1814 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Liara is actually very unimportant when all is said and done, she has no real purpose after Mars, her status as the SB is virtually ignored, and in combat she is easily surpassed by more durable squadmates.

She has no thematic importance whatsoever, and she is one upped constantly by a damned lab rat. Why on earth is she wasting oxygen on the Normandy

There you go again.

she has no real purpose after Mars - wrong, the mission on Thessia proves otherwise.

No it doesn't. She's in an emotional and whiny state. I'm practically forced to take her there. She does nothing except get wangsty that her Asari aren't all they're cracked up to be. Really, what does she do on that mission that's worthwhile?

her status as the SB is virtually ignored - wrong, its addressed that her power has been dimished. It is factually incorrect to say it is unknown.

It's made pretty secondary in the entire game. In fact, you'd think that with having to run and coordinate such a big intelligence operation, she wouldn't have the time or capability to serve on the Normandy in a role leads to a lot of significant deviation from monitoring her network, or risking said network on the Normandy while it flies into the thick of the invasion.

in combat she is easily surpassed by more durable squadmates - and yet player data for Bioware list her as one of the most used squadmates. Also has nothing to do with the story.

That doesn't mean she is actually more powerful or more durable. Just more popular.

Or does popularity dictate longevity?

She has no thematic importance whatsoever - so you ignored the theme on how a past race helps a future one, the entire beacon scene

You mean the theme that Javik completely subverts? The beacon scene where she's stumbling backwards in denial of Asari ascendance interspersed with wangsty blubbering about how this War is bad now that it affects her people?

Once again, you are voicing your opinion through falsehoods. There you go again. Just because you hate liara does not mean you can spin the facts to create an image of her uselessness.

There you go again. There you go again. You've been watching a lot of Ronald Reagan political debates haven't you.

I'm going to say that you dismiss everything you don't agree with. Yeah, I don't like her guts, and yes, I do legitimately question her role in the game and the plot. 

She's there because the writers wanted her to be there. They didn't bother ensuring her material was quality. They put her there to ensure she was open for the player. Because BW wanted her to be there for the player.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
That looks like Naruto. Don't remember the guy's name, just that he was a wangsty little **** who needed to get his ass beat and learn how to man up.

He still needs that beating.

I'd be more than happy to give it to him IRL.

[txgoldrush]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

You are moving the goalposts...they established their relationships in ME1, did they not? They would recognize eachother in ME2 if you take Tali or Garrus to see VS, Liara, and Wrex, do they not?

The relationships between ME2 characters is far less defined than ME1, so that is a huge reason why they are in ME3 and Wrex joins the Citadel mission.

Garrus and Tali do the same thing with ME2 characters in ME3 as well (with the same level of acknowledgement as ME1) , so the ME1 and ME2 squads are pretty equal on that front. This is subjective but there seems to be more interaction between the ME2 squadmates in ME3, than with ME1 sqadmates in ME2.

What do you mean less defined in ME2 than ME1? The mission banter is the same. And ME2 implies that the squadmates get out of there rooms and talk to each other, same as in ME1. In both cases squadmates rarely move from there spots and only gather to talk to each other during cutscenes.

I'm not trying to move the goalposts but you keep implying that there is a greater connection between the ME1 squad and the ME2 squad when there isn't. On the Normandys people don't move and talk to each other but they say they do, the crew only gathers during cutscenes after missions, they get the same level of acknowledgement in the proceeding games, the banter is the same during missions, no one remains in contact with each other as soon as Shepard leaves, etc. The only thing that ME1 vs ME2 is that the characters say the others' name sometimes on the Citadel elevators.

You are moving the goalposts yet again. Yes while I did say that ME1 characters would recognize eachother in ME2, I also said that in between party members, the relationship between the ME1 crew is more defined than the ME2 squad.

And no, they say more than just their names on elevators, they talk about their philosophies and lives. You are trying to devalue to prove your point. That's also stating your opinion based on falsehood.

The only connection in ME2 is Miranda and Jacob knowing eachother, and the two conflicts aboard the Normandy. Other than that, intersquad dialogue is sorely lacking.

