1814 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@Crutch:

It's pretty amusing when you think about it, because literally all of the ME3 team except for EDI and Javik could be off doing something more important (and they all mostly have important duties they could be doing), while the ME2 team of course is given vague explanations to their non-presence, yet all inexplicably cannot rejoin the Normandy.

James - He's a Special Forces Soldier that is a good fit for the mission, though he'd also be a good fit on some Operations that go behind the lines and do vital things.

Garrus is a bloody General in the Turian Military. He could definitely be off using his knowledge and skills somewhere where he would count.

Tali is an Admiral for the Quarians. She isn't military necessarily, but her skills would be best served working on helping the Quarians get resources from their world and coordinating the relief fleets for moving resources and evacuating people. Sure, she's an immensely talented engineer, but I think her skills would work better doing something more than the Normandy. 

Liara is the Shadow Broker. She has a massive spy and intelligence network at her disposal, and she could be coordinating the war effort there. There's literally nothing about Liara's combat ability in universe (not gameplay) that would make her standout or be desirable.

Kaidan is an experienced Biotic and Military Officer that has a special operation biotic team that would be doing pretty much what Jack is doing. If you don't recruit him, he does just that.

Ashley... has no particular skills worth mentioning beyond her being a good front-line Soldier. And in my opinion, she is vastly under-qualified for service on the Normandy. She would be best used as a generic grunt on some world. BW is kinder to her. She gets her own team and works as a dispatch officer and coordinator for the alliance. Really the only reason to have her on the Normandy is if she's your LI ****buddy. Or if you just want to torture her like me.

Hell, even Javik, as a time and battle tested warrior, could theoretically be leading his own team against the Reapers similar to Shepard.

EDI's robot body is a useful infiltrator, but I think she'd be even better served doing similar work to what Dr. Eva did. That, and she'd be good as a template for the AIU bots from MP. Meanwhile, her Normandy self would still be flying the Normandy. I get the feeling she's just there to give Joker an LI. And it's really creepy and disturbing.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 02 janvier 2014 - 11:01 .

[CrutchCricket]

KaiserShep wrote...
As far as the VS goes, Kaidan would have been immensely more useful than Jacob. He's pretty much a watered-down vanguard who is only good for squad incendiary ammo, which didn't mean much if you play a vanguard or soldier yourself. That said, Miranda is pretty much like a sentinel without tech armor so there's not much need for another.

Regardless of what one may think of Tali, she does at least provide the ship with cyclonic shielding. Aside from that, she's the only squad member other than Legion who can launch attack drones and hack synthetics.

You're arguing from gameplay. MassivelyEffective and I are arguing from a story and lore perspective.

I've always played a sniper infiltrator. Squadmates were and are superfluous to me. It's the characters I wanted at my side that matter.

Still, I'm sure that even from a gameplay standpoint your points are debateable. I seem to recall people saying Miranda has awesome passives.

StreetMagic wrote...
The teacher angle is probable for a romanced Jack at least. And maybe for like a best friend/Femshep type of story. She's already showing hints at being at a crossroads in ME2 ("Joyriding doesn't have the thrill it used to") and in the Suicide Mission, she's finally commited. That said, they definitely wanted to railroad her a bit in this direction. Any other pathways were made void. I think the way Hudson talked about her during ME2's release, he always wanted everyone to see her soft side to begin with.

I meant in terms of official channels. Psychotic biotic convict and you're going to let her near children? I don't think anyone in the Alliance would be willing to sign off on that. Maybe her character development would lead her to that kind of role. But no official would trust her with it. Hence my suggestion of a fringe group.

