1814 réponses à ce sujet

[FlamingBoy]

AlanC9 wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...
I'll certainly be avoiding anything Mac Walters going forwards - it takes a very special kind of 'talent' to ruin Mass Effect for so many people after all.

You sure it's all Mac? Drew K.'s Dark Energy ending built up to the same kind of choice, IIRC.

Yeah its all mac, he had top billing hence he gets all the rewards if the game was a literary success and all the flak if it was a failure.

It just simply irrelevant of what drew karpy would have done, because he simply never had the chance to do it.

I can't figure out if you're agreeing with Fandango's post or making fun of it.

speculate:)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

@iakus: Beats me. You're one of the guys who freaked out, so you have a better understanding of the phenomenon than I do. Bio's never struck me as being committed to the kind of narrative freedom that you say you want for your PC, so I don't know why you guys never collided before. 

To some extent, I can get this desire for Shepard to survive, even if I don't share it.

I just don't understand the argument of how ME3 removes narrative freedom and takes away choice, because it denies players one particular thing they may have wanted. Bioware's been denying choice since ME1 forcing us to be the dogs of the Council for most of the game, with ME2 forcing us to cooperate with Cerberus (almost without question), and with Arrival forcing Shepard to commit atrocities.

I can see ME3 not providing a choice some fans may have wanted. I don't see ME3 as a whole of providing less freedom than any of the other games.

[MegaSovereign]

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

But then we have people praising them for writing the most complex story ever told, it's like which one should they take seriously?  Lol. 

[vandalDX]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

This, I believe, would be a tragedy for fans of BioWare.  Moral ambiguity goes hand-in-hand with great storytelling, or so the history of language suggests.

[MegaSovereign]

spirosz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

But then we have people praising them for writing the most complex story ever told, it's like which one should they take seriously?  Lol. 

I really doubt they're going to take people like Seival seriously. 

Their immediate response to the ending debacle was the EC, which added context and made the outcomes less gloomy but left a lot of the narrative issues intact. And then you still have people complaining about how "tragic/depressing" the endings are.

So yea...not much hope for a better writing intiative. Not when there isn't as much demand for it.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 31 décembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[MegaSovereign]

Fandango9641 wrote...

That people continue to take issue with the writing of Mass Effect (and its conclusion in particular) - and for completely different reasons - is evidence enough that people would have liked Bioware to do a better job in that regard.

Yea, maybe I'm being pessimistic. 

Even if Bioware don't always get things right, the fact that they listen to feedback is evident in their post-launch DLC. Every ME3 DLC (with the exception of Day-One-Javik) has been influenced by feedback one way or another. 

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

Given Dragon Age: Origins ending played with morally ambiguous themes much better than ME3, I'll have to disagree.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

@iakus: Beats me. You're one of the guys who freaked out, so you have a better understanding of the phenomenon than I do. Bio's never struck me as being committed to the kind of narrative freedom that you say you want for your PC, so I don't know why you guys never collided before. 

Perhaps because Bioware's endings never forced the protagonist to be a complete monster before?

[Mr.House]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

@iakus: Beats me. You're one of the guys who freaked out, so you have a better understanding of the phenomenon than I do. Bio's never struck me as being committed to the kind of narrative freedom that you say you want for your PC, so I don't know why you guys never collided before. 

Perhaps because Bioware's endings never forced the protagonist to be a complete monster before?

Being a "monster" is hardly the endings issue, even one of them.

[JamesFaith]

J. Reezy wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

@iakus: Beats me. You're one of the guys who freaked out, so you have a better understanding of the phenomenon than I do. Bio's never struck me as being committed to the kind of narrative freedom that you say you want for your PC, so I don't know why you guys never collided before. 

Perhaps because Bioware's endings never forced the protagonist to be a complete monster before?

Being a "monster" is hardly the endings issue, even one of them.

I never even got that impression from them. Is that what they are to some people? Monstrous? That's a weird complaint.

Prepare for Iakus favourite lecture about "genocide and killing allies", "dictatorship" and "DNA rape".

[dreamgazer]

About as monstrous as Mike Wazowski.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

Given Dragon Age: Origins ending played with morally ambiguous themes much better than ME3, I'll have to disagree.

Disagree with what?

ME3 came out after DA:O. ME3's ending resulted in a huge backlash. It's pretty reasonable to assume that they're going to play it safe.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 31 décembre 2013 - 04:38 .

[dreamgazer]

Now we just need an Old God Baby and some spare darkspawn blood to go around.

[CynicalShep]

I had that gif with a bunch of guys hitting a dead horse with sticks somewhere...

[MegaSovereign]

CynicalShep wrote...

I had that gif with a bunch of guys hitting a dead horse with sticks somewhere...

BSN desperately needs a new horse.

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I had that gif with a bunch of guys hitting a dead horse with sticks somewhere...

BSN desperately needs a new horse.

THAT'S WHY THEY PUT MOUNTS IN INQUISITION. 

[wolfhowwl]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

If that is the conclusion Bioware reached it is probably the correct one given some of the fanbase and their writing ability as well.

While the endings were certainly quite the flop on so many levels, would an excellently written but dark ending have been that well received either?

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 décembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[CynicalShep]

dreamgazer wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

I had that gif with a bunch of guys hitting a dead horse with sticks somewhere...

BSN desperately needs a new horse.

THAT'S WHY THEY PUT MOUNTS IN INQUISITION. 

I'm sure DAI will have something worthy 

[MegaSovereign]

wolfhowwl wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

If that is the conclusion they reached it is probably the correct one given some of fanbase.

While the endings were certainly quite the flop on so many levels, would an excellently written but dark ending have been that well received either?

It can be happy, dark, or bittersweet. Excellent writing is harder to pull off than simply setting the tone of the story.
 
However, avoiding less-than-innocent subjects/themes will make it harder to pull off "excellent writing."

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 31 décembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote...
I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

I'd worry about this too, but so far I haven't heard anything from Bio that says this is the lesson they learned. So U'm pretty optimistic so far.

[ruggly]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I want them to understand that the ending was poorly written, but I'm afraid what they got out of debacle was that they should never play with morally ambiguous themes.

Oh well. I'm the minority of the vocal minority so I should have seen this coming.

I don't mind that they play with morally ambiguous themes, but don't just throw them in there willy nilly. 

[Mr.House]

There's nothing wrong with morally ambiguous themes being dark, tragic ect. The issue is it's quality and that's where ME3 fell apart.