1814 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...


I forgot to specify. Are they squishy in normal gameplay? My impression is no.

Eh, honestly I don't recall either.

I do remember that Grunt, Jacob, and Tali had defensive special abilities.  And Miranda had a squad-based ability that raised everyone's health and damage.  That's all.

[Nightwriter]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
The kicker is that because Mass Effect was the first to really do this I can't know if these problems were caused by poor planning on BioWare's part or if they are inherent hazards that will always be there in installment games, making the concept a bit of a write-off.

Little bit from column A and B seems to be case. It is difficult to maintain a concept when the writing team is shifting from installment to installment, the only chance of getting past this is having at least a solid frame work or foundations for each team to build on but the lack of planning is blatantly apparent.

I really wonder how much of my grief with the ME series was caused by writers getting reassigned or writers leaving.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

I really wonder how much of my grief with the ME series was caused by writers getting reassigned or writers leaving.

It's what I think the DA team is doing right in moving around and having a new protagonist with each game.  The changes in writing styles are focus aren't as jarring.  I mean, it's a new story, of course it will feel different!

[GreyLycanTrope]

After reading over some of his ideas I can trace most of my issues to the departure of Christ L'Etoile tbh.

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

After reading over some of his ideas I can trace most of my issues to the departure of Christ L'Etoile tbh.

He really was one of the ME teams better writers

[CronoDragoon]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Being DLC is no excuse, particularly when DLC characters are more interesting than some stock characters. As for story importance you know as well as I do how arbitrary that is. The writers dictated her importance to the story (or lack thereof) just as they dictated her shoddy appearance. Just as they also dictated I might add, the overinflated appearance and importance of other characters. Writer favoritism is the cause of decreased signficance and therefore screentime, not the other way around.

The writers dictated her importance to the story from the very beginning as virtually non-existent, yes, and this was indeed partially because she was DLC. I don't know why you're complaining about this: it's not like BW ever hinted she'd become important, and it's not like anything she does during her time in ME2 IS important. And she's not more interesting than stock characters but tastes YMMV etc.

Please. With all the imagery and feel-good tone at the end of the peace ending, you'd almost think it's a happily ever after scenario if you didn't realize there was also a galactic war to win. Besides I don't seem to recall her saying anything overly racist about the geth before. Certainly she mistrusts and even despises them for the predicament the quarians are in. But I don't recall her saying they're just suborganic machines or anything like that before. So without that you're left with "I used to hate you because you took away my home but now we're cool", which is again, every other quarian except for Xen. And Koris I guess.

So what other named quarians followed Tali's character arc? Tali's racism isn't overt, you're right, but before she meets Legion she is all about going to war with them and taking her homeland back. Notice how buddy buddy she and Gherrel are in her loyalty mission.

They're not. But by that token then, why is Jacob less worthy of Spectre or squad status and associated screentime? Do you see how all things being equal, the only explanation remaining is bull**** favoritism?

Whose favoritism? BW's? Is fan desire a valid reason or not? The thrust of your argument seems to be that fans of characters wanted more and should have gotten it, but the sad fact is that Jacob is not very well liked compared to the VS. So going by your own terms, you have an answer which should be perfectly acceptable to you, given a project where some will be squadmates and some won't.

The VS doesn't become tied to Cerberus. ****ing and whining about how they used to trust you and "you've totally changed man!" while doing ****all to address the ongoing problems does not a tie make. By that logic, Anderson is also tied to Cerberus because he also disapproves of your association.

Yes it does, and now you're just being argumentative. What is the source of the initial and on-going distrust between the VS and Shepard? Is it Shepard working with Cerberus and eventually what Cerberus might have done to him? Yes? Then they are tied to the Cerberus plot, which is obvious once the coup happens. You think it's a coincidence that the confrontation with the VS happens during a Cerberus coup? Come on. And you're right, Anderson IS tied to the Cerberus plot. The final confrontation is between Shepard, Anderson, and TIM.

Liara has no ties to the Reapers

ME1?

and any speculations she might've had on the Protheans get hilariously eclipsed and roflstomped by Javik. Add to that the most outrageous example of artificial promotion to date and you've got a character that at best should've fit Hackett's role but with benefits.

It's not an artificial promotion if she kills the Broker and takes his place. Whether or not this promotion was effectively used in ME3 is a different question. Liara is also the one who uses her Broker info to find the Crucible, the weapon they will then go on to destroy the Reapers with. So yeah, she's tied to the main plot. Sorry.