[CrutchCricket]

It's sad but that's the only kind of Shepard that would work with what they've given us if he really used to be gung-ho:

Kill everyone in ME2 except Kasumi (there's a bug that makes this possible I think) then play your Shep as a total douche. It explains why there's no ME2 squad, it explains why Shepard was in jail as opposed to talking some sense into the Alliance or forcing his allies to do the same. Kasumi goes from coward to reasonably justified in her fear. Keep it relatively low-ems and blow everything to ****. Too bad you can't drink on command on the Normandy anymore or it'd be perfect in the most depressing way.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
As far as the VS goes, Kaidan would have been immensely more useful than Jacob. He's pretty much a watered-down vanguard who is only good for squad incendiary ammo, which didn't mean much if you play a vanguard or soldier yourself. That said, Miranda is pretty much like a sentinel without tech armor so there's not much need for another.

Regardless of what one may think of Tali, she does at least provide the ship with cyclonic shielding. Aside from that, she's the only squad member other than Legion who can launch attack drones and hack synthetics.

You're arguing from gameplay. MassivelyEffective and I are arguing from a story and lore perspective.

I've always played a sniper infiltrator. Squadmates were and are superfluous to me. It's the characters I wanted at my side that matter.

Still, I'm sure that even from a gameplay standpoint your points are debateable. I seem to recall people saying Miranda has awesome passives.

My Shepard is a Soldier and Commando. A Veteran Special Operations Officer who can work well as a single Agent. He's an incredible leader as well, but have Miranda at his side and they'd be a brilliant battle couple taking on the galaxy.

[CrutchCricket]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

@Crutch:

It's pretty amusing when you think about it, because literally all of the ME3 team except for EDI and Javik could be off doing something more important (and they all mostly have important duties they could be doing), while the ME2 team of course is given vague explanations to their non-presence, yet all inexplicably cannot rejoin the Normandy.

James - He's a Special Forces Soldier that is a good fit for the mission, though he'd also be a good fit on some Operations that go behind the lines and do vital things.

Garrus is a bloody General in the Turian Military. He could definitely be off using his knowledge and skills somewhere where he would count.

Tali is an Admiral for the Quarians. She isn't military necessarily, but her skills would be best served working on helping the Quarians get resources from their world and coordinating the relief fleets for moving resources and evacuating people. Sure, she's an immensely talented engineer, but I think her skills would work better doing something more than the Normandy. 

Liara is the Shadow Broker. She has a massive spy and intelligence network at her disposal, and she could be coordinating the war effort there. There's literally nothing about Liara's combat ability in universe (not gameplay) that would make her standout or be desirable.

Kaidan is an experienced Biotic and Military Officer that has a special operation biotic team that would be doing pretty much what Jack is doing. If you don't recruit him, he does just that.

Ashley... has no particular skills worth mentioning beyond her being a good front-line Soldier. And in my opinion, she is vastly under-qualified for service on the Normandy. She would be best used as a generic grunt on some world. BW is kinder to her. She gets her own team and works as a dispatch officer and coordinator for the alliance. Really the only reason to have her on the Normandy is if she's your LI ****buddy. Or if you just want to torture her like me.

Hell, even Javik, as a time and battle tested warrior, could theoretically be leading his own team against the Reapers similar to Shepard.

EDI's robot body is a useful infiltrator, but I think she'd be even better served doing similar work to what Dr. Eva did. That, and she'd be good as a template for the AIU bots from MP. Meanwhile, her Normandy self would still be flying the Normandy. I get the feeling she's just there to give Joker an LI. And it's really creepy and disturbing.

Well there is a flip side to that. Some of the assumed importance of the ME1 squad in ME3 feels token and flimsy. Garrus' "Reaper task force" is ambiguous, Tali's promotion is downright laughable and I clearly like and respect Ashley more than you do but her becoming a Spectre is definitely political.

And yeah EDI wasted a squad slot. We could've had all the same interaction and character growth without the sexbot body. And even if she must have it, I don't see why it should take up a squad slot at all.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Well there is a flip side to that. Some of the assumed importance of the ME1 squad in ME3 feels token and flimsy. Garrus' "Reaper task force" is ambiguous, Tali's promotion is downright laughable and I clearly like and respect Ashley more than you do but her becoming a Spectre is definitely political.

