16 réponses à ce sujet

[Maximillion46]

I don't have any intention of writing fix fics or unfix fics or whatever, that would just splinter the big and loving fanbase of the Mass Effect Games. I do however want to throw the product of my train of thoughts into the community and see what people think.

That there will be some discussion, is a given and I'd like it, but any outright bashing will not be that appreciated.

So here are my 'two cents' for a possible alternate reaper origin, based on ME1 and ME2 and maybe inspired by parts of ME3, just for fun (writing is along-time hobby of mine). So yes, I will try to wet some of the dry stuff here and there:D

While also talking about this with another member, I asked myself a few questions and tried to find a simple and logical answer, though it's all pure conjecture and very subjective I'm sure.

My questions and the answers that come to mind:

Why make it easier for species to get to mass effect level of technology? Faster harvesting; also as noted by the member I talked to, so they don’t use other kinds of technology the Reapers wouldn’t know how to counteract; ‘Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.’ –Sovereign. ‘Putting a fence around your cattle’, paraphrasing my fellow member.

Side question answered: Why make it easier for species to get to mass effect level of technology? Faster harvesting

Side question answered: What is the harvesting for? Making new Reapers

Side question answered: Why would only space-flight species be smart enough to be turned into a Reaper? Otherwise they would keep all organic species dumb for easy harvesting… Or a Reaper made from non-sentient species is worthless.

Why not keep producing the same space-flight species to harvest them and make new Reapers? They might eventually find a way to kill the Reapers if the war goes on long enough (what could have almost happened with the Protheans because of the resistance they put up and maybe some info from previous cycles)

So, suppose they need space flight sentient species to make new Reapers and they cannot avoid the species rebelling, ultimately quite effectively, against the harvesting, what are they to do? Keep continuing the cycle until a solution comes to them; they are deluded by their arrogance, but they still need to die

But… Why do they need to make new Reapers in the first place?

Before I present the alternate origins that members suggested and I figured could work, let’s check Sovereign’s quotes for some glaring inconsistencies that everyone will sure find in my alternate origins and goals of the Reapers. Sure, Sovereign could be lying, but ME2 and ME3 shows what is just a threat made out of arrogance and what is all too true. I could use all the quotes from ME2 and ME3, but that would be too much. And Sovereign’s quotes combined with events from ME2 and some of ME3, already seem to rule out some of the possibilities.

Without further ado, the magnificently hammy Sovereign, the Vanguard of your destruction (or not so magnificent, that’s anyone’s opinion).

Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.
Sovereign: We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Guess not, Sovereign. *Shepard Fist*

Sovereign: We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world.

Okay, true story.

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Sovereign: Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are.
Sovereign: There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

More arrogance, but possibly referring to them being the pinnacle of all organic evolution, indoctrination and the Reapers trying to look like Space Chtulhus even if they might not be as uberpowerful. Possibly referring to dark space and again a ‘you are but cosmic specks of dust’ speech like Harbinger likes to give. Reapers sure are hammy:D

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
Sovereign: Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken.
Sovereign: The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them - the legacy of my kind.
Sovereign: Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

Pinnacle of evolution, there it is! More arrogance, apex glory, built the mass relays and Citadel (spoilers!), made a fence around the cattle (or gave them crutches to stand up which the Reapers can easily use to cripple them again, if you’re still following the broken as heck metaphor) and a bit about the Reapers being a nation each on their own, maybe even a consensus? Anyway, the Reapers being made of a whole organic race seems to be a quite logical revelation in ME2, though that’s just my guess as to how Bioware planned some stuff.

Sovereign: Your words are as empty as your future. I am the Vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over...

Boy, I really want to kill him again now.

So as you’ll probably see as you skim what’s down below, I already have a clear favorite among the alternate Reaper origins. But let’s try to bring logic into this, very dangerous. Let’s go to the last of my questions that led to several options as to what origin the Reapers have and what their motives might are as a result. Note: I purposefully excluded the official origin from the answers to my questions, since that would kind of defeat the purpose of finding an alternate origin, for fun.

But… Why do they need to make new Reapers in the first place?

- It could be their former organic drive to reproduce.

My personal opinion is that this is a very good reason… to rid the world of Reapers. That’s just me.