The ME1 squad had zero closer ties to the main plot, zero issues that just begged further exploring and zero innate superiority to the ME2 squad. The bottom line is you had a pool of sixteen equal squadmates to choose from and Bioware clearly pampered six of them, to varying degrees, while the others were at best neglected. The fact that some of the character writers made the best of the limitations they were given and got the most of a character's appearance does not change the fact that those limitations were unfairly stringent.

The ME1 squad is more relevant to either the Reaper plot or a series-spanning arc (Cerberus, Rannoch, genophage) than many ME2 characters, with the exceptions of Miranda, Jack, and Jacob. Miranda I agree needed more in ME3. Jack is a topic I'd be open to exploring, since the VS's mistrust could possibly be fitted into content for Jack. As for Jacob: if you're just going to use fan preference as a reason for ME2 characters getting more screentime, then the preferences of other fans is an equally valid reason for not doing it.

tl;dr: Yeah, it's okay to have your preferences pissed on. Such is life with something that's not your story and never was. The viable argument for more screentime is whether it would have improved the story, not whether you wanted it because you liked the characters. Because if you go down that route, you aren't going to like the results. Fairness is counting every fan's opinion equally. In such a case the most popular characters get the nod.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 04 janvier 2014 - 05:42 .

[txgoldrush]

Lizardviking wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, in LotSB, Liara explains that the Broker had info on data from the Protheans that they haven't used yet.

Nevermind Liara being the Shadow Broker also meant three more things with the overall narrative.

1. Removal of an antagonist that allied with Reaper forces
2. A way for Cerberus to follow Liara and thus also discover the Crucible for their own plans.
3. Character development for Liara

All these 3 things could have been accomplished without having Liara becoming the SB. They could easily have had the SB ship by the end of LOTSB start a self-destruct countdown when the broker is killed, Liara and Shepard tries to mine as much data as possible from the computers before grabbing Feron and getting out of there.

All 3 parts would be fullfilled without giving Liara a major role.

txgoldrush wrote...
However her role as the Broker is diminished after finding the Crucible as her network gets destroyed by the Reapers, Nevermind Cerberus compromising her.

I do not care about what justifications they try to use to why nothing comes out of her subplot. Try looking at it from a storytelling perspective.

Why give a character a new major role that comes with lots of powers and resources, when the only thing that role is used for could just as easily have been fufilled by the characters previous role? If the only thing the SB subplot was going to be used for was finding a Prothean device, why not just have Liara stay an archeologist throughout ME2?

txgoldrush wrote...
They have only one lock in romance scene for Liara, what are you talking about? Her romance arc isn't locked until meeting with her on the Presidum in the second act. The time capsule scene can work as both a friend and a romance. No real friend zoning here.

There is the first one after Mars/Citadel prologue, then there is the Presidium chat as you mentioned.

My problem with the capsule scene is the end with "You have been a good friend to me", IMO a bette solution to a romancing Shepard would have been "You have been good to me", it is a line that says the same thing without the unintentional friendzoning.

You missed something.

In ME3, Liara alludes to the Shadow Broker resources helping her search for the way to stop the Reapers, the crucible, and that's why she was in contact with Hackett.

And once again, by being the Shadow Broker, Cerberus can track her far more easily. They are the ones that gave Shepard the data to give to Liara to take down the Broker. Its no diabolus ex machina that Cerberus tracked her down.

And being the Broker also does help with organizing the Crucible Project. So being the Broker does advance the story. He previous role doesn't give her experience in the field of galactic politics, quite the other way around. With her being the Broker, she can organize people more effectively, all while being under the guise of the Shadow Broker.

The dialogue after the Mars/Citadel missions does not lock the romance. It just allows players to quit the Liara romance without drama.

And really, still, the time capsule scene can work both ways. Hell, I argue that Liara and Shepard really only become true lovers near the end of ME3, and that the relationship was still developing before that.

[CrutchCricket]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Or fan-favoritism. Or simply an overall plot relevance. The ME2 characters who have the most screen time are also typically the ones most tied into some sub-plot of the story: Legion, Miranda, Mordin, although he's ME1 Wrex as well, etc.

Fan favoritism in the case of Garrus and Tali maybe, with that whole outcry that Bioware let slip affected their decision for squad status in ME3. But that doesn't explain Liara or the VS, or Wrex in Citadel.

