the page without any thread being off the front amidst constant different criticisms. People were pissed about the Catalyst's sudden existence. They were pissed about the lack of diversity in the three colored lights ending. They were pissed about the pointless use of the Collector Base. And the Rachni. And the illogical nature of the Catalyst. And Priority Earth as a whole. And TIM. And the lack of a boss battles. And yes, Shepard's near universal death. And requirements for multiplayer to achieve the best possible endings. And even a few over Javik.

Contrary to how you'd like to remember it, Retake was not the "We want Shepard alive" club. It was an effort at collective bargaining using a substantial segment of fans who all hated the ending for a wide variety of reasons.

Me? I would have gladly taken a Shepard survives ending if Bioware had also tossed in a halfway decent explanation for the Catalyst.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 décembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[crimzontearz]

The fact that Shepard can survive?

no the fact that the audience had no say in his fate and as such we should not **** and supinely accept Mac's mighty art and be glad for the opportunity

[KaiserShep]

There's only so many times the word art can be used around here until it loses all meaning.

[ImaginaryMatter]

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

When there's a lot of bad reactions in the media, people always assume it represents a majority of people.

I didn't play ME3 initially because of all the negative vibes and the comments people had about the ending. Stupid me for being an idiot sheep and believing it. I picked the game up earlier this year and in a month played 3 characters through from start to end and loved it.

Now I can imagine that especially the original ending could've been confusing but when I see all the ridiculous misinterpretations that had absolutely no foundation, I am glad I finally gave myself the chance to have my own experience and get my own opinion.

So go ahead and crucify me for it if you must but I do like ME3 and even though I am sad that Shepard's story is over, that is something that happens. Doesn't stop Game of Thrones from being popular either.

So between the overestimates on how many people actually hated ME3's ending and the down right preposterous misinterpretations about them people made and still make today, I can only say that BW seem to have misjudged their demographic and leave it at that.

What misinterpretations? I'm not trying to crucify you, I certainly wished I like the last part of ME3, I'm just trying to find out where you are coming from. Given how poorly handled the Catalyst revelation was I would say a large fraction of interpretations are valid because of the clumps of nonsense, contrivances, ambiguities, etc.

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

Some people didnť care, some people were satisfied with breathing scene, some wanted more.

It was problem, but not major problem for everyone. In fact I saw more complains about Reapers goals and "Catalyst deus ex machina" then Shepard death.

And it was a major problem for some.  More than some, really.  

Your major problem isn't automatically major problem of whole fanbase, even when it is widely spread. 

And you trying to margianlize a position doesn't automatically make it go away.

And for the record, no Shepard's survival isn't my "major problem".  I simply acknowledge it was a major problem for a lot of people.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Quite easily, yeah.

Because unlike you, I don't place an overemphasis on the happy ending aspect of Retake which ignored all the other hogwash. There are a plethora of reviled stories out there with the protagonist surviving to the very end, against all odds. They are still considered widely to be crap, contradicting the notion that the most desired factor in any story is a protagonist's survival.

Specifically with regard to Retake, in the weeks following ME3's release, you couldn't refresh the page without any thread being off the front amidst constant different criticisms. People were pissed about the Catalyst's sudden existence. They were pissed about the lack of diversity in the three colored lights ending. They were pissed about the pointless use of the Collector Base. And the Rachni. And the illogical nature of the Catalyst. And Priority Earth as a whole. And TIM. And the lack of a boss battles. And yes, Shepard's near universal death. And requirements for multiplayer to achieve the best possible endings. And even a few over Javik.

Contrary to how you'd like to remember it, Retake was not the "We want Shepard alive" club. It was an effort at collective bargaining using a substantial segment of fans who all hated the ending for a wide variety of reasons.

Me? I would have gladly taken a Shepard survives ending if Bioware had also tossed in a halfway decent explanation for the Catalyst.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Retake movement, senator.  Stop trying to do some guilt by association thing.

I am well aware of the plethora of complaints about the ending.  It deserved every single one of them.  But allowing Shepard to live would in all probability have pulled the fangs from the outcry.  Yes the endings still would have sucked, but the gurmbling would have been a lot less.

[CaIIisto]

JamesFaith wrote...
Some people didnť care, some people were satisfied with breathing scene, some wanted more.

In re to the 'breath' scene, personally I'd rather they either went further or ditched it altogether.

As it stands, the scene is simply frustrating. There's little ambiguity around the other endings, so why that one?

[dreamgazer]

KaiserShep wrote...

Is the Walter White thing really being taken seriously?

A little too seriously, and a little too literally for effect.

So, basically, it's as expected. 

[CaIIisto]

StreetMagic wrote...

Because if it was any better, more people would pick it.

But I don't think they want that. They want the choices to appear equal, so they have to diminish an attractive outcome to make them all work. Personally, I think Synthesis and Control could stand on their own, but I don't think Bioware believes that themselves.

But this supposes that the player knows that a Destroy choice would yield Shepard's survival.

Given that this is the final game of Shepard's trilogy, and that the outcome of whether Shepard lives or dies is largely irrelevant, then why do BW even care? Either the next game has to pick up on the ramifications of ME3's ending, in which case they're going to have to canonize an option anyway , or it doesn't, in which case again, why does BW even care what players choose?

[KaiserShep]

That's what I suspect regarding the breath scene. In the original ending, Control and Synthesis are identical, save for the color of the wave. It leaves behind nothing but reapers leaving for no reason to do something we don't know with a scorched galaxy in their wake. If the breath scene actually had a proper extraction of Shepard or him/her simply stepping out of the rubble victorious, the other endings would be a complete and total ******.

