1814 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

Dreamgazer, why don't you list a few science fiction stories for me that have no such content 'littered' within them? I'm wondering to myself what exactly it is you consider 'metaphysical' and 'plot-moving.'

David, it ain't hard to rattle off sci-fi stories that aren't dependent on mystical brain/psyche rearrangement. 

Mass Effect is only middle of the road sci-fi. It started off fairly strong with ME1, gradually working its way to more and more fantastical stuff with lesser and lesser explanations by ME3. And it was progressive.

By ME3, the lore was being written around the story instead of the other way around. That's how ME sort of becomes less of a sci-fi and more of a space opera as the story goes on. 

I fully understand David will intentionally warp this statement to serve his own ends. That and David, with his dismissiveness to science, probably doesn't like hard science fiction, since that focuses a lot more on the technical aspects of the universe.

I think its a bonus. In my opinion, any good story must fit its own lore and universe. That's where ME3 buckled at the seams, and I can understand where people were disappointed with ME2 as well.

[crimzontearz]

again, for reference

[Ravensword]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

When it comes to one's threshold about suspension of disbelief, sure, in a way.  Especially in a series littered with metaphysical plot-moving bullshit from the very beginning. Nobody's opinions are "invalid", though. 

Dreamgazer, why don't you list a few science fiction stories for me that have no such content 'littered' within them? I'm wondering to myself what exactly it is you consider 'metaphysical' and 'plot-moving.'

David, it ain't hard to rattle off sci-fi stories that aren't dependent on mystical brain/psyche rearrangement. 

Mass Effect is only middle of the road sci-fi. It started off fairly strong with ME1, gradually working its way to more and more fantastical stuff with lesser and lesser explanations by ME3. And it was progressive.

By ME3, the lore was being written around the story instead of the other way around. That's how ME sort of becomes less of a sci-fi and more of a space opera as the story goes on. 

I fully understand David will intentionally warp this statement to serve his own ends. That and David, with his dismissiveness to science, probably doesn't like hard science fiction, since that focuses a lot more on the technical aspects of the universe.

I think its a bonus. In my opinion, any good story must fit its own lore and universe. That's where ME3 buckled at the seams, and I can understand where people were disappointed with ME2 as well.

Really? How can a person claming to be a physicist in training be dismissive of science? That's like an astronaut refusing to don a space suit before going out on an EVA.

[Invisible Man]

I also think the mass effect books helped kill the story too.

[spirosz]

Invisible Man wrote...

I also think the mass effect books helped kill the story too.

In what way?  Before ME3, even though they weren't the best written books, I thought they were well done and I was extremely excited to see Kai Leng because of the books before Deception (which I didn't even want to get into because of how poorly it showcased the characters).   Plus, the books weren't "canon" I believe.  Like David wasn't the councilour in the books... but they start of failed with that in the games anyway and I don't think that was because of the books.  

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Mass Effect is only middle of the road sci-fi. It started off fairly strong with ME1, gradually working its way to more and more fantastical stuff with lesser and lesser explanations by ME3. And it was progressive.

By ME3, the lore was being written around the story instead of the other way around. That's how ME sort of becomes less of a sci-fi and more of a space opera as the story goes on. 

I would phrase this a little differently. I think it's not so much that the mumbo-jumbo level increased very much, as that the specific functioning of the mumbo-jumbo became important to the plot.

[Invisible Man]

spirosz wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

I also think the mass effect books helped kill the story too.

In what way?  Before ME3, even though they weren't the best written books, I thought they were well done and I was extremely excited to see Kai Leng because of the books before Deception (which I didn't even want to get into because of how poorly it showcased the characters).   Plus, the books weren't "canon" I believe.  Like David wasn't the councilour in the books... but they start of failed with that in the games anyway and I don't think that was because of the books.  

I couldn't bring myself to read more than parts off of one of those books. can't even recall which one. imho, the plot, characters, and the story/backstory within the book itself was just all kind of hap hazard & a tad laughable. and I didn't like the fact that anything at all from these books made it into the mass effect games. I know I'm a tad picky about what I read and I'm likely overly critical but that's how I feel. if I've offended anyone who has read & liked the books, I apologize, as it was not my intent. though my feelings on the subject are somewhat different, it doesn't negate anyone else's, as we're all entitled to our own opinions.

---edited several times as I'm half asleep

Modifié par Invisible Man, 01 janvier 2014 - 05:53 .

[Iakus]

 I think Jan Jansen said it best just before the final battle of BG2:

Some villains refuse to die. Kill 'em once, kill 'em twice, they just keep coming back. It's just like a bad play. Here's hoping for a decent ending...

Emphasis mine 

Modifié par iakus, 02 janvier 2014 - 05:48 .

[MattFini]

I think ME3 CITADEL is a good enough indication that BW heard the fans loud and clear.

[Farangbaa]

MattFini wrote...

I think ME3 CITADEL is a good enough indication that BW heard the fans loud and clear.