As for the ME2 squad, I know fan outcry resulted in some last minute patching for Miranda's godawful appearance, namely a survival scenario and some email that imply she's doing more than just obsessing over her sister. But that's putting a bandaid on an amputation as far as a good chunk of her fanbase is concerned. But still the difference is clear: most ME1 squadmates just walked on ME3 while fans of ME2 had to bend over backwards to even get crumbs.

I buy into the whole "quality over quantity" bit, but even I have trouble thinking that most fans would think Zaeed/Kasumi would receive as much attention, compared to any other companions. It's not like they were even done in the style of Javik, where they're completely integrated into the main game. After their loyalty mission is completed, it's dreadfully obvious that the content available for both characters is extremely cheap.

Uhh no, both Kasumi and Zaeed have hub-specific lines just like every other squad mate in ME2. Kasumi will also comment on LIs and miscellaneous crew. The only thing missing is dialog trees. But then again all Garrus ever says past a certain point is that he needs to do calibrations. So no, that's not an excuse. Javik may be more innately tied into the story but as far as ME2 goes there is no significant gap between Kasumi/Zaeed and other squadmates, especially the optional ones.

[txgoldrush]

CrutchCricket wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Or fan-favoritism. Or simply an overall plot relevance. The ME2 characters who have the most screen time are also typically the ones most tied into some sub-plot of the story: Legion, Miranda, Mordin, although he's ME1 Wrex as well, etc.

Fan favoritism in the case of Garrus and Tali maybe, with that whole outcry that Bioware let slip affected their decision for squad status in ME3. But that doesn't explain Liara or the VS, or Wrex in Citadel.

As for the ME2 squad, I know fan outcry resulted in some last minute patching for Miranda's godawful appearance, namely a survival scenario and some email that imply she's doing more than just obsessing over her sister. But that's putting a bandaid on an amputation as far as a good chunk of her fanbase is concerned. But still the difference is clear: most ME1 squadmates just walked on ME3 while fans of ME2 had to bend over backwards to even get crumbs.

I buy into the whole "quality over quantity" bit, but even I have trouble thinking that most fans would think Zaeed/Kasumi would receive as much attention, compared to any other companions. It's not like they were even done in the style of Javik, where they're completely integrated into the main game. After their loyalty mission is completed, it's dreadfully obvious that the content available for both characters is extremely cheap.

Uhh no, both Kasumi and Zaeed have hub-specific lines just like every other squad mate in ME2. Kasumi will also comment on LIs and miscellaneous crew. The only thing missing is dialog trees. But then again all Garrus ever says past a certain point is that he needs to do calibrations. So no, that's not an excuse. Javik may be more innately tied into the story but as far as ME2 goes there is no significant gap between Kasumi/Zaeed and other squadmates, especially the optional ones.

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast. Of course they will be squadmates, or play major plot roles. Most ME2 characters are not major to the plot, that's why they have lesser roles. Only Mordin, Miranda, and Legion are important to the grand storyline, so they got bigger roles.

Nevermind Liara is the deuteragonist of the entire series, of course she would be a squadmate in ME3.

And Miranda got significant time in ME3, four conversations outside her plot required mission.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 04 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .

[CrutchCricket]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The writers dictated her importance to the story from the very beginning as virtually non-existent, yes, and this was indeed partially because she was DLC. I don't know why you're complaining about this: it's not like BW ever hinted she'd become important, and it's not like anything she does during her time in ME2 IS important. And she's not more interesting than stock characters but tastes YMMV etc.

Which is a copout excuse. I'm not claiming Bioware broke any promises here, I'm saying, they've clearly padded characters' importance before, why not here?

So what other named quarians followed Tali's character arc? Tali's racism isn't overt, you're right, but before she meets Legion she is all about going to war with them and taking her homeland back. Notice how buddy buddy she and Gherrel are in her loyalty mission.

Tali isn't unique, she's an example of what all (or most quarians) go through during this arc. Unless you're implying the peace will be colored by quarian passive-aggressiveness. By contrast Legion is unique from other geth both in design and in development. And his replacement is more of a contrast than Raan is to Tali.

Whose favoritism? BW's? Is fan desire a valid reason or not? The thrust of your argument seems to be that fans of characters wanted more and should have gotten it, but the sad fact is that Jacob is not very well liked compared to the VS. So going by your own terms, you have an answer which should be perfectly acceptable to you, given a project where some will be squadmates and some won't.