And yeah EDI wasted a squad slot. We could've had all the same interaction and character growth without the sexbot body. And even if she must have it, I don't see why it should take up a squad slot at all.

Well, beyond even Garrus' 'RTF', he was being saluted by Generals, and was stated to be one as such. And with the Reapers here, and with someone of Garrus' skills and experience, he'd be perfect for leading Turian soldiers agains the Reapers.

Tali's promotion is completely laughable, yeah, but she'd still have some other kind of use for the war effort beyond the Normandy. In ME3, she really doesn't have much to do with the ship, seeing as she doesn't join until late in the game. I'd imagine she'd be a better technician and engineer for the Crucible along with Xen than a military leader. Or she could be doing work back on Rannoch, helping re-establish Quarians there, or working to coordinate the Geth and Quarians if you chose to end the conflict between them in a non-violent manner.

And Ashley, yeah, we've been over her before, and my opinion of her hasn't changed. Everything about her career past ME1 screams 'politics' to me. My belief is that (in my game at least) she got a lot of sympathy support from Anderson for the reasons of never having before been able to prove herself, plus the sympathy of having been the last girl to be with Shepard (and supposedly in love with him). My assessment of her skills and experience I feel is just, and she really is a glorified infantryman. As I said, she's gravely underqualified for service on the Normandy. At best, she should be serving as a training officer or NCO, giving advice on how to fight Reapers.

[themikefest]

It's unfortunate that ME2 characters didn't get more time.

James I liked. Very good in combat with a lot of training. If given the chioce I would've rather of had an ME2 character in his place

the robot took up a squadmate position. It was better as a holographic

Ashley/Kaidan I like. They to are good in combat and are mini tanks

Liara wants to be the broker so let her be. She would've be better off being with Hackett helping gathering resources for the crucible or in an office on the Citadelstaying in touch with Hackett as well as getting any updates from her agents

Javik is cool. I would've just leave him(though he's alright as a squadmate) on the ship and after each mission he can give his opinion about it. As with James, if given the choice I would've breought in an ME2 character to be on the ship.

With Garrus and Tali

In almost all my playthroughs both died in ME2

Garrus does nothing in ME3 except calibrate. 

Making Tali an Admiral was hilarious. At best I would've made her an E-4 at best. She would be better off helping her people. If I have Ken and Gabby on the ship than she doesn't need to be. They're much better engineer's   

Modifié par themikefest, 03 janvier 2014 - 12:18 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

The ME3 team definitely feels like some sort of hyper-charged Star Trek away team, where the highest ranking and most important members of the crew constantly put themselves in danger.

[CronoDragoon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hmm. To add to that:

On an individual basis most ME1 squad mates were set up story-wise to be non-squad by virtue of doing more important things on their own. Example: Wrex leading the Krogan, Liara as the Shadow Broker, Garrus, turian liason, Tali, quarian Admiralty etc

By comparsion, most of the ME2 squad are doing ****-all and are not as primly situated either.
Miranda-?
Jacob-?
Jack- the teacher angle is highly improbable. You could've shown the same character development by having her lead and support a private biotic group like those 'terrorists" in that one side mission in ME1.
Samara-?
Thane- yeah, yeah he's terminal but I don't recall ME2 explicitly giving him six months to live. That he's kicking the can during the war is on Bioware, and even though I'm not a fan of the character, an excuse to keep him out.
Kasumi-?
Zaeed-?
Grunt-?

Mordin and Legion are the only ones who got satisfactory significance in the main game though I'm sure people still would've wanted to see more of them. In their case at least, more screen time would've been just "fluff" but the difference is you're pairing importance to the story with character development and more time to just spend with them as opposed to mostly ignoring them, and then just parading them around for a few self-referential jokes. That's fluff.

I can see why practically you can make an argument for people to be on your squad from ME2, but the argument is mainly that they have nothing better to do, which is another way of saying they don't really matter to the story for multiple reasons: such as their character arcs being completed (which they were, with the exception of Miranda), or their relative unimportance to the events of ME3.