Let me elaborate: if you can make Mass Effect Relays, the Citadel, orchestrate thousands of cycles of death and destruction because you can’t get such a flaw out of your system or hive mind…

Spoiler for Halo!!!

Well, you have the Flood (Halo) with technology really. *shudder* Did I just imagine that?

- Or if they truly are immortal, as some members suggested they could just want to spend their immortality discovering everything there is to know about the cosmos and the lesser races should serve them in their pursuit.

That would explain having to harvest space-flight smart races… and even leaves room for arrogance. But then you’d also really want them to die, because even if cooperating with races in the past didn’t work out, or you’re too arrogant to ask and just demand their servitude (not unlike the Protheans), thousands of cycles of genocide and sacrificing other races for the quest for ‘knowledge’ makes you an abusive God we should be freed from by killing that God/those Gods… or you could have a high enough Paragon or Renegade count that you Charm or Intimidate them into stopping all of this. If people would have considered that the crowning achievement of Shepard. And the Crucible was planned as some sort of weapon in ME3 sans ending (which WAS extensively peer reviewed, even if you don’t agree with their writing decisions), so it could be used as a threat to make the Reapers change their minds… or be wiped out. Letting the Reapers live might’ve been too stupid, but killing them while they were so deluded in their quest for knowledge or just wiping an enemy out because they’re too dangerous, could not go over well with how you handled the krogan and the geth… unless the decisions you made with them influence your final decision, so you have to stay true to your choices, instead of being able to overwrite anything.

- Could be that they think every species should become a Reaper.

-> An arrogant apex race. Yep, pretty much fits the bill. But more on this in the next answer, which combines with it.

- Or maybe Reapers aren’t as perfect as they or the species they harvest believe. For example, the ‘pinnacle of organic evolution’ does not allow normal reproduction (which seems to be confirmed by ME2) AND Reapers eventually die (if only after millions of years) and they’re looking for a cure with their cycles

-> Either they make new Reapers in an effort to find the perfect way to make a Reaper, or they make a smarter Reaper that can fix this ‘problem’ with their imperfect form; then they can go back to making other races serving them, the ‘apex race’

Warning: spoilers for the Covenant from Halo and the Higbreed from Ben 10: Alien Force; hate for
these shows is irrelevant while talking about the concept behind these races/alien empires

So, a combination of
both of the above options:

The Reapers could be a proud race that ascended, only to find out other races didn’t and they forced them to do the same (similar to the Covenant from Halo branding pretty much everyone who doesn’t agree with their beliefs heretics and enemies); but then they found out their ascension wasn’t that perfect at all (like the Highbreed in Ben 10: Alien Force with their purity); in their twisted belief that they were the apex race (formerly the Leviathans), they refused the thought they weren’t perfect or they had made a mistake and looked for thralls, people to indoctrinate who could find the ‘real’ reason why they were dying, maybe even blaming it on dark energy (now don’t flip, just connecting the weirdest stuff to see if it is an interesting and somewhat logical link). Only problem is, how the heck is Shepard going to find a cure for them? Provided you don’t destroy them because you want them to die so bad.

Just my thoughts for any choices for this origin and the Reaper’s motives:

You could choose between destroying the Reapers (Renegade-ish) or letting them help rebuild (Paragon-ish). Revenge or Forgiveness? Being just as ruthless as the Reapers, or making compromises with a very powerful enemy?

The Crucible could be the weapon to destroy the Reapers or make them cooperate (though that could very much be like putting a shock collar on an evil Superman). Or Shepard could convince them to help each other, help rebuild and help find the cure… Only problem is, that could be one heck of a cure.

That’s one of the weaknesses of this alternate origin and the Reaper’s motives have: there is no clue as to how they should come up with such a cure…


Warning: Me going nuts, rant rant rant! Feel free to address the issues I have with what the Bioware writers were thinking in the terms of planning stories, not the content of the actual story.


While the original ending, which was badly foreshadowed and splits people (I liked the well-known synthetic vs. organic conflict from sci-fi literature maybe a bit too much and am therefore biased, but not necessarily totally in the wrong), makes it a case of Shepard showing organics are ready for the solution so it can be used. I have digged and digged and digged and while I eventually agreed with the member I talked to that the ending doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of ME3, but… something else doesn’t fit.