[themikefest]

txgoldrush wrote...

themikefest wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/Deuteragonist

post whatever link you want if it makes you feel better. She is still garbage. ME1 she didn't need to be a squadmate to tell you about Ilos. She didn't need to be a squadmate to become the shadow broker. And in Me3 she doesn't need to be a squadmate to help find resources for the crucible or keep track of her agents.

But the fact is Bioware used her to be the most important squadmate. Stop ignoring this.

You want to ignore the clear fact that Bioware makes her an important character just because you do not like the character.

Your right. I don't like her. If she is the most important squadmate(in your opinion) then they should've made the trilogy to where you have to use her on every single mission.

[KaiserShep]

txgoldrush wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I have. And I know Morrigan can be dismissed. However, since her role is only during the ending, I'm guessing, and entirely optional, it's a weak example.

and that's what weakens DAO, no one is important outside Allistair and Loghain,

I strongly disagree. In what way is DAO weakened by Loghain and Alistair's significance to the plot compared to the rest? Why should the other members of the team, outside of our Warden, be as important as they are in the story? 

[txgoldrush]

Steelcan wrote...

@txgoldrush, call me up when you can do something more than just make up excuses that everyone knows to be false.

and you aren't. You are the one spouting false "facts" about Liara in order to prove your point.

Hell, Liara is far from my favorite character, but I am not going to ignore that she is the second most important character in the series.

[CynicalShep]

KaiserShep wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I have. And I know Morrigan can be dismissed. However, since her role is only during the ending, I'm guessing, and entirely optional, it's a weak example.

and that's what weakens DAO, no one is important outside Allistair and Loghain,

I strongly disagree. In what way is DAO weakened by Loghain and Alistair's significance to the plot compared to the rest? Why should the other members of the team, outside of our Warden, be as important as they are in the story? 

If DAO had Tali and Liara it would be a great game.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@txgoldrush, call me up when you can do something more than just make up excuses that everyone knows to be false.

and you aren't. You are the one spouting false "facts" about Liara in order to prove your point.

And what facts have you provided?

Hell, Liara is far from my favorite character, but I am not going to ignore that she is the second most important character in the series.

For no reason other than she's a blue alien chick that has a mary-sue style of writing?

[Br3admax]

Invisible Man wrote...

I have to say garrus is more of a core character than javik, because javik is dlc content... I played through ME3 twice before I got the from ashes dlc. and perplexing enough, because I'd have to call javik a vital character, for without that dlc you don't get a vanguard, unless shepard happened to be one.

Yeah, being dlc doeesn't stop Javik from being a major source of lore, and excellent leadership skills, and an all around better characer. Garrus is there simply to be Shepard's friend. The game would be the same with or without him. Having played the game without Garrus, he doesn't change anything. Playing the game without Javik changes just about everything. 

[txgoldrush]

themikefest wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

themikefest wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/Deuteragonist

post whatever link you want if it makes you feel better. She is still garbage. ME1 she didn't need to be a squadmate to tell you about Ilos. She didn't need to be a squadmate to become the shadow broker. And in Me3 she doesn't need to be a squadmate to help find resources for the crucible or keep track of her agents.

But the fact is Bioware used her to be the most important squadmate. Stop ignoring this.

You want to ignore the clear fact that Bioware makes her an important character just because you do not like the character.

Your right. I don't like her. If she is the most important squadmate(in your opinion) then they should've made the trilogy to where you have to use her on every single mission.

Its not opinion, its fact.

Bioware lets you play missions without the dueteragonist, but that doesn't mean they aren't the deuteragonist. Bastila, Dawn Star, Alistair, Varric, Imoen, etc.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 05 janvier 2014 - 01:12 .

[Steelcan]

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@txgoldrush, call me up when you can do something more than just make up excuses that everyone knows to be false.

and you aren't. You are the one spouting false "facts" about Liara in order to prove your point.

Hell, Liara is far from my favorite character, but I am not going to ignore that she is the second most important character in the series.

I am seriously starting to question whether you are indeed aware of what a fact is.  Based on your recent posts you have given no such indication that you are anymore than a trained lab rat who can type out f-a-c-t and cram it in with other words.

please do go waste someone else's time, we all see just how incresibly foolish you are.

Modifié par Steelcan, 05 janvier 2014 - 01:16 .

[txgoldrush]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@txgoldrush, call me up when you can do something more than just make up excuses that everyone knows to be false.

and you aren't. You are the one spouting false "facts" about Liara in order to prove your point.