Well if Jacob isn't well liked that'd be fine... until you consider that ME2 characters that are just as well liked still got far less. In essence I suppose that means fan desire is valid... when it's in line with Bioware's plans. Not that I should be surprised, given the BSN these days.

Yes it does, and now you're just being argumentative. What is the source of the initial and on-going distrust between the VS and Shepard? Is it Shepard working with Cerberus and eventually what Cerberus might have done to him? Yes? Then they are tied to the Cerberus plot, which is obvious once the coup happens. You think it's a coincidence that the confrontation with the VS happens during a Cerberus coup? Come on. And you're right, Anderson IS tied to the Cerberus plot. The final confrontation is between Shepard, Anderson, and TIM.

Right, so your logic is that everyone that distrust/objects to Cerberus is "tied in" to the Cerberus plot? Great. That's just about everyone else.

ME1?

Care to elaborate?

It's not an artificial promotion if she kills the Broker and takes his place. Whether or not this promotion was effectively used in ME3 is a different question. Liara is also the one who uses her Broker info to find the Crucible, the weapon they will then go on to destroy the Reapers with. So yeah, she's tied to the main plot. Sorry.

No the artificial promotion happened earlier when she went from naive, innocent teenager to ruthless shadowy super-spy. That she then goes on to find and kill the biggest ruthless shadowy super-spy is also unbelievable, even with Shepard's help but at that point it's small potatoes. And leaving aside the stupidity of finding the deus ex machina superweapon right under our noses all along and the idiocy of the biggest ruthless shadowy super-spy herself crawling through vents to escape two basic mooks... well the inconsistencies speak for themselves. Liara may have been thrust in the path of the main plot, but the circumstances in which it was done argue against squad status, not for.

The ME1 squad is more relevant to either the Reaper plot or a series-spanning arc (Cerberus, Rannoch, genophage) than many ME2 characters

No they're really not and you haven't made much progress in explaining why you think they are.

The viable argument for more screentime is whether it would have improved the story, not whether you wanted it because you liked the characters. Because if you go down that route, you aren't going to like the results. Fairness is counting every fan's opinion equally. In such a case the most popular characters get the nod.

Any character can improve the story because any character can be made more/less important to it. Yes some characters' paths align naturally (Tali, Legion, Mordin, Wrex, Miranda) but the rest are arbitrary. An example I've heard being discussed from the leaked script- the Hanar Diplomat sidequest was initally a bigger mission to Kahje, one that would've naturally involved Thane but also Kasumi. Thane fits because of pre-existing connections, but Kasumi was simply written in and a connection created to justify it.

The point here is simple: Story can dictate characters and characters can also dictate story. And in a story where events are written, sometimes against plausibility just to boost characters and get them closer to the main plot, other characters having fewer connections is no excuse for their sidelining.

[CrutchCricket]

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Who decided that, and more importantly, according to what criteria?

You say core, I say favoritism. I seem to be the more accurate of the two.

[David7204]

You're not accurate at all.

Characters are not 'owed' screentime.

[von uber]

Based on gameplay / screentime I think Garrus, Tali, and Liara are the core, with a second tier of Mordin, Legion, the VS and Wrex. Mainly because they represent the main other protaganist races, and Wrex can't appear as he gets bumped upstairs (with Grunt taking the Krogan place in ME2).
But that's just my own observation.

[Mr.House]

CrutchCricket wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Who decided that, and more importantly, according to what criteria?

You say core, I say favoritism. I seem to be the more accurate of the two.

In a trilogy characters that where in the first chapter and played a big part are more important by default then any new characters later.  Really, it sounds like you're just mad because your new shiny crew that was in ME2 was throwen to the side in ME3 when guess what? You should have saw that coming as they where made for a suicide mission with no afterthought with Garrus and Tali being throwen in there because Bioware didn't want to totatly ****** off the ME fans.

[CrutchCricket]

Mr.House wrote...
In a trilogy characters that where in the first chapter and played a big part are more important by default then any new characters later.

Really? Since when and again according to what criteria?

Since you're the expert, perhaps you'd care to list a few examples?

Really, it sounds like you're just mad because your new shiny crew that was in ME2 was throwen to the side in ME3 when guess what? You should have saw that coming as they where made for a suicide mission with no afterthought with Garrus and Tali being throwen in there because Bioware didn't want to totatly ****** off the ME fans.

Well gee glad some fans are so important. I guess I'm just not special enough to be so considered.