I usually make things up as I write stories, but even I plan the ending, the villains’ motivations in rough outlines and TIM’s control subplot (and other stuff) seems like the less than stellar foreshadowing of an ending that would’ve been a bit better executed than the EC if EA had let Bioware. If the ending’s created vs creators theme doesn’t fit with the rest of ME3, does that mean they planned some of the ending, a final twist about the Reaper’s motivations and then  two writers said ‘screw that, we have to churn out endings to keep EA happy’… or they didn’t plan the ending AT ALL?

And this is why, I decided not to make an alternate ending fic, because it would mean putting a lot of planning and foreshadowing as early as the second half of ME2 or something. It seems as if if you took ME1, ME2 and ME3 sans ending… any alternate Reaper origin, motivations and an ending to go along with the twists… wouldn’t fit. The foreshadowing just isn’t there, TIM wanting to control the Reapers is made quite clear in the beginning of the peer-reviewed Mars mission, yet it’s a part of three colored endings there is much debate about. Sure, the control could be similar to my ‘putting a shock collar on an evil Superman’ idea, but it would actually make more sense if you were actually the accepted boss of the Reapers, the Catalyst, instead of the guy with the shock collar’s remote.

So this could be the cause of the split: either they didn’t plan the ending at all and wrote themselves in a corner, so they made an ending without thinking about some foreshadowing, so there are some errors that can be acceptable for one side, but no for the other. Or they did plan some of it, but the execution was flawed and how accepting you are of what they ‘tried to do which some can see and others cannot’ or ‘should have done but they didn’t deliver’, is a matter of personal opinion. I sense I’m gonna get flak from both pro-enders AND anti-enders now, so although I have put a very long and personal treatise and rant on the subject, answering it with your own opinion and arguments isn’t going to help. What might help is give a short answer to a simple question I have as a writer: What could they have planned that some fans still wouldn’t have liked, but was executed with quite some flaws because of all the circumstances (EA pushing, Bioware rushing and not having planned enough ahead in their trilogy, etc.)? I just don’t get it, as a WRITER. Not as a fan that wanted this or that, but as a builder of metaphorical houses that says: why didn’t they use concrete for that wall! What if you build ten stories on that, it’s not gonna hold!

End of rant.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 18 décembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[jnthn0584]

Interesting….but I’ve had my own ideas based a bit more on the actual lore and events of the game, rather than reaper gibberish. Heck, if looked at from a purely objective point of view (like an AI would) it actually makes the reapers sympathetic.

Consider this; throughout Mass Effect 2 there was constant references to a buildup of dark energy in the galaxy that was starting to have negative effects, like killing off stars. If it continued and was left unchecked that build up could destroy the galaxy and beyond. And do you know what, in the lore, gathers a lot of dark energy together in one place? Biotics.

In short, the gradual evolution of biotics throughout the galaxy (sped up by the development of Mass Effect technologies) was ultimately going to destroy the galaxy as a whole (we are your genetic destiny…). Many, many cycles ago some ancient race learned this truth, and knew that steps needed to be taken to prevent it not only for the sake of the galaxy, but the universe as a whole. To preserve life on a scale beyond what any mere mortal could imagine (we are beyond your comprehension…).

The mass relays are ultimately a delaying action; huge dark energy cannons posing as travel technology that’s actual purpose is to help spread out dark energy in a given galaxy by shooting it off in different directions. To really solve the problem you would need ships, massive ships driven by AIs, that would travel not just within a galaxy, but across the endless and unfathomable span of the universe as a whole absorbing dark energy to fuel themselves and converting it into basic thermal energy to be discharged from their primary weapons relatively harmlessly (on a universal scale at least).

Even that wouldn’t help in the long run. So you can delay the build up with your Mass Relays and even clean it up with your advanced AI ships; you still haven’t stopped it. You’ve bought the universe time, but you haven’t saved it. The thing responsible for the buildup would have to targeted and destroyed, and you Reapers would have to continue to patrol the universe forever in case it ever reappeared. It is really the only way to protect countless lives (we are your salvation through destruction…).