So this argument to me is a double-edged sword. Even if you show why it makes more sense realistically for ME2 characters to be on your squad, you've also shown why it would be more compelling for important characters who still have important thematic or practical roles in the story to be the ones with the most screentime: characters such as Tali, Garrus, Ashley/Kaiden.

In actuality there are a few changes I'd make to the ME3 squad. Miranda takes EDI's place; EDI is fine as a ship and is still always available for dialogue to develop her character. Miranda's character was woefully underdeveloped in ME2 and her loyalty mission fails to explain her defection from Cerberus to Shepard at the end of ME2. ME3 should have fleshed out her reasons for this, especially given the prominence of Cerberus in ME3. I could also see an argument for Ashley/Kaiden to not rejoin you post-coup.

Other than that there's no one I would substitute from ME2 in place of the ME3 characters we have.

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

What does "unimportance to the events of ME3" even mean? It's a Reaper war. Everyone is involved. Like Shepard tells Jacob in ME2: There's no hiding from it.

It's not like everything has be so closely entwined with Protheans and Geth to matter. It's a ****ing war. Time to rock out and have fun with it.

If you're suggesting that certain characters aren't more or less relevant to the plot of ME3 then I disagree, but I don't think you're suggesting that.

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...
I think some characters are more important, of course. That doesn't mean everyone else needed to be neglected. Characters can still be enjoyed in their own right. Not everything needs to revolve around plot. Characters are also about providing atmosphere and style, if you will.

Yes they are, but on the one hand you have important characters that provide atmosphere and style, and on the other unimportant ones. That's how I see it anyway. It's okay to be disappointed certain ME2 characters didn't make the cut, it's another thing to say it was a mistake to do things how they did.

Neglected is a subjective assertion. I feel that one mission dedicated to the likes of Jacob, Samara, Jack (who gets one of the best missions in the game, full stop), Grunt, Zaeed, Kasumi, etc, is more than enough. And I really like some of those characters. My friend disliked that they even get one mission at all, not because he didn't like the characters but because the convenience of it made him roll his eyes (as one review put it, it seems like there's only 20 people in the galaxy and Shepard knows them all).

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...
The convenience is just a weakness of this particular formula of importing/way of storytelling. I'm not going to hold that against the characters themselves. They're still great. Having what little we did is at least better than nothing. But my point is I'd prefer more.

I don't think I'm asking for much. If anything, I'm asking for games to elevate themselves more to the level of tv shows or books. Ensembles are presented far better in those two mediums. You get a lot of character writing there. The closer games get to that, the better (although I don't expect quite as much. Just saying, the closer the better). But as long as fans like you are satisfied with cameos, it won't get better. edit: That sounds a little insulting. I don't mean it in that way. I'm just at a loss.

A television show would never have introduced more characters than its medium could feasibly juggle (at least a good one), which is exactly what ME2 did. "Getting better" would have been to cut the ME2 squad in half so it could flesh out the remaining characters more. There is no simple "more ME2 characters" request, because such a thing doesn't take into account time or resources. More ME2 character screentime means less ME1/ME3 character screentime. I think you should just be glad that these characters exist at all when many are completely superfluous to the central conflict of the series. In that sense cameos are absolutely enough for me.

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...
No offense, but that's basically what this is going to come down to. Best to keep it simple.

Um, not really? I have nothing against people who wanted to see more of their favorite ME2 characters. Grunt is my avatar, for crying out loud. I'm just explaining why I think BioWare chose this route. They can't make everyone happy. If you're like Massively of course and simply don't care then fair enough. I won't argue personal preference.

[CrutchCricket]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I can see why practically you can make an argument for people to be on your squad from ME2, but the argument is mainly that they have nothing better to do, which is another way of saying they don't really matter to the story for multiple reasons: such as their character arcs being completed (which they were, with the exception of Miranda), or their relative unimportance to the events of ME3.