"But they didn;t change the ending into a happy Hollywood lets-all-sit-around-the-campfire-and-rejoice kindof ending, so they don't listen to their fans!!11!!orzzz"

[Farangbaa]

StreetMagic wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

MattFini wrote...

I think ME3 CITADEL is a good enough indication that BW heard the fans loud and clear.

"But they didn;t change the ending into a happy Hollywood lets-all-sit-around-the-campfire-and-rejoice kindof ending, so they don't listen to their fans!!11!!orzzz"

I don't even see Citadel as an alternative or supplement to the "ending". I think they listened to fans as far as neglecting ME2 character content though. For that, I'm grateful. Although it'll never be as good as having some of those characters in the squad to begin with. There's a different story dynamic between squad roles and DLC fluff.

I see it's time for me to take out the sarcasm banners again... good God.

[CrutchCricket]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't even see Citadel as an alternative or supplement to the "ending". I think they listened to fans as far as neglecting ME2 character content though. For that, I'm grateful. Although it'll never be as good as having some of those characters in the squad to begin with. There's a different story dynamic between squad roles and DLC fluff.

Except they really didn't since all ME2 squad content was fluff and did not meaningfully address the other shortcomings the main game had, besides just lack of presence. Excluding them from the mission part of it then making that a show of how gung-ho "let's all stick together" the squad is (looking at you, shoot down from the ladder scene) was a real slap in the face. And even that was better than what Legion or Kelly fans got (i.e. precisely dick).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 02 janvier 2014 - 06:02 .

[CrutchCricket]

StreetMagic wrote...
That said, I'm not sure whose face is being slapped exactly. I mean, these characters were those very writers' creations. At least some were (Weekes and Walters). It wouldn't be just fans getting slapped. They're slapping themselves. In Legion's case though, they're slapping L'Etoile.

edit: Scratch that, Brian Kindregan wrote Jack in ME2. As well as Samara and Grunt. L'Etoile did Thane and Legion.

No wonder why these characters get neglected. I thought Weekes did Jack in both games. Guess not.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not so egotistically deluded as to assume the specific fullfillment or denial of my wishes as a fan were primary motivations for anything Bioware's ever done. Most of the failings of ME3 are actually proof of the opposite, that Bioware really doesn't give a ****.

On the other hand, somewhere along the line the decision in Citadel was made to give focus to say Wrex, over Miranda or Jack, the same way the main game decided to exclude all of them in favor of the ME1 squad + some less than stellar additions.

I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

[CronoDragoon]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

Why exactly do any ME2 characters except Miranda deserve a larger role in ME3?

And what constitutes fluff?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
That said, I'm not sure whose face is being slapped exactly. I mean, these characters were those very writers' creations. At least some were (Weekes and Walters). It wouldn't be just fans getting slapped. They're slapping themselves. In Legion's case though, they're slapping L'Etoile.

edit: Scratch that, Brian Kindregan wrote Jack in ME2. As well as Samara and Grunt. L'Etoile did Thane and Legion.

No wonder why these characters get neglected. I thought Weekes did Jack in both games. Guess not.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not so egotistically deluded as to assume the specific fullfillment or denial of my wishes as a fan were primary motivations for anything Bioware's ever done. Most of the failings of ME3 are actually proof of the opposite, that Bioware really doesn't give a ****.

On the other hand, somewhere along the line the decision in Citadel was made to give focus to say Wrex, over Miranda or Jack, the same way the main game decided to exclude all of them in favor of the ME1 squad + some less than stellar additions.

I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

Yup. There really is no reason why Wrex (who has a race to lead and a war to fight, and who falls under the auspices of the 'they might be dead' schtick - which of course, more people had Miranda and Jack alive than they did Wrex) than Miranda or Jack or some ME2 characters that were key to the ME2 plot just not show up at all, especially since characters like Miranda are doing... what the hell are they doing exactly? Leading a team off somewhere? Yeah, their roles seem more like perfunctory cameos than anything meaningful.

I do believe writer politics had something to with it. And if you feel no connection to the team in ME1 and ME3 (really, only James and Javik are the only characters I cared about), then it really does feel like a slight, considering how much they went out of the way for ME1 over ME2.

You get the whole 'the ME1-3 team is the team for Shepard' vibe, and you don't see anything more than passing mentions of ME2 characters, who never mattered and were just holding ground since Shepard couldn't get his real friends in.

I think some of it came down to the writers wanting a more uniform version of Shepard, and less player agency involved. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

Why exactly do any ME2 characters except Miranda deserve a larger role in ME3?

And what constitutes fluff?

Why do all of the ME1 characters deserve so much attention either? 

You had a team that you built around you, that you could work to be undyingly loyal to you in ME2, filled with specialists with real capability and power that no one in ME1 could really match.

Ashley is a generic infantryman with no practical field experience and no special skills or training. 

Liara is a civilian whos essentially on the ship to be eye candy and because she supposedly knows things about the Protheans.

Tali is a great engineer, but does she have to be on the field?

Garrus to a degree does earn his place.

