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I'm frustrated that ME3 didn't learn its lesson IMO


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#1276
txgoldrush

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Lizardviking wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Liara being the broker is simply not important anymore.

And her romance was fine.


Then what was the point of her becoming Broker in the first place?


To use her information to find a way to stop the Reapers. This role is fulfilled with the Crucible.


Yes, the Crucible, a Prothean device which could just as easily have been justified been found through the virtue of Liara being a Prothean expert. That is why her SB role was so worthless.

txgoldrush wrote...
And her romance was fine.


Aside from the friend-zoning due to lack of acknowledgement (thinking of the time capsule and 2. lock-in scene) and strange decision to have to two seperate "romance lock-in" dialog.


However, in LotSB, Liara explains that the Broker had info on data from the Protheans that they haven't used yet.

Nevermind Liara being the Shadow Broker also meant three more things with the overall narrative.

1. Removal of an antagonist that allied with Reaper forces
2. A way for Cerberus to follow Liara and thus also discover the Crucible for their own plans.
3. Character development for Liara

However her role as the Broker is diminished after finding the Crucible as her network gets destroyed by the Reapers, Nevermind Cerberus compromising her.

They have only one lock in romance scene for Liara, what are you talking about? Her romance arc isn't locked until meeting with her on the Presidum in the second act. The time capsule scene can work as both a friend and a romance. No real friend zoning here.

#1277
txgoldrush

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Daemul wrote...

txgoldrush wrote... 

And how many conversations do I get with Tali on the Normandy?

1. Her introduction
2. Talking to her in the war room.
3. Talking to her in the captains quarters
4. Talking to her in engineering after the Rannoch arc.
5. Talking to her after Horizon, in the bar.

One Citadel conversation, one romance scene, and a goodbye conversation.

So, you are wrong.

Ever thought that just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it is bad?


You've just reminded me that I was supposed to count the number of conversations(where a dialogue wheel pops up) each of the ME3 squadmates had with Shepard. I really should actually do that sometime, but I keep forgetting.


More dialogue count doesn't mean more or better character development.

In fact Bioware has not been good with character development in the past because they turn their characters into talking codex entries where they reveal only part of their backstory each conversation.

ME3 feels more like KOTOR 2...a lot more dialogue in between characters, and more character involvement in the plot and the side quests. ME3 does not go so far as to make those characters playable however.

#1278
ImaginaryMatter

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txgoldrush wrote...

Its "yep", I do know more about ME3, but that's only because I pay attention.

Its funny how posters with hundreds of posts here miss the point entirely.

Criticizing criticizers for missing the point is fair game. You may not like it but it is what it is.


I thought we weren't allowed to talk about the IT here...

oh wait...

#1279
CrutchCricket

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CronoDragoon wrote...
Kasumi? Someone you say finished her character arc and moreover was DLC? Exactly what did she still have to bring to the story outside of her fans simply wanting more? No, a minor mission is enough for her I think.

Being DLC is no excuse, particularly when DLC characters are more interesting than some stock characters. As for story importance you know as well as I do how arbitrary that is. The writers dictated her importance to the story (or lack thereof) just as they dictated her shoddy appearance. Just as they also dictated I might add, the overinflated appearance and importance of other characters. Writer favoritism is the cause of decreased signficance and therefore screentime, not the other way around.

For Thane and Jacob, I'd argue their issue isn't screentime but what the writers did with said screentime. Jacob is a waste of time from the moment they introduce him. He could have served as the character who calls out the Alliance on hypocritical bull**** with his background as a corsair. Instead his father goes nuts and he knocks up a scientist. I don't have a problem with Thane's sacrifice but romancers of course disagree.

Well quality over quantity naturally. Still doesn't change the fact that people still want more even in the cases where the alloted time is used satisfactorily


No, actually. She's the only character except maybe Raan who actually changes her opinion about the geth, and since she's a more prominent character than Raan what I said stands. Koris is at the other extreme from Xen, and Gherrel doesn't really care one way or another as long as he gets Rannoch back. She's the only one who's opinion of the geth as a race demonstrably changes from her interactions with them.

Please. With all the imagery and feel-good tone at the end of the peace ending, you'd almost think it's a happily ever after scenario if you didn't realize there was also a galactic war to win. Besides I don't seem to recall her saying anything overly racist about the geth before. Certainly she mistrusts and even despises them for the predicament the quarians are in. But I don't recall her saying they're just suborganic machines or anything like that before. So without that you're left with "I used to hate you because you took away my home but now we're cool", which is again, every other quarian except for Xen. And Koris I guess.