And what facts have you provided?

Hell, Liara is far from my favorite character, but I am not going to ignore that she is the second most important character in the series.

For no reason other than she's a blue alien chick that has a mary-sue style of writing?

That she is important in the plot not only in ME3, but the entire series.

Or that not only is  she important to the plot but key at bridging between games.

Once again, you don't like her, fine.....but stop being ignorant to prove your point.

[txgoldrush]

Steelcan wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@txgoldrush, call me up when you can do something more than just make up excuses that everyone knows to be false.

and you aren't. You are the one spouting false "facts" about Liara in order to prove your point.

Hell, Liara is far from my favorite character, but I am not going to ignore that she is the second most important character in the series.

I am seriously starting to question whether you are indeed aware of what a tact is.  Based on your recebt posts you have given no such indication that you are anymore than a trained lab rat who can type out f-
a-c-t and cram it in with other words.

please do go waste someone else's time, we all see just how incresibly foolish you are.

And you did not make false claims in your argument regarding Liara? That I answered several posts ago.

You are the embodiment of the problem many bashers of ME3 have. You ignore clear evidence against you to bash ME3.

[ImaginaryMatter]

[quote]txgoldrush wrote...

You are moving the goalposts yet again. Yes while I did say that ME1 characters would recognize eachother in ME2, I also said that in between party members, the relationship between the ME1 crew is more defined than the ME2 squad.[/quote]

Where? When? That's what I'm trying to ask. Where and when?

[quote]And no, they say more than just their names on elevators, they talk about their philosophies and lives. You are trying to devalue to prove your point. That's also stating your opinion based on falsehood.[/quote]

Except when they talk about their lifes and philosophy it's generally generic and the squadmate will say the same lines to everyother squadmate, with a few exceptions. ME2 has this as well during the hub areas.

[/quote]

[themikefest]

txgoldrush wrote...

Its not opinion, its fact.

Bioware lets you play missions without the dueteragonist, but that doesn't mean they aren't the deuteragonist. Bastila, Dawn Star, Alistair, Varric, Imoen, etc.

What fact is that?

[Steelcan]

What am I ignoring? The fact that her being SB is completed pointless? You say its reasonable because her network has been smashed, that does not change a gorram thing. Her content would not be changed if she wasn't the SB in any meaningful way.

Her thematic importance is demolished by Javik.

She has no reason to be on the Normandy beyond the fact that she really really wants what is between Shepard's legs.

[ImaginaryMatter]

txgoldrush wrote...

Its not opinion, its fact.

Bioware lets you play missions without the dueteragonist, but that doesn't mean they aren't the deuteragonist. Bastila, Dawn Star, Alistair, Varric, Imoen, etc.

Okay, except there is no definate state of being a dueteragonist. It's a term people use to describe a common occurance in stories. And generally what characters fit the term or not is reached upon consensus. There is no dueteragonist meter.

While I happen to agree that Liara is a dueteragonist it is something which is subjective. So don't start rattling off words like 'facts' and 'evidence' when we're dealing in a field that is almost entirely subjective.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 05 janvier 2014 - 01:24 .

[KaiserShep]

The problem with Liara's role as SB on the Normandy is that it has to play a balancing act with comm specialist Traynor and EDI's role on the ship. Traynor can't be another yeomen, so she has to do something more meaningful.

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

I would say Javik as a "symbol" is important. Perhaps not necessarily the character specifically. It's just that every game centered around Protheans/Collectors. Javik is just a continuation of that. It's unfortunate that he was DLC though. He wasn't originally designed to be.

edit: The same could be said for EDI as well. She's very important symbolically. So was Legion at one point. And if he didn't have the possibility of dying in ME2, he'd probably still be.

All things considered, I thought he added quite a lot to the story, DLC or not. 

[Steelcan]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Its not opinion, its fact.

Bioware lets you play missions without the dueteragonist, but that doesn't mean they aren't the deuteragonist. Bastila, Dawn Star, Alistair, Varric, Imoen, etc.

Okay, except there is no definate state of being a dueteragonist. It's a term people use to describe a common occurance in stories. And generally what characters fit the term or not is reached upon consensus. There is no dueteragonist meter.