Same with Wrex, though he has more important things to do with the Krogan.

And Kaidan is an experienced Biotic, but I already have 3 experience biotics on my team who are human, with Jacob being of arguably equal skill as him, and Miranda and Jack being more powerful. All 3 are also willing to fight dirty and willing to do things that seem bad and dark to get the mission done. Why exactly do I need him?

Really, you are given a flippant non-excuse for many people in ME2 to not be on the team for ME3.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
That said, I'm not sure whose face is being slapped exactly. I mean, these characters were those very writers' creations. At least some were (Weekes and Walters). It wouldn't be just fans getting slapped. They're slapping themselves. In Legion's case though, they're slapping L'Etoile.

edit: Scratch that, Brian Kindregan wrote Jack in ME2. As well as Samara and Grunt. L'Etoile did Thane and Legion.

No wonder why these characters get neglected. I thought Weekes did Jack in both games. Guess not.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not so egotistically deluded as to assume the specific fullfillment or denial of my wishes as a fan were primary motivations for anything Bioware's ever done. Most of the failings of ME3 are actually proof of the opposite, that Bioware really doesn't give a ****.

On the other hand, somewhere along the line the decision in Citadel was made to give focus to say Wrex, over Miranda or Jack, the same way the main game decided to exclude all of them in favor of the ME1 squad + some less than stellar additions.

I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

Yeah, I agree. I'm trying to not get too pissed about it though. I'll just let this be my last post on the subject for now. If I keep talking, I will get pissed. haha. I don't know how to state it without sounding like it's just sour grapes to not see my favorite characters enough. Essentially, I just think it's a strange attitude to adopt at the tail end of a series. To turn the universe you just expanded as little two or three years ago into something even smaller. I want to tell them how much they got me excited with the last game.. and then just turned around and deflated me.

Ok, I'm getting pissed.

Yup, I've been pissed about it for a while.

Citadel is great, but it could have been better. 

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm. To add to that:

On an individual basis most ME1 squad mates were set up story-wise to be non-squad by virtue of doing more important things on their own. Example: Wrex leading the Krogan, Liara as the Shadow Broker, Garrus, turian liason, Tali, quarian Admiralty etc

By comparsion, most of the ME2 squad are doing ****-all and are not as primly situated either.
Miranda-?
Jacob-?
Jack- the teacher angle is highly improbable. You could've shown the same character development by having her lead and support a private biotic group like those 'terrorists" in that one side mission in ME1.
Samara-?
Thane- yeah, yeah he's terminal but I don't recall ME2 explicitly giving him six months to live. That he's kicking the can during the war is on Bioware, and even though I'm not a fan of the character, an excuse to keep him out.
Kasumi-?
Zaeed-?
Grunt-?

Mordin and Legion are the only ones who got satisfactory significance in the main game though I'm sure people still would've wanted to see more of them. In their case at least, more screen time would've been just "fluff" but the difference is you're pairing importance to the story with character development and more time to just spend with them as opposed to mostly ignoring them, and then just parading them around for a few self-referential jokes. That's fluff.

[KaiserShep]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
I suppose it would be interesting to find out how much, if at all internal writer politics had to do with squad selection. But the bottom line is someone made a decision to favor only some characters and anyone associated with the rest got a one-fingered salute, despite how the fluff might dazzle you otherwise.

Why exactly do any ME2 characters except Miranda deserve a larger role in ME3?

And what constitutes fluff?

Why do all of the ME1 characters deserve so much attention either? 

You had a team that you built around you, that you could work to be undyingly loyal to you in ME2, filled with specialists with real capability and power that no one in ME1 could really match.

Ashley is a generic infantryman with no practical field experience and no special skills or training. 

Liara is a civilian whos essentially on the ship to be eye candy and because she supposedly knows things about the Protheans.

Tali is a great engineer, but does she have to be on the field?

Garrus to a degree does earn his place.

Same with Wrex, though he has more important things to do with the Krogan.

And Kaidan is an experienced Biotic, but I already have 3 experience biotics on my team who are human, with Jacob being of arguably equal skill as him, and Miranda and Jack being more powerful. All 3 are also willing to fight dirty and willing to do things that seem bad and dark to get the mission done. Why exactly do I need him?

Really, you are given a flippant non-excuse for many people in ME2 to not be on the team for ME3.

In all fairness, this is kind of the problem with forcibly removing certain characters from the first installment and putting a lot of entirely new ones while keeping the protagonist the same. At the very least, Garrus and Tali earn their spot by virtue of playing big parts themselves in ME2.

As far as the VS goes, Kaidan would have been immensely more useful than Jacob. He's pretty much a watered-down vanguard who is only good for squad incendiary ammo, which didn't mean much if you play a vanguard or soldier yourself. That said, Miranda is pretty much like a sentinel without tech armor so there's not much need for another.

Regardless of what one may think of Tali, she does at least provide the ship with cyclonic shielding. Aside from that, she's the only squad member other than Legion who can launch attack drones and hack synthetics.