891 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

This is a thread dedicated to how the mages and templars can finally resolve their differences to form a new cohesive alliance without the need for mass killing or genocide on either side.  For the most part, I have seen people generally agree templars of some form need to stick around while most templar supporters have agreed that the circle system needs to be reformed or improved to some degree especially in comparison to that of Kirkwall's circle.  The big point is finding that right compromise or point in between.  This topic is also for the express purpose of how to establish that form of an alliance and the details it would involve.  Saying there can be no alliance will be considered spam.

[Senya]

I support this.

[Veruin]

This will go well.

[Dave of Canada]

Harsher Circle for the first generation or two, slowly giving them rights to the point they were prior to the war. Fortified communities built outside of the Circles would provide shelter for Templar and Mage families who'd give up their land/holdings to the Chantry, offering the Chantry the ability to have free labor to take care of duties which Templar and Mages are too preoccupied to do and having them be warned that they're likely the first victims if an apostate/abomination rampages out.

They'd handle things like food preparation, etc.

Mages would be designated a few hours every couple of days where they're allowed to meet with their families under Templar surveillance.

Families who don't give two ****s about their kid or don't want to give up their holdings don't have to do anything.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:23 .

[HiroVoid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Harsher Circle for the first generation or two, slowly giving them rights to the point they were prior to the war. Fortified communities built outside of the Circles would provide shelter for Templar and Mage families who'd give up their land/holdings to the Chantry, offering the Chantry the ability to have free labor to take care of duties which Templar and Mages are too preoccupied to do and having them be warned that they're likely the first victims if an apostate/abomination rampages out.

They'd handle things like food preparation, etc.

Mages would be designated a few hours every couple of days where they're allowed to meet with their families under Templar surveillance.

Families who don't give two ****s about their kid or don't want to give up their holdings don't have to do anything.

Just out of curiosity Dave, have you ever thought that having a community in general for mages rather than a single or bunched up buildings would help out more in the case of keeping mages in a specific area?  It could also potentially allow mages to get involved with other communities and activities rather than just the fraternities or whatever else it is the mages usually do.  Of course, putting them in a community also increases the risk of apostates unless the place is very well fortified to a certain degree.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd say a community would be terrible, it's harder to observe a community as a whole and doesn't necessarily work with the amount of things the Circle has to manage. You'd need to compensate by recruiting more Templar which costs more lyrium.

The whole financial cost and the security risks imposed on the community format would just cause trouble, I'd say the best "building" is the Circle of Magi at Lake Calenhad. Just fortify it with a community outside of it which accepts the families as mentioned above and you're practically golden.

[thetinyevil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Harsher Circle for the first generation or two, slowly giving them rights to the point they were prior to the war. Fortified communities built outside of the Circles would provide shelter for Templar and Mage families who'd give up their land/holdings to the Chantry, offering the Chantry the ability to have free labor to take care of duties which Templar and Mages are too preoccupied to do and having them be warned that they're likely the first victims if an apostate/abomination rampages out.

They'd handle things like food preparation, etc.

Mages would be designated a few hours every couple of days where they're allowed to meet with their families under Templar surveillance.

Families who don't give two ****s about their kid or don't want to give up their holdings don't have to do anything.

This wouldn't work. They would not be given any rights in a generation or two instead what little rights they were give would be taken to the point where the mages would be nothing but work animals to be used and destroyed at the whims of their masters. 

You are still talking about prison for people who have no control over how they are born.



This thing would only cause another war.

Modifié par thetinyevil, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[KainD]

Let's find a compromise between a lion and a gazelle! I'm sure we can work something out.

[thetinyevil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

[HiroVoid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

I can understand consequences for rebellion, but it can certainly be argued and shown in history that too harsh of a punishment only encourages more rebellion and death.  The complicated spot seems to be to find the spot between what is too harsh and what would be too lenient in this case.  There also needs to be discussion how templars themselves could also be monitored more closely so cases such as Meredith and other corrupt templars do not repeat themselves.

I'm also cautious about the 'generation or two' part as well.  An ideal plan would be to have a leader behind it, but it seems more likely any future leader would just stick with the harsher penalties since the person with the original plan wouldn't be alive in another one or two generations.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:49 .

[KainD]

thetinyevil wrote...

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

ROFL

[thetinyevil]

KainD wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

ROFL

I'm thinking of two words right now. Can you guess what they are?

[Snook]

mages and tempars are srs bsns

[HiroVoid]

thetinyevil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

So what plan would you set in place for both mages and templars in the future?  Also, the last part is debatable to a pont at least until mages get a full education.  When Wynne first saw her powers, she couldn't control it.  There was a practicing mage at least in his teens if not over 18 having a difficult time controlling his fire spell in the mage origins.

This is a large part of why many pro-mage supporters have argued the neccesity of at least requiring the circle for education as well as demon combatting.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Senya]

HiroVoid wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

I can understand consequences for rebellion, but it can certainly be argued and shown in history that too harsh of a punishment only encourages more rebellion and death.  The complicated spot seems to be to find the spot between what is too harsh and what would be too lenient in this case.  There also needs to be discussion how templars themselves could also be monitored more closely so cases such as Meredith and other corrupt templars do not repeat themselves.

I'm also cautious about the 'generation or two' part as well.  An ideal plan would be to have a leader behind it, but it seems more likely any future leader would just stick with the harsher penalties since the person with the original plan wouldn't be alive in another one or two generations.

Agreed. There are legitimate grievances on the Mage side such as people like Meredith. The ideal way to end the war is for there to be an agreement between mages and Templars.

[KainD]

thetinyevil wrote...
I'm thinking of two words right now. Can you guess what they are?

Yes, easy. 

But you are getting worked up about an issue that has no solution, period. Inequality and conflict, war and death, those are the ways of life, 

Modifié par KainD, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:56 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

thetinyevil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

So what SCP foundation control their scp as well otherwise the world would be destroyed that same case but unlike like stupid templars they are smart enough to want eliminate more dangerous scp.So no releasing scp-682 just because it is "right". And yes they can't control that i think that it is proved many times and yes they are bombs unstable bombs need to be defused not kept in prison.  

[SgtSteel91]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Agreed. There are legitimate grievances on the Mage side such as people like Meredith. The ideal way to end the war is for there to be an agreement between mages and Templars.

The pro-Templars would have some people who at least understands where Meredith comes from.

But I like to believe that everyone can agree that Templars like Ser Otto Alrik and his dumb*ss "Tranquil Solution" should not be allowed in the Templar Order.

[Dave of Canada]

thetinyevil wrote...

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS!

What makes you say this?

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

Except they are.

HiroVoid wrote...

I can understand consequences for rebellion, but it can certainly be argued and shown in history that too harsh of a punishment only encourages more rebellion and death.

That's why I'd potentially want to undermine mages to the point that any future rebellion is ineffective, they can't rebel because they have no chance of accomplishing anything. Allowing them to be taken in mostly consequence free would be problematic and lead to the idea that rebellion is a legitimate tactic for change.

Creating a system which rewards loyalists while penalizing the others would help, offering benefits to those who abandon their uprising and help recreate the Circle of Magi system, etc.

The complicated spot seems to be to find the spot between what is too harsh and what would be too lenient in this case.

Agreed.

There also needs to be discussion how templars themselves could also be