Good point about Udina, but I fail to see how the VS is less worthy of screentime than Jacob in terms of "soldier worthiness" or whatever.

They're not. But by that token then, why is Jacob less worthy of Spectre or squad status and associated screentime? Do you see how all things being equal, the only explanation remaining is bull**** favoritism?

What DLC? Citadel? I think you're in the minority of ME2 fans pissed about their treatment in Citadel, although they goofed when their initial PR release seemed to state that you could do the whole DLC with them.

Oh well if I'm in the minority then it's ok to ****** all over my preferences. Or perhaps to politely dismiss them as preferences implicitly irrelevant.

The ME1 squad is held highly and the ME2 one entertains diminished roles because the ME2 characters each have their own story that's completed at the end of the loyalty mission. Any appearance in ME3 is basically fan service at that point. Contrast this to the ME1 squad, who for the most part are either tied to the Reaper plot or to a major series arc that comes to a conclusion in ME3. The VS becomes tied to the Cerberus conflict by the middle of ME2. Tali = Rannoch. Liara is tied to both the Reapers and the Protheans, which becomes especially meaningful when Javik the Great and Mighty enters the fray in ME3. By this logic Wrex should have been a squadmate in ME3, which I still kinda agree with.

Uhh... no. The ME1 squad are no more "tied into the Reaper plot" than anyone else that stands in danger of becoming Reaper slushies. As for side plots...

The VS doesn't become tied to Cerberus. ****ing and whining about how they used to trust you and "you've totally changed man!" while doing ****all to address the ongoing problems does not a tie make. By that logic, Anderson is also tied to Cerberus because he also disapproves of your association.
Liara has no ties to the Reapers and any speculations she might've had on the Protheans get hilariously eclipsed and roflstomped by Javik. Add to that the most outrageous example of artificial promotion to date and you've got a character that at best should've fit Hackett's role but with benefits.
Garrus has no ties that weren't just hastily and superficially pasted on to him
Tali is tied to the quarians and ironically would've made more sense on the squad if she was still just some admiral's daughter. Being promoted did her no favors. Regardless you cannot possibly claim she has more right to squad status than Legion.
Wrex is fine where he is. At least until Citadel makes him quad-teabag both his responsibilities to the krogan and the hopes of fans whose characters were equally loved but not as tied up.

The ME1 squad had zero closer ties to the main plot, zero issues that just begged further exploring and zero innate superiority to the ME2 squad. The bottom line is you had a pool of sixteen equal squadmates to choose from and Bioware clearly pampered six of them, to varying degrees, while the others were at best neglected. The fact that some of the character writers made the best of the limitations they were given and got the most of a character's appearance does not change the fact that those limitations were unfairly stringent.

#1280
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...
Not to mention that except for Liara and Garrus, the ME1 team doesn't get get much better treatment than the ME2 team.

Sure, the ME2 team got it worse, but that doesn't make what the ME1 team got good


I'd even argue that Liara's character was not that well handled. Her entire SB subplot winds up being completely meaningless and then there is the botched romance dialog.


I'd actually agree.

OTOH, they replaced that with Traynor, whom I'm smitten with. Even though I'm not a lesbian. :D

Modifié par StreetMagic, 04 janvier 2014 - 06:50 .


#1281
ImaginaryMatter

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StreetMagic wrote...

I'd actually agree.

OTOH, they replaced that with Traynor, whom I'm smitten with. Even though I'm not a lesbian. :D


Similar circumstances here, although girls with English accents are like catnip to my ears and my heart.

#1282
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 04 janvier 2014 - 08:36 .


#1283
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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txgoldrush wrote...

However, in LotSB, Liara explains that the Broker had info on data from the Protheans that they haven't used yet.

Nevermind Liara being the Shadow Broker also meant three more things with the overall narrative.

1. Removal of an antagonist that allied with Reaper forces
2. A way for Cerberus to follow Liara and thus also discover the Crucible for their own plans.
3. Character development for Liara


All these 3 things could have been accomplished without having Liara becoming the SB. They could easily have had the SB ship by the end of LOTSB start a self-destruct countdown when the broker is killed, Liara and Shepard tries to mine as much data as possible from the computers before grabbing Feron and getting out of there.

All 3 parts would be fullfilled without giving Liara a major role.

txgoldrush wrote...
However her role as the Broker is diminished after finding the Crucible as her network gets destroyed by the Reapers, Nevermind Cerberus compromising her.