What's done is done and I guess we know how Bioware does things. But to see other fans condoning this kind of double standard bull****... I guess Bioware learnt plenty after all. They learned what they could get away with.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 04 janvier 2014 - 09:54 .

[Mr.House]

Bioware has been doing this stuff since ever, if you never noticed that's your fault. After Liara, Ash and Kaidan fans where screwed in ME2, you and many others who continue to whine should have known the characters introduced in ME2 would be thrown to the curve, more so when they where made to be disposed of, along with two being dlc.

Also examples? Just read/watch trilogies, you should be well informed of this stuff instead of whining.

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Take a sip everybody

There is no CORE cast

[ImaginaryMatter]

Mr.House wrote...

Also examples? Just read/watch trilogies, you should be well informed of this stuff instead of whining.

The Mass Effect series followed standard trilogy conventions?

[spirosz]

CrutchCricket wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Who decided that, and more importantly, according to what criteria?

You say core, I say favoritism. I seem to be the more accurate of the two.

[CrutchCricket]

Mr.House wrote...

Bioware has been doing this stuff since ever, if you never noticed that's your fault. After Liara, Ash and Kaidan fans where screwed in ME2, you and many others who continue to whine should have known the characters introduced in ME2 would be thrown to the curve, more so when they where made to be disposed of, along with two being dlc.

Also examples? Just read/watch trilogies, you should be well informed of this stuff instead of whining.

Liara fans don't know the meaning of the word "screwed". As for the VS the content kinda sucked in ME3 as well so I'm a bit more sympathetic.

Well, I wish you no harm but if you ever see a guy wind back and slug you in the face I hope you don't complain. Because, hell you should've seen it coming right?

So, no examples then. Gotcha.

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Take a sip everybody

There is no CORE cast

You mean Shepard, Liara, EDI, Joker, Anderson, Garrus, Tali, and the Virmire Survivor aren't core characters?

Stop being ignorant.

Then you are going to tell me that Luke, Han, Leia, Vader, and Chewie aren't core Star Wars characters

Modifié par txgoldrush, 04 janvier 2014 - 10:12 .

[CroGamer002]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Liara fans don't know the meaning of the word "screwed".

Well there was that LotSB romance import bug with Liara.



Aaaaaaaaaaaand, that's it from them being screwed.

[Mr.House]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Bioware has been doing this stuff since ever, if you never noticed that's your fault. After Liara, Ash and Kaidan fans where screwed in ME2, you and many others who continue to whine should have known the characters introduced in ME2 would be thrown to the curve, more so when they where made to be disposed of, along with two being dlc.

Also examples? Just read/watch trilogies, you should be well informed of this stuff instead of whining.

Liara fans don't know the meaning of the word "screwed". As for the VS the content kinda sucked in ME3 as well so I'm a bit more sympathetic.

Well, I wish you no harm but if you ever see a guy wind back and slug you in the face I hope you don't complain. Because, hell you should've seen it coming right?

So, no examples then. Gotcha.

Kaidan content was fine in ME3 and Liara fans where not screwed? Really? So getting a comic that destroyed her whole character, content that made the VS look like gold then having to pay $8 to get content that should have been in the game to begin with then in ME3 with many flag bugs, her "date" not being finished thus anyone who romanced her is called a dear friend in the middle of the game. Ya Liara fans where not screwed. You're just bias who cleary has not watched/read other trilogies.

I'll just give you one series. Lord of the Rings.

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 janvier 2014 - 10:14 .

[spirosz]

txgoldrush wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Take a sip everybody

There is no CORE cast

You mean Shepard, Liara, EDI, Joker, Anderson, Garrus, Tali, and the Virmire Survivor aren't core characters?

Stop being ignorant.

Then you are going to tell me that Luke, Han, Leia, Vader, and Chewie aren't core Star Wars characters

Yes, they aren't core characters. It's Luke's story.  If you're speaking in volumes of Star Wars - there are many that influence the tales written to influence the universe. 

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You aren't getting it.

The ME1 characters are the CORE of the cast.

Take a sip everybody

There is no CORE cast

You mean Shepard, Liara, EDI, Joker, Anderson, Garrus, Tali, and the Virmire Survivor aren't core characters?

Stop being ignorant.

Then you are going to tell me that Luke, Han, Leia, Vader, and Chewie aren't core Star Wars characters

>implying that they are the only characters in Star Wars

Who's being ignorant now

And no they aren't just the core characters whether you like them or not the ME2 characters also count as the core characters