Really how is Shepard any different? He allowed one of his friends to die to save an army. He allowed hundreds of thousands of aliens to die for the chance to maybe save the galaxy. Really what is the difference between that, and letting one galaxy perish to protect the entire universe except the sense of scale? It still ultimately boils down to “sacrifice one to save many.” It is still a philosophy Shepard has proven multiple times that he supports, regardless of being paragon or renegade.

Maybe, if Shepard were charismatic enough, he could have spoken to the Reaper’s collective AI and negotiated a deal. Learned the truth and bargained for more time so that the galaxy could solve the problem themselves. Of course the price of that would be high, they would have to give the Reapers something they wanted….like every living biotic in the galaxy. A mass sacrifice for the greater good. The Reapers would understand that. It wouldn’t be a big deal for humans due to the relatively low number of active biotics, but it would be devastating to some aliens like the Asari who would need to be completely wiped out down to the last. Well, Shepard is used to making hard choices….

[Maximillion46]

Hm, that is a very interesting take on the supposed dark energy ending and it avoids 'we want to avoid build up of dark energy so we make dark energy things that... wait', but this biotics problem could have been easily solved by securing all the element zero and destroying it (or locking it up).
Though that would make for an interesting scenario where greedy races try to get the eezo to have access to amazing and tempting mass effect technology and the Reapers keep try to keep their hands off of it and try to make them listen, but the races don't understand what the mass effect technology causes (like with radioactivity; Pierre Curie showed the 'glowy substance' at parties and kept it in his pocket! Marie Curie's cooking books are kept in lock-up because they give off too much radiation, because she carried radioactive particles over to them and the food she cooked).

Eventually the Reapers or their creators give up and just periodically slaughter mass effect technology using races who discover eezo and have biotic babies... Except the Reapers encourage using mass effect technology, which only increases the chance at biotic babies, if only biotics somehow cause dark energy build-ups and mass effect technology doesn't. If you didn't encourage mass effect technology, based on eezo which causes biotic babies, it would take a lot longer for people to discover this miracle technology; yes, they would be harder to eradicate because they wouldn't go into the Citadel trap, but there's no solution to be had from the cycles, except if they slowly found a way to get rid of eezo altogether.

On a ME2 note, Reapers could be made from organics so you do two things: eliminate biotic individuals and make new starships to absorb the dark energy or think up a solution... But it would still be way more easier to just destroy every organic life, which the Reapers can easily do.

The only reason they wouldn't (besides not wanting to extinguish the beauty of life), would be because they need the organics to help think up a solution in the form of a Reaper... Something doesn't seem to fit, it seems. And this last cycle is suddenly special enough to be trusted by the Reapers to solve the problem.

Moreso, this cycle has asari engineered by the Protheans to all be biotic and LEAD the current cycle. That would be one humongous project for the Reapers to let slide, certainly after they killed off the Protheans and the asari were just sitting there, preparing to lead... and being a huge biotic population. Any thoughts on my alternate origins?

Also, yes they could leave non-spaceflight life alive in the hope the next cycle will be smarter, but I would expect the Reapers to try to reason with the next cycle... and if that failed after hundreds of cycles, well... what would the Reaper's actions in the ME trilogy accomplish?

Edit: And Object Rho and the Alpha Relay just make dark energy even more... wrong, as the Reapers at least made the Alpha Relay, perhaps as a back-up plan.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 18 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[jnthn0584]

You assume that Element Zero is something that can be simply disposed of. That would be like collecting all carbon in the universe and destroying it; you just effectively not only ended all life, you ended the possiblity of life. Element Zero could be something important to the universe that the Reapers know they have to leave alone. Heck, it could be the physical manifestation of the Higgs-Boson particle and thereby responsible for physical matter being able to exist at all. Dark Energy and Element Zero are not inherently bad things, they are just supposed to be spread out more. And given that both have an ambient presence in the universe the development of Mass Effect technologies and biotics is inevitable even without the preexisting stuff. So if it is going to happen anyway, you may as well encurage it to happen in a way that is easy for you to predict and counteract.