Well, not exactly. It's not just about arcs. Characters, like people can constantly grow and evolve. Character arcs are related to a specific problem or event (Miranda-Ceberus, Mordin-genophage, Legion-geth etc.) But character development does not need to end with the conclusion of the arc. By that same token characters that don't have an active arc should not just be ignored as a result. An example: Samara concluded her arc in ME2. But her mission in ME3 provided more character development. One could argue that her presence in ME3, though limted was well spent. Now contrast Kasumi who in my honest opinion had no character development whatsoever, even in ME2, despite the completion of her arc. Indeed her ME3 appearance undoes implied development as she's still moping over the graybox even if you destroyed it.

So this argument to me is a double-edged sword. Even if you show why it makes more sense realistically for ME2 characters to be on your squad, you've also shown why it would be more compelling for important characters who still have important thematic or practical roles in the story to be the ones with the most screentime: characters such as Tali, Garrus, Ashley/Kaiden.

What important story or thematic roles do they have again? Everyone you've mentioned gets artificially promoted and ironically, that promotion should keep them off the squad, not secure their place on it. The only one with pre-existing importance to anything outside the squad is Tali, though it's merely by interchangable representation. She doesn't really provide a unique perspective like Legion does.

My point isn't that the ME2 squad is more deserving. It's rather that the ME1 squad isn't more deserving and the only reason they're more prominent is favoritism. Any of the characters ME1 or ME2 could be made as crucial or as arbitrary to the story as you like. But a decision was clearly made to favor some over others. And as for the rest, very few put in satisfactory appearances. So yes people want more. And they want more significance as well. You asked what fluff was. In light of our discussion on character development, let's add to that definition: something that add character development/growth. None of the extra content of Citadel did that hence it's fluff.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
I can see why practically you can make an argument for people to be on your squad from ME2, but the argument is mainly that they have nothing better to do, which is another way of saying they don't really matter to the story for multiple reasons: such as their character arcs being completed (which they were, with the exception of Miranda), or their relative unimportance to the events of ME3.

Well, not exactly. It's not just about arcs. Characters, like people can constantly grow and evolve. Character arcs are related to a specific problem or event (Miranda-Ceberus, Mordin-genophage, Legion-geth etc.) But character development does not need to end with the conclusion of the arc. By that same token characters that don't have an active arc should not just be ignored as a result. An example: Samara concluded her arc in ME2. But her mission in ME3 provided more character development. One could argue that her presence in ME3, though limted was well spent. Now contrast Kasumi who in my honest opinion had no character development whatsoever, even in ME2, despite the completion of her arc. Indeed her ME3 appearance undoes implied development as she's still moping over the graybox even if you destroyed it.

So this argument to me is a double-edged sword. Even if you show why it makes more sense realistically for ME2 characters to be on your squad, you've also shown why it would be more compelling for important characters who still have important thematic or practical roles in the story to be the ones with the most screentime: characters such as Tali, Garrus, Ashley/Kaiden.

What important story or thematic roles do they have again? Everyone you've mentioned gets artificially promoted and ironically, that promotion should keep them off the squad, not secure their place on it. The only one with pre-existing importance to anything outside the squad is Tali, though it's merely by interchangable representation. She doesn't really provide a unique perspective like Legion does.

My point isn't that the ME2 squad is more deserving. It's rather that the ME1 squad isn't more deserving and the only reason they're more prominent is favoritism. Any of the characters ME1 or ME2 could be made as crucial or as arbitrary to the story as you like. But a decision was clearly made to favor some over others. And as for the rest, very few put in satisfactory appearances. So yes people want more. And they want more significance as well. You asked what fluff was. In light of our discussion on character development, let's add to that definition: something that add character development/growth. None of the extra content of Citadel did that hence it's fluff.

I emphatically agree with this.

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

You can't make everyone happy, but they definitely did a better job at trying the last time. What you see as a flaw I see as strength.

Ask Ashley/Kaiden fans how happy they were in ME2. Were you expecting every ME2 character to get a Lair of the Shadow Broker? Exactly what level of content would have made you happy? Are you asking for another 12-man squad?