I do not care about what justifications they try to use to why nothing comes out of her subplot. Try looking at it from a storytelling perspective.

Why give a character a new major role that comes with lots of powers and resources, when the only thing that role is used for could just as easily have been fufilled by the characters previous role? If the only thing the SB subplot was going to be used for was finding a Prothean device, why not just have Liara stay an archeologist throughout ME2?

txgoldrush wrote...
They have only one lock in romance scene for Liara, what are you talking about? Her romance arc isn't locked until meeting with her on the Presidum in the second act. The time capsule scene can work as both a friend and a romance. No real friend zoning here.


There is the first one after Mars/Citadel prologue, then there is the Presidium chat as you mentioned.

My problem with the capsule scene is the end with "You have been a good friend to me", IMO a bette solution to a romancing Shepard would have been "You have been good to me", it is a line that says the same thing without the unintentional friendzoning.

#1284
BaladasDemnevanni

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CrutchCricket wrote...

Being DLC is no excuse, particularly when DLC characters are more interesting than some stock characters. As for story importance you know as well as I do how arbitrary that is. The writers dictated her importance to the story (or lack thereof) just as they dictated her shoddy appearance. Just as they also dictated I might add, the overinflated appearance and importance of other characters. Writer favoritism is the cause of decreased signficance and therefore screentime, not the other way around.


Or fan-favoritism. Or simply an overall plot relevance. The ME2 characters who have the most screen time are also typically the ones most tied into some sub-plot of the story: Legion, Miranda, Mordin, although he's ME1 Wrex as well, etc.

I buy into the whole "quality over quantity" bit, but even I have trouble thinking that most fans would think Zaeed/Kasumi would receive as much attention, compared to any other companions. It's not like they were even done in the style of Javik, where they're completely integrated into the main game. After their loyalty mission is completed, it's dreadfully obvious that the content available for both characters is extremely cheap.

#1285
von uber

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Lizardviking wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
And her romance was fine.


Aside from the friend-zoning due to lack of acknowledgement (thinking of the time capsule and 2. lock-in scene) and strange decision to have to two seperate "romance lock-in" dialog.


The worst part was if you romanced her (and stayed faithful) through the entire trilogy. You STILL have to bleeding lock it in halfway through ME3.
What the hell was the point of the other 5/6ths of the trilogy romancing for then if at that point she can still go 'actually, you are just a friend'.
It wouldn't have taken much to resolve; hell it could've been sorted when you met on Mars. "Oh hi, it's been six months, how you doing, let's carry on where we left off. I.e bloody well together".
Tali / Ash / Kaidan you can understand more because you have less contact with them through the series (and in ME2 they think you are a working for the enemy).

#1286
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...
Not to mention that except for Liara and Garrus, the ME1 team doesn't get get much better treatment than the ME2 team.

Sure, the ME2 team got it worse, but that doesn't make what the ME1 team got good


I'd even argue that Liara's character was not that well handled. Her entire SB subplot winds up being completely meaningless and then there is the botched romance dialog.


I'd actually agree.

OTOH, they replaced that with Traynor, whom I'm smitten with. Even though I'm not a lesbian. :D


True, I guess I am being too harsh on ME2 in my previous posts since this is a case of the fault lying solely on ME3's own incompetence. Liara was meant to do Shadow-Broker'y stuff in ME3, but somewhere along the line they realised that Traynor had no role beyond serving as the token lesbian-only romance, so they gave her quite a bit of Liara's content.

#1287
Nightwriter

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StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

I am beginning to think game-to-game story continuity is a lost cause.

#1288
MassivelyEffective0730

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Nightwriter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

I am beginning to think game-to-game story continuity is a lost cause.


I don't think it is quite yet. 

I and a couple of friends are working on mapping out possibilities for just about everything in the trilogy. We're doing it on a micro-scale with personal decisions and such for Shepard and what they mean. We hope to ramp it up to a macro-scale, but for now we'll finish what we have with Shep.

#1289
Iakus

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StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.


Because it's dark and edgy.  And therefore cool.

I mean it gets better:  No Legion means Rannoch cannot end in peace

Mordin Not Loyal means Eve dies.  And without Wrex that means Wreav is running the show on Tuchanka (on teh plus side, this does mean you can screw over Wreav and keep Mordin alive)

Oh, and Miranda not loyal means the gets Kai Lenged to death.  Unavoidably.