As for your ideas, they are good ones. I just don’t care for the whole “synthetics gone rogue” or “motivated by arrogance/xenophobia” angles because I feel like they’ve all been done and overused in Sci-Fi. My idea isn’t exactly original mind you, but the whole “working as intended; you’re actually causing more harm than good/surprise: we’re the good guys” angle isn’t as common as other sci-fi tropes.


Edit: Think of it like a forest fire. Sooner later one is going to happen no matter what. Maybe it will be a heat wave or a lightning strike or just some dumb guy tossing a match out a window; it is inevitable. Sooner or later something is going to cause that forest to burn down. And when the fire is raging too high for you to fight it, you do a controlled burn. You light up the edge of the forest yourself, preventing the raging fire storm from being able to spread, and then you just wait it out.

Same deal here. Sooner or later organics are going toharness eezo and dark energy no matter what you do. So you may as well corral themin to contain the damage, wait for the fire to start, and then stomp it out before it causes any real problems.

Modifié par jnthn0584, 18 décembre 2013 - 07:47 .

[Maximillion46]

If eezo and biotics is inevitable, than sacrificing the asari and all biotic individuals wouldn't be that useful. Reapers work as vacuum cleaners in every alternate origin as well as the one we got, but the small problem in both mine and your origin is that the solution is either very hard to suddenly come up with in Shepard's cycle or you basically force the Reapers to leave everyone alone or die.

Yes, the arrogance is quite common in sci-fi, it is used quite extensively in Mass Effect with Sovereign and Harbinger and the Rannoch reaper, but them looking for a 'cure' would make them a dying race, motivated by desperation, the will to survive. But... that cure is very far, while the synthesis solution, flawed as the ending was executed and hated as it is, was right there, though if you call 'organics were not ready yet' a flimsy excuse, you would have a good point.

They could also just want to know everything and use extreme methods and servitude of every living thing to get that, but that's also arrogant and quite common, excellent point. Though I aimed to find an ending that fit with the trilogy, not an original one. And until a very original one is found that fits with ME1, ME2 and ME3 sans ending, I'm inclined to believe an interesting, not so original but still alternative fit is the next best thing, if we're looking at doing this just for fun, of course.

Edit: in response to your edit, that would just convince the Reapers to at most make a deal with Shepard that either they don't use mass effect technology ever again (or maybe they discover a technology that doesn't increase dark energy or lessens it) or they agree to let Shepard's cycle live an additional millennium before they have to wipe them out.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[jnthn0584]

Pretty much my point. No organic race or the Reapers themselves have been able to come up with a real solution in eons, so why would humans suddenly be able to? They wouldn’t. Those are you options for endings; broker a temporary stay of execution from the Reapers at the cost of all living biotics, try to fight the Reapers and hope for the best, or use the flawed super weapon found in the Mars Archives. The endings we got don’t have to be changed, just the logic behind them and a tone of “well now we have to deal with this new issue” added. The refuse ending should be expanded, and the “acceptance” ending added.

Modifié par jnthn0584, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:02 .

[Maximillion46]

Well, I mentioned a few of your options in my edit of my previous post... And it basically comes down to: destroy the Reapers, screw the universe; deal with the Reapers, eventually die and the cycles continue (and even the most benevolent Reapers would not like giving the races extra time to find a way to destroy all Reapers to say screw destiny); or accept your fate and let the vacuum cleaners through... the entire ME trilogy was pointless, roll credits; I think fans would've gone... insane if this would have been the ending (like how they were after finishing ME3 sans EC DLC... times a billion), except if they agree to make dark energy converters en masse.

The current cycle's races are different enough that, through Shepard's efforts, they're united to make a difference. The Reapers guard any misuse of eezo and every race maintains the dark energy in the galaxy. That could actually work... if there is a dark energy converter design in every Reaper and there was a reason they didn't just use make billions of them. Or the races in the Leviathan's time were too greedy for mass effect technology and the Reapers needed Shepard to open their eyes to the races of the current cycle that actually understand what the Reapers had found about the dark energy and will help to stop the end of the universe. I like it, it fits, though that's just me.

[jnthn0584]

As far as the trilogy being pointless because there is no real way to change the galaxy’s fate….EXACTLY.

