1814 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

......yeah why do I feel this is an Alamo moment

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

[crimzontearz]

Never said otherwise but to some people they matter more than others. Especially if their desire to believe Shepard is alive is undermined by said issues

I mean yeah I should be the last one to talk but I am awful with holding grudges

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Subjectivity is not in contention

[spirosz]

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO EVERYTHING ME3 RELATED?

[dreamgazer]

FlamingBoy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Subjectivity is not in contention

Sure it is.

One can go back to the first game in the series and have an axe to grind over suspension of disbelief with certain elements. 

[dreamgazer]

spirosz wrote...

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO EVERYTHING ME3 RELATED?

SO HARD TO WHAT, SPEERIO?

[spirosz]

[dreamgazer]

spirosz wrote...

(shrug)

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Subjectivity is not in contention

Sure it is.

One can go back to the first game in the series and have an axe to grind over suspension of disbelief with certain elements. 

conversation cannot shutdown simply because we have different opinions, An opinion, if it wants to be taken seriously, should be defended. Anyone can have an opinion but if that opinion consists of bioware are masters of the story and any plot element cannot be questioned and any explanation not given has an explanation that bioware has chosen not give us. That their is the problem, such an opinion is madness and should be called out on. Your and my opinion our are own but once we place it in the public spectrum they are free game.

This subjectivity train argument which the internet has so readily jumped on only serves to drag out conversations that are already difficult.

Conclusion:
Supension of disbelief despite is a subjectiveness is an important conversation/argument to have regardless of different opinions on it.

[dreamgazer]

Meh. It's easy to reduce just about anything to "poor presentation" and say it kills suspension of disbelief. Once you start wielding it as some ironclad complaint, as if there's a concrete point when it happens, it becomes a problem.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Is "subjective" the new buzzword for "your opinion is invalid"?

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Is "subjective" the new buzzword for "your opinion is invalid"?

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand to some that this is a suspension of disbelief issue induced by poor presentation?

Why is it so hard to understand that suspension of disbelief issues are entirely subjective? 

Is "subjective" the new buzzword for "your opinion is invalid"?

No, but it is the word for saying that your opinion in no reflects what anybody beyond yourself thinks.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's objectively bad (at least not for the reasons you think it is).

That said, yes, your opinion is invalid. That's the nature of opinions. Yours are only as good as other people let them be.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If we're going to talk about suspension of disbelieve shouldn't we go back to earlier parts of the series?

[FlamingBoy]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

If we're going to talk about suspension of disbelieve shouldn't we go back to earlier parts of the series?

such as?
What damaged your belief more, than say the crucible?

[dreamgazer]

Mentioned earlier in the thread: it'd be extremely easy to let the Prothean cipher and the Thorian dismantle your suspension of disbelief.

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

Dreamgazer, why don't you list a few science fiction stories for me that have no such content 'littered' within them? I'm wondering to myself what exactly it is you consider 'metaphysical' and 'plot-moving.'

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

Dreamgazer, why don't you list a few science fiction stories for me that have no such content 'littered' within them? I'm wondering to myself what exactly it is you consider 'metaphysical' and 'plot-moving.'

Starship Troopers
The Odyssey Series
Contact
The Dune series
The War of the Worlds
The Ender Series
The Foundation Series
1984
A Fire Upon The Deep
The Forever War
The Night's Dawn
Spin
Ringworld
I, Robot

[ImaginaryMatter]

FlamingBoy wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

If we're going to talk about suspension of disbelieve shouldn't we go back to earlier parts of the series?

such as?
What damaged your belief more, than say the crucible?

I don't know if I can quantitatively list them and I always considered suspension as a summation game, where one could tolerate discrepancies until some personal threshold was met. And I can even tolerate some of them for the sake of drama and pacing.

Having said that the things that bothered me the most occurred in ME2, like:

The fact that Shepard's death and resurrection hardly fazed anyone, including Shepard himself. It seems like the writers did it because they needed a reason for the changed leveling system and a time skip, rather than any kind of character arc. Again, Shepard's actual death wasn't what bothered me, but rather how the game world reacted to it.

People recognizing Shepard with a face mask or a changed appearance. Also how they instantly accepted Shepard as Shepard without any sort of doubt or background check. I know an actual realistic process would be boring and tedious, and I like pacing and all that jazz, but couldn't there be some sort of recognition of the problem?

The Council's and Alliance's ridiculous apathy to anything that went on after the Sovereign attack. I mean the biggest thing ever happened and these guys hardly did a thing. As an aside, wouldn't it have made a nice arc of sorts to have the Council grow more competent and inclusive as a result of the Reaper conflict?

Cerberus becoming a fundamentally different organization from ME1 to ME2. I found the handwaves to be rather flimsy. I liked the role Cerberus played, but I think it should have been handled by another organization in the game -- like the Shadow Broker. Or even just creating another organization for that purpose. TIM is awesome though.

Shepard's over importance in the story. I know he's the hero and main character and all but he's just some guy who got randomly mind probed by an ancient alien artifact. He's not Space Jesus.

The Arrival DLC.