#1290
MassivelyEffective0730

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BW screwed up terribly with the loyalty system past ME2.

Beyond romance and adding maybe a bit more WA (which still doesn't add much tbh), I don't even know why squad loyalty past ME2 should matter unless it really affects the story.

#1291
Karlone123

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Nightwriter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

I am beginning to think game-to-game story continuity is a lost cause.


If a game like Mass Effect 3 struggles to maintain a simple storyline then yes, it is a lost cause. Dragon Age probably knows this.

#1292
Nightwriter

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Karlone123 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

I am beginning to think game-to-game story continuity is a lost cause.


If a game like Mass Effect 3 struggles to maintain a simple storyline then yes, it is a lost cause. Dragon Age probably knows this.

Dragon Age has the advantage of introducing a new protagonist in each game. Continuity is all the more important when we are following a single character across a three installment journey. It's more important that our choices have good continuity, that the story has good continuity, and that our character's personality and opinions have good continuity. The size of our personal investment is proportional to the size of the saga.

So, continuity in games like Dragon Age -- I'm pretty tolerant. Continuity in games like Mass Effect? I'm feeling more and more pessimistic about it.

#1293
Karlone123

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Nightwriter wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.

And yes, the default matters. I think it sets the general tone for the team write around. It doesn't matter all that much what you import - whatever you add to it is fluff and superficial, and doesn't change the general tone. No matter how epic and triumphant you felt at the end of that game, and how much you bonded with your team, you have to live up to this piece of sh*t version of Shepard instead, who didn't do a good thing for anyone. And whose ME2 team is virtually nonexistent. If this is how imports and continuity are going to work with Bioware, I'm better off with a linear third person shooter like Uncharted. No choices, but the story ends up better for it.

I am beginning to think game-to-game story continuity is a lost cause.


If a game like Mass Effect 3 struggles to maintain a simple storyline then yes, it is a lost cause. Dragon Age probably knows this.

Dragon Age has the advantage of introducing a new protagonist in each game. Continuity is all the more important when we are following a single character across a three installment journey. It's more important that our choices have good continuity, that the story has good continuity, and that our character's personality and opinions have good continuity. The size of our personal investment is proportional to the size of the saga.

So, continuity in games like Dragon Age -- I'm pretty tolerant. Continuity in games like Mass Effect? I'm feeling more and more pessimistic about it.


Shepard's own continuity was not all that good, due to autodialogue that made it more easier for writers to work with but they did not take onboard on that would not reflect on how Shepard could express himself in previous installments, making Shepard feel emotional in scenes we would not want him to or having an opinion that could contradict with his past opinions. In a sense we were limited on how much we could express Shepard and became more predefined, again the writers did not take this onboard.

The story contunuity was not that good either due to the story change. My own opinions is that the ideas behind the story were poor and ill-conceived, trying too hard to create a sad scene such as the child dying on Earth which they tried too hard with to get a reaction out of us. Going more by what is cool and appealing rather than something that is creative that can create its own appeal. ME3 may be an a enjoyable game for some but it failed to deliver in terms of a satisfying game, but I can understand if they take in positive feedback more. No one likes hearing someone did not enjoy their work. Even the ME3 own continuity was a struggle as certain plotarcs were not resolved properly.

And as you said about our personal investment in the story continuity, it is hard to maintain an invested interest in the story aspects as it get completely changed and then we are left feeling alienated. I know I have written a lot but I have deep feelings on how ME3 was treated by the writers. It feels like they took a more homogenous path that a lot of game developers do letting off the impression they are more interested in making easy money than expressing the "artistic intregity" they phrased famous. Which is one of the reasons I have a certain dislike for some of Mac Walters' work.
 

Modifié par Karlone123, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:24 .


#1294
AlanC9

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StreetMagic wrote...

I think I'll just add how lame and contrived the default state is too. I can't wrap my head around how it even worked. Mordin, Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob all survive -- except they're all unloyal too. Legion and Grunt never activated. Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara were never recruited. Thane and Jack die in the mission (probably from no upgrades, I assuming). Wtf? How does this even play out? And how did Mordin and Tali survive especially? They're the lowest rated when it comes to health. And there's no Grunt and Zaeed to protect them. Just an unloyal Garrus. And how is any of this a good template for the following story? If someone actually made a movie based on this ME2 playthrough, it'd get a "Razzie" award. No wonder why Shepard is a miserable bastard in ME3.