It is pretty obvious that Mass Effect draws seriously heavy influence from the so called “Cthulhu Mythos,” and that type of ending is pretty much stock for the Mythos. Everything from the Reapers being some unfathomable ancient force from the deepest darkest regions of existence to the very concept of indoctrination is Lovecraftian horror at its finest. Add to that the fact that Mass Effect 2 directly references the Mythos multiple times and it is pretty obvious exactly what the game and the reapers are.

Consider the mission aboard the dead reaper in Mass Effect 2. You find a recording where an indoctrinated fellow says “even dead gods can dream.” Now here is a direct quote from the short story The Call of Cthulhu. “In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.”

And one last thing about Lovecraftian horror; the core theme is hopelessness, powerlessness, and futility. You can’t fight the inevitable. So if you consider that Mass Effect is, or was at least intended to be, Lovecraftian styled or inspired there is really only one way the series could have possibly ended. And it was given to us with the Extended Cut, and was not a happy ending. Some called it a big middle finger to fans who wanted to refuse the original options given us, I call it the only stylistically appropriate conclusion.

Modifié par jnthn0584, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:37 .

[Maximillion46]

There is an interesting page on this:

http://tvtropes.org/...n/LovecraftLite

It combines the dread of chtulhu-like works with a more hopeful ending.

Do note, as they say on the page, that Lovecraft actually wrote several lovecraft lite stories, so the obvious response of 'Lovecraft would turn over in his grave' doesn't ring quite true. It could be that Bioware intended to have a hopeless ending, but I doubt they softened it to what we got because of the fans. I figure they must've intended a bittersweet ending, but not a grimdark ending. Whatever floats your boat though. What kind of ending every fan wanted, could have been very different indeed. I guess I have to admit I looked for a bittersweet ending that would make most fans satisfied (not necessarily happy). So, your cosmic horror ending stands as being consistent with lore as far as this fan can discern, but perhaps not the themes some fans see. I wouldn't say they or you are wrong about the main theme of the ME trilogy though. So... I guess that's that. Onto more alternate origins to explore in this topic, as this is something to do for fun as I envisioned this topic^^ Good talk:D Thanks.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[SDW]

jnthn0584 wrote...

As far as the trilogy being pointless because there is no real way to change the galaxy’s fate….EXACTLY.

Actually, it's the opposite. Hope and doing impossible things were always there. Shepard & compadres do the impossible on a daily basis, so to speak. The Mu relay is lost, a myth, nobody knows where to find it - Shepard does. Sovereign announces his superiority to the races of every cycle - the united fleets beat him. Nobody's ever passed through the Omega relay and come back - Shepard does that. Beating the Collectors is a suicide mission - Shepard's crew manages to do that (sure you can make bad decisions and kill off everybody if you so please, but it's possible to have everyone survive, and for ME 3 to happen, at least Shep and 2 squad members must have survived, so someone does return). The genophage has been around for a long time and the Krogans seem too dangerous for anyone to change that - Shepard can bring the right person (Wrex) for stability in the leading position and help spread a successful cure. The Geth and Quarians have never been able to work out their issues - when Shepard gets involved in the matter, a peaceful solution can be found. Shepard holds several speeches about how they all will fight and never give up and how there is hope. I really cannot agree here. Must take a deeper look at the other things you guys wrote in another post.

Modifié par SDW, 18 décembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[SDW]

Looking at some of the endings you two suggested.
I find a certain beauty and continuing of themes in the "cure ending". Allowing the player to choose between forgiveness or destruction is interesting because those choices can be interpreted as paragon and renegade. The paragon path in the game usually relied on investing trust in people, and most of the time, it paid off. Renegade decisions, when not being seemingly jerkish like kicking the mercenary through the window in Thane's recruitment mission, seem to involve an element of "better safe than sorry". In a way, both decisions are logical and valid. Having played as a paragon, I think "forgiveness" (as long as the Reapers really stay harmless) would conclude theme of getting everyone to work together in an unusual but fitting manner: Over the course of ME 3, it seemed that with enough good will, no cause was lost - "nobody is beyond saving", so to speak. It may take some convincing, but hey, even Balak could be made to do his part. The exception are those who willfully stay apart like TIM and of course, the Reapers. Though, in the end, you could make TIM see the error of his ways. Why not the Reapers? They are the only species that has to be fought and seems beyond hope. Of course that is because they are not willing to stop their harvest, and if they can't be reasoned with, what do you want to do?
I think given these options, most players would still have preferred to blow up the Reapers. Even if you think they can stop what they've been doing for countless cycles, the thought of having the greatest mass murderers of history roam free is hard to come to terms with. But if it were possible to come to a peaceful solution with even them, willingly, wow: "What can stop us now? We've done the impossible twice over." That would be an uplifting conclusion.