On the other hand, Shepard's survival was kind of out of left field for me. There was a bit of a hint in the fact that the catalyst doesn't specifically mention Shep's death, but it's an easy hint to miss. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

I am well aware of the plethora of complaints about the ending.  It deserved every single one of them.  But allowing Shepard to live would in all probability have pulled the fangs from the outcry.  Yes the endings still would have sucked, but the gurmbling would have been a lot less.

And I'd love to see your basis for this, other than your own personal outrage. Spiderman 3 is generally regarded as crap, despite Peter Parker making it to the end alive, as an example. This seems more like an appeal to some majority, which you don't have access to.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 décembre 2013 - 02:06 .

[CaIIisto]

KaiserShep wrote...

That's what I suspect regarding the breath scene. In the original ending, Control and Synthesis are identical, save for the color of the wave. It leaves behind nothing but reapers leaving for no reason to do something we don't know with a scorched galaxy in their wake. If the breath scene actually had a proper extraction of Shepard or him/her simply stepping out of the rubble victorious, the other endings would be a complete and total ******.

On the other hand, Shepard's survival was kind of out of left field for me. There was a bit of a hint in the fact that the catalyst doesn't specifically mention Shep's death, but it's an easy hint to miss. 

Isn't the Destroy ending by far and away the most popular ending anyway? Even in the original cut?

In terms of people picking the 'good' ending - I don't really see that many more people picking Destroy if they know that Shepard survives, than have picked it anyway, knowing that they'll get the 'breath' scene. If Shepard surviving is THAT important to them, and is THAT influential in their choice, then as things currently stand they'd pick that anyway as it's the only outcome where Shepard doesn't definitely die. That being the case, high EMS yielding a Shepard survival outcome would likely change very little in terms of numbers.

Another point - if the choice at the end comes down to whether or not Shepard survives then the choices haven't been sufficiently incentivized to prevent players from doing that. IMO.

[dreamgazer]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

I am well aware of the plethora of complaints about the ending.  It deserved every single one of them.  But allowing Shepard to live would in all probability have pulled the fangs from the outcry.  Yes the endings still would have sucked, but the gurmbling would have been a lot less.

And I'd love to see your basis for this, other than your own personal outrage. Spiderman 3 is generally regarded as crap, despite Peter Parker making it to the end alive, as an example. This seems more like an appeal to some majority, which you don't have access to.

Gonna have to agree with iakus on this particular issue: the ending would have probably been more easily accepted by the general public had Shepard been clearly seen surviving in the destroy ending (just look at ME1's ending).  The interpretation and ambiguity doesn't personally bother me, but it's really easy to see where it'd help others who need more overt satisfaction. 

[CaIIisto]

StreetMagic wrote...

Just to add, by equalizing them, I think they just want people to focus on the principles involved in each choice, rather than ideal outcomes. They want you to focus on what you believe, rather than how to "win another game".

That's what I assume at least. I can respect that, if that's the case. Still sucks though, from an emotional standpoint. I don't want to just satisfy my logic or belief system, but my emotions as well.

I can buy the 'equalization' point, in terms of a design aspiration, but it would not work in reality IMO.

People influenced that strongly in their choice by whether or not Shepard survives will still pick the one outcome where Shepard does not DEFINITELY die over the ones where he/she definitely DOES.

[Br3admax]

By far that has been most of the criticism of the ending, the ambiguity at the end of a trilogy. I'm also fine with it. ME3 has much bigger problems than that, and I do not consider it a problem to begin with. However, many here disagree with me.

[spirosz]

Yep. It is really easy to headcannon Shepard surviving (or not), but for those who want the clarification, I understand the need to that visual acceptance - it's one thing to see him or her "breathing" with that expanding of the chest scene, but they could of added the yelling of soldiers saying "Look over there, it's Shepard!" or have Jack for example - have her noticing the tattoo that she gave Shepard.

There is a lot Bioware could of done with that scene, but there is also a lot they could of done with the Reapers in Synthesis and Control as well, but we're talking about the Shepard (lolololol).

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dreamgazer wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

I am well aware of the plethora of complaints about the ending.  It deserved every single one of them.  But allowing Shepard to live would in all probability have pulled the fangs from the outcry.  Yes the endings still would have sucked, but the gurmbling would have been a lot less.

And I'd love to see your basis for this, other than your own personal outrage. Spiderman 3 is generally regarded as crap, despite Peter Parker making it to the end alive, as an example. This seems more like an appeal to some majority, which you don't have access to.

Gonna have to agree with iakus on this particular issue: the ending would have probably been more easily accepted by the general public had Shepard been clearly seen surviving in the destroy ending (just look at ME1's ending).  The interpretation and ambiguity doesn't personally bother me, but it's really easy to see where it'd help others who need more overt satisfaction. 

ME1's ending doesn't really work as a counter-point. Aside from lacking the hype of a concluding portion of a trilogy (most who disliked ME1's ending are more likely to set it aside), it's also missing the host of other issues which people have targeted with regard to ME3, such as the lack of boss fights, lack of ending variety, and a general lack of cohesion or logic. 

Again, if people simply wanted a happy ending, Retake would have had no problems functioning as the "Happy Ending Movement". What Bioware actually had to do when designing the Extended Cut was attempt to extrapolate from a sea of diverse criticisms what people were really after. And as per the Spiderman 3 or even Dragon Age 2, the survival of the chief protagonist does not itself move perception from "that was a terrible movie" to "that was amazing".

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 décembre 2013 - 02:25 .