While I happen to agree that Liara is a dueteragonist it is something which is subjective. So don't start rattling off words like 'facts' and 'evidence' when we're dealing in a field that is almost entirely subjective.

It seems to me that a deuteragonist has to be important to the plot Liara isn't for the vast majority of the game.

[txgoldrush]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Liara is actually very unimportant when all is said and done, she has no real purpose after Mars, her status as the SB is virtually ignored, and in combat she is easily surpassed by more durable squadmates.

She has no thematic importance whatsoever, and she is one upped constantly by a damned lab rat. Why on earth is she wasting oxygen on the Normandy

There you go again.

she has no real purpose after Mars - wrong, the mission on Thessia proves otherwise.

a) No it doesn't. She's in an emotional and whiny state. I'm practically forced to take her there. She does nothing except get wangsty that her Asari aren't all they're cracked up to be. Really, what does she do on that mission that's worthwhile?

her status as the SB is virtually ignored - wrong, its addressed that her power has been dimished. It is factually incorrect to say it is unknown.

It's made pretty secondary in the entire game. In fact, you'd think that with having to run and coordinate such a big intelligence operation, she wouldn't have the time or capability to serve on the Normandy in a role leads to a lot of significant deviation from monitoring her network, or risking said network on the Normandy while it flies into the thick of the invasion.

in combat she is easily surpassed by more durable squadmates - and yet player data for Bioware list her as one of the most used squadmates. Also has nothing to do with the story.

c) That doesn't mean she is actually more powerful or more durable. Just more popular.

Or does popularity dictate longevity?

She has no thematic importance whatsoever - so you ignored the theme on how a past race helps a future one, the entire beacon scene

d) You mean the theme that Javik completely subverts? The beacon scene where she's stumbling backwards in denial of Asari ascendance interspersed with wangsty blubbering about how this War is bad now that it affects her people?

Once again, you are voicing your opinion through falsehoods. There you go again. Just because you hate liara does not mean you can spin the facts to create an image of her uselessness.

e) There you go again. There you go again. You've been watching a lot of Ronald Reagan political debates haven't you.

I'm going to say that you dismiss everything you don't agree with. Yeah, I don't like her guts, and yes, I do legitimately question her role in the game and the plot. 

She's there because the writers wanted her to be there. They didn't bother ensuring her material was quality. They put her there to ensure she was open for the player. Because BW wanted her to be there for the player.

a) Not only character development, but she also gets you into the temple and clues you in on how to find the beacon.

Once again, secondary doesn't mean its ignored. I was addressing the statement that her role as the Broker is ignored, its not. Its downplayed and made secondary. And getting the Crucible plans was the main goal to being the Broker, this is achieved, so her role as Broker is less important. And really she is losing tabs on the galaxy due to the Reapers and Cerberus.

c) Or that she is a biotic compliment to a solider, which is why many take her. Once again, her game balance doesn't have anything to do with the plot.

d) Or that Javik compliments...you don't know what subvert is. She knows that the Protheans have helped the current cycle with the Reapers, and that she tries to provide the next cycle info if they fail. She just doesn't know that the Protheans had a extreme hand in Asari history because it was kept secret from everybody.

e) Of course she is important because the writers want her to be, like all stories where a writer makes a character important. But you are simply ignoring the fact that Bioware made her key to the plot in ME1 and ME3, and really ME2 as well.  You claims are illegitimate.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Steelcan wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Its not opinion, its fact.

Bioware lets you play missions without the dueteragonist, but that doesn't mean they aren't the deuteragonist. Bastila, Dawn Star, Alistair, Varric, Imoen, etc.

Okay, except there is no definate state of being a dueteragonist. It's a term people use to describe a common occurance in stories. And generally what characters fit the term or not is reached upon consensus. There is no dueteragonist meter.

While I happen to agree that Liara is a dueteragonist it is something which is subjective. So don't start rattling off words like 'facts' and 'evidence' when we're dealing in a field that is almost entirely subjective.

It seems to me that a deuteragonist has to be important to the plot Liara isn't for the vast majority of the game.

I always considered her one just because she found the Crucible and keeps sending materials there, also you have to talk to her alot about things pertaining to the story; which I don't necessarily mine because a blue Jillian Murray is a welcomed sight in such troubling times as galactic extinction.