The dark energy ending is of course something the writers themselves had been pondering, so with enough foreshadowing, it could work. The problem sure sounds like one you cannot ignore. 
I may have forgotten things here, but in ME 2 it seems they only alluded to it with the Haestrom mission and that was that. Would have been okay, just would require foreshadowing to pop up all over ME 3.
Only, if the Reapers only kill off spacefaring civilizations so that they don't create more dark energy with their biotics and tech (or did I get you wrong there?), that seems like half right, half wrong. If you want to make sure nobody creates dark energy, why not kill off everybody right away? Every civilization seems to eventually reach the point where they start using the relevant technology. The other half is, so they cause a problem - why kill them for that? If the guy next door blasts loud music all night long, yes, I can pay him a visit with a gun and solve the problem that way. But I could also just talk to him and ask him to please keep it down. The Reapers are able to communicate with organics. Organics are able to research and invent. So why not talk to them, make them aware of the problem and make sure you and they work on a solution together?

Modifié par SDW, 18 décembre 2013 - 09:59 .

[voteDC]

I don't think the Reapers ever needed their origin telling. The conversation with Sovereign in the first game told us everything we needed to know about them and their motivations.

Everything after that just served to cheapen them.

[jnthn0584]

SDW wrote...
If you want to make sure nobody creates dark energy, why not kill off everybody right away? Every civilization seems to eventually reach the point where they start using the relevant technology. The other half is, so they cause a problem - why kill them for that? If the guy next door blasts loud music all night long, yes, I can pay him a visit with a gun and solve the problem that way. But I could also just talk to him and ask him to please keep it down. The Reapers are able to communicate with organics. Organics are able to research and invent. So why not talk to them, make them aware of the problem and make sure you and they work on a solution together?

Sounds a lot like Shepard trying to reason with the Reapers for a paragon ending to me. Means it was a good concept. And ultimately the core here is that the Reapers have given up; they haven’t been able to find a real solution and organics keep repeating the same mistakes over and over so they just stopped trying to solve the problem and are now on damage control. They wipe out whole civilizations regularly because it has to be done to protect the larger universe, but they are not cold blooded and heartless murders and wiping out all life in the galaxy is not their goal. Again the Reapers are just Shepard on a larger scale; and they do believe that life, and each race, should be given the benefit of doubt and a chance to thrive and make the right decisions.

They have just given up trying to correct those mistakes when they’re made and know that no organic race will heed any warning they are given, so when the problem shows itself they swing by and stamp it out because it has to be done. Likewise, again, they are concerned with an entire universe full of life and can’t focus on just one galaxy. So they can’t just hang around the Milky Way and monitor everyone to make sure everything it going smoothly. They just send a vanguard or a harbinger once a cycle to check on things, and if the problem is repeating itself they stamp it out and move on. The Reapers aren’t sleeping in dark space for fifty-thousand years between harvests; they are patrolling the universe as a whole. And likewise the harvest and creating new Reapers based on the organics they harvest is a kind of memorial to those that tried, failed, and were lost. A race’s legacy, and a race’s chance to redeem themselves by preventing the very disasters they nearly caused.

Modifié par jnthn0584, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:28 .

[SDW]

That could work. Of course they don't have a solution for the dark energy problem as long as they harvest - then again, the way Karpyshyn and colleagues thought it up, the harvest was their way of finding a solution (by amassing the brain power of those they made into new Reapers).

Modifié par SDW, 18 décembre 2013 - 10:53 .

[Maximillion46]

@ voteDC: That would've also perfectly been acceptable. The Reapers are a high and mighty race and we finally manage to break the cycle and defeat them^^ I could be missing something, hints that something more was always going on, but I can't say for sure.

jnthn0584 wrote...