I was never a huge fan of the SM's  HtL mechanic in the first place. Are Mordin and Tali really all that squishy? (Personally, I would have made deaths there random.) But yeah, the default state should have been achievable in ME2, so Mordin and Tali should have been dead. I guess Jack and Thane were in the final squad and died in the battle. That's a pretty sensible pick for the last battle on a low difficulty level, since Jack can knock enemies off the platfom and Thane can hit barriers.

I also don't buy your causality argument. Why do you think the tone didn't come first?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:24 .


#1295
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

I was never a huge fan of the SM's  HtL mechanic in the first place. Are Mordin and Tali really all that squishy? (Personally, I would have made deaths there random.) But yeah, the default state should have been achievable in ME2, so Mordin and Tali should have been dead. I guess Jack and Thane were in the final squad and died in the battle. That's a pretty sensible pick for the last battle on a low difficulty level, since Jack can knock enemies off the platfom and Thane can hit barriers.

I also don't buy your causality argument. Why do you think the tone didn't come first?


Yes.  Jack, Tali, Kasumi, and Mordin are the squishies characters in Hold the Line.  I believe Mordin and Tali are #1 and #2 in the order to be killed if the score isn't high enough.

Garrus, Zaeed, and Grunt are the hardest to kill, and if loyal, can even offset the squishiness of the others

Thane, Samara, Miranda, Jacob, and Legion fall in the middle of the road 

#1296
Nightwriter

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Karlone123 wrote...

Shepard's own continuity was not all that good, due to autodialogue that made it more easier for writers to work with but they did not take onboard on that would not reflect on how Shepard could express himself in previous installments, making Shepard feel emotional in scenes we would not want him to or having an opinion that could contradict with his past opinions. In a sense we were limited on how much we could express Shepard and became more predefined, again the writers did not take this onboard.

The story contunuity was not that good either due to the story change. My own opinions is that the ideas behind the story were poor and ill-conceived, trying too hard to create a sad scene such as the child dying on Earth which they tried too hard with to get a reaction out of us. Going more by what is cool and appealing rather than something that is creative that can create its own appeal. ME3 may be an a enjoyable game for some but it failed to deliver in terms of a satisfying game, but I can understand if they take in positive feedback more. No one likes hearing someone did not enjoy their work. Even the ME3 own continuity was a struggle as certain plotarcs were not resolved properly.

And as you said about our personal investment in the story continuity, it is hard to maintain an invested interest in the story aspects as it get completely changed and then we are left feeling alienated. I know I have written a lot but I have deep feelings on how ME3 was treated by the writers. It feels like they took a more homogenous path that a lot of game developers do letting off the impression they are more interested in making easy money than expressing the "artistic intregity" they phrased famous. Which is one of the reasons I have a certain dislike for some of Mac Walters' work.

The kicker is that because Mass Effect was the first to really do this I can't know if these problems were caused by poor planning on BioWare's part or if they are inherent hazards that will always be there in installment games, making the concept a bit of a write-off.

#1297
dreamgazer

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I like how Thane is apparently the easiest to kill in the Long Walk, because reasons.

Image IPB

#1298
Iakus

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Nightwriter wrote...
The kicker is that because Mass Effect was the first to really do this I can't know if these problems were caused by poor planning on BioWare's part or if they are inherent hazards that will always be there in installment games, making the concept a bit of a write-off.


Well at this point it's no secret that there was little, if any, actual planning being done.  Dosen't help that almost all the original writers and artists of ME1 were gone by ME3

#1299
GreyLycanTrope

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Nightwriter wrote...
The kicker is that because Mass Effect was the first to really do this I can't know if these problems were caused by poor planning on BioWare's part or if they are inherent hazards that will always be there in installment games, making the concept a bit of a write-off.

Little bit from column A and B seems to be case. It is difficult to maintain a concept when the writing team is shifting from installment to installment, the only chance of getting past this is having at least a solid frame work or foundations for each team to build on but the lack of planning is blatantly apparent.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:50 .


#1300
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...


Yes.  Jack, Tali, Kasumi, and Mordin are the squishies characters in Hold the Line.  I believe Mordin and Tali are #1 and #2 in the order to be killed if the score isn't high enough.

Garrus, Zaeed, and Grunt are the hardest to kill, and if loyal, can even offset the squishiness of the others

Thane, Samara, Miranda, Jacob, and Legion fall in the middle of the road 


I forgot to specify. Are they squishy in normal gameplay? My impression is no.