These things ruined the Reaper plot for me, granted I think ME3's sins were even worse; but the story was already broken by that point. I still like ME2, a lot (like a lot, a lot), but it's because of the characters, the world they were in, and their arcs; and the feeling of awesomeness that I feel whenever I complete the Suicide Mission.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 01 janvier 2014 - 06:43 .

[David7204]

Those seems like rather silly reasons. For one, half of them really don't seem to have all that much connection to the Reapers in the first place, so I'm struggling to see how they 'ruined' the 'Reaper plot' for you.

Secondly, the fact that you put characters not reacting to Shepard's new face on the list with the rest of them makes me wonder how you play video games at all if such a petty complaint causes the plot to 'break down' for you. Do you hate games when characters regenerate health after being shot? Or maybe because characters repeat dialogue when you speak to them.

Modifié par David7204, 01 janvier 2014 - 06:55 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

No it doesn't bother me when characters regenerate health after being shot.

As I said these are things that personally bothered me, in a discussion about personal opinions. To you my issue with Shepard's face may be petty, but that's just you. So, please, stop reacting so negatively when people disagree with you over something so small. It kinda makes you seem like the petty one.

[SiriusXI]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

If we're going to talk about suspension of disbelieve shouldn't we go back to earlier parts of the series?

such as?
What damaged your belief more, than say the crucible?

I don't know if I can quantitatively list them and I always considered suspension as a summation game, where one could tolerate discrepancies until some personal threshold was met. And I can even tolerate some of them for the sake of drama and pacing.

Having said that the things that bothered me the most occurred in ME2, like:

The fact that Shepard's death and resurrection hardly fazed anyone, including Shepard himself. It seems like the writers did it because they needed a reason for the changed leveling system and a time skip, rather than any kind of character arc. Again, Shepard's actual death wasn't what bothered me, but rather how the game world reacted to it.

People recognizing Shepard with a face mask or a changed appearance. Also how they instantly accepted Shepard as Shepard without any sort of doubt or background check. I know an actual realistic process would be boring and tedious, and I like pacing and all that jazz, but couldn't there be some sort of recognition of the problem?

The Council's and Alliance's ridiculous apathy to anything that went on after the Sovereign attack. I mean the biggest thing ever happened and these guys hardly did a thing. As an aside, wouldn't it have made a nice arc of sorts to have the Council grow more competent and inclusive as a result of the Reaper conflict?

Cerberus becoming a fundamentally different organization from ME1 to ME2. I found the handwaves to be rather flimsy. I liked the role Cerberus played, but I think it should have been handled by another organization in the game -- like the Shadow Broker. Or even just creating another organization for that purpose. TIM is awesome though.

Shepard's over importance in the story. I know he's the hero and main character and all but he's just some guy who got randomly mind probed by an ancient alien artifact. He's not Space Jesus.

The Arrival DLC.

These things ruined the Reaper plot for me, granted I think ME3's sins were even worse; but the story was already broken by that point. I still like ME2, a lot (like a lot, a lot), but it's because of the characters, the world they were in, and their arcs; and the feeling of awesomeness that I feel whenever I complete the Suicide Mission.

You are right, these things were problematic and the list goes on and on. Butv compared to the problems me3 introduced, they are peanuts.

why does the reapers' strategy change? In ME1 it is vipe out everyone by takig control of the citadel and shutting down the Mass Relays. In ME2 it is building a human reaper, why? Well maybe they can explain it in the 3rd game? NOPE! Let's just forget the human reaper. This time the reapers play Godzilla on various planets. What happened to Mass Effect 1?

Why could the reapers just fly to the various solar systems from Dark Space? I thought they needed the Citadel Mass Relay to travel there. If they can juts fly over in, what 2 years (?), why didn't they do that in the first place? What happened to Mass Effect 1?

The entire ME2 game should have been. Assembling a crew of specialists as your main team. Getting all the races and the council to work together on the reaper solution. Let the reapers come back in ME3 and start the war from there.


All in all the series was not thought through well enough. This wasn't a problem in Mass Effect 1. ME1 is a complete game and in itself it makes sense. ME2 makes sense as well on it's own, if you start with Shepard there as "just another spacer who happened to get involved into a story". But if you want the ME2 Shepard to be the ME1 Shepard, if you see ME2 as a continuation of the ME1 story, it has major problems. These problems get even worse when ME3 is introduced. ME3 again is a complete game, and not abad one, on its own. But as the final part of the trilogy, it does not work.

[Linkenski]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

If we're going to talk about suspension of disbelieve shouldn't we go back to earlier parts of the series?

Hell no! In ME3 ground troopers kill reaper destroyers with mobile weaponry, the mother of all thresher maw kills a reaper on the same site as where the shroud is on a friggin huge ass planet, the writing is fuller of stupidity than ever before especially the hole "we have to save earth" not to mention Shepard auto-emoting all the time which makes it melodramatic. 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

Dreamgazer, why don't you list a few science fiction stories for me that have no such content 'littered' within them? I'm wondering to myself what exactly it is you consider 'metaphysical' and 'plot-moving.'

David, it ain't hard to rattle off sci-fi stories that aren't dependent on mystical brain/psyche rearrangement.