SDW wrote...
If you want to make sure nobody creates dark energy, why not kill off everybody right away? Every civilization seems to eventually reach the point where they start using the relevant technology. The other half is, so they cause a problem - why kill them for that? If the guy next door blasts loud music all night long, yes, I can pay him a visit with a gun and solve the problem that way. But I could also just talk to him and ask him to please keep it down. The Reapers are able to communicate with organics. Organics are able to research and invent. So why not talk to them, make them aware of the problem and make sure you and they work on a solution together?

Sounds a lot like Shepard trying to reason with the Reapers for a paragon ending to me. Means it was a good concept. And ultimately the core here is that the Reapers have given up; they haven’t been able to find a real solution and organics keep repeating the same mistakes over and over so they just stopped trying to solve the problem and are now on damage control. They wipe out whole civilizations regularly because it has to be done to protect the larger universe, but they are not cold blooded and heartless murders and wiping out all life in the galaxy is not their goal. Again the Reapers are just Shepard on a larger scale; and they do believe that life, and each race, should be given the benefit of doubt and a chance to thrive and make the right decisions.

They have just given up trying to correct those mistakes when they’re made and know that no organic race will heed any warning they are given, so when the problem shows itself they swing by and stamp it out because it has to be done. Likewise, again, they are concerned with an entire universe full of life and can’t focus on just one galaxy. So they can’t just hang around the Milky Way and monitor everyone to make sure everything it going smoothly. They just send a vanguard or a harbinger once a cycle to check on things, and if the problem is repeating itself they stamp it out and move on. The Reapers aren’t sleeping in dark space for fifty-thousand years between harvests; they are patrolling the universe as a whole. And likewise the harvest and creating new Reapers based on the organics they harvest is a kind of memorial to those that tried, failed, and were lost. A race’s legacy, and a race’s chance to redeem themselves by preventing the very disasters they nearly caused.

Could be that they always check if the new organic races have biotics and if they do, they have no choice but to eradicate them. Maybe no race has learned not to do so and they wouldn't listen anyway, the Reapers probably tried... but because of the usage of mass effect technology, they will ALWAYS develop biotics, unintentionally. It would be different if they willfully made biotic babies (which some fool always ends up doing), but the biotic babies weren't mass produced by the races, the usage of mass effect technology largely caused them. And no matter how warm-hearted you are, leaving the asari to all use biotics for thousands of years, seems like a big thing to ignore.

Yes, it could be that the Reapers patrol the entire universe (a nice idea, which brings up my thoughts of having another galaxy being the setting of the next Mass Effect game) and thus didn't notice the asari pre-spaceflight before they left (or they were genetically engineered by the scientists who hid on Ilos), but the planet is still very rich in eezo and the asari were already there. At least moving the asari (by the Reapers) to a planet without so much eezo would have made them less biotically gifted... Then again, the Protheans could've moved them back. Still, first destroying Thessia and dispersing all that eezo would've been handy, but that's nitpicking I guess.

One crazy idea: contaminating every eezo there is so every baby that would've become biotic, dies. Yeah, a bit too much.

But I guess Shepard could be the awesome badass he is and show the Reapers the races from this cycle do understand the danger of biotics, he offers a sacrifice of biotics (if he is one himself, him too? Or he sacrifices himself so it seems fair he sacrifices others for the greater good) ... but only temporary? That pretty much sucks.

I guess I would personally like it (and I think most of the fanbase) if they made an agreement with the Reapers that they stop biotics from happening ever again, they'll let the current cycle live... pretty much forever.

As for SDW's last addition, I guess they could help with making new Reapers/'superthinkers' to eventually solve the dark energy problem.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 19 décembre 2013 - 01:46 .

[corporal doody]

they should have NEVER given the Reapers a origin or a reason

[Maximillion46]

corporal doody wrote...

they should have NEVER given the Reapers a origin or a reason

I can guess people just want a very powerful enemy to hate and eventually stop, but wouldn't that be... easy?

Admittedly, I like multiple layers in my stories and the evil guys not being evil just because, is one of those layers, though my tastes can get convoluted.

Or didn't you like that the Reapers turned out to be 'very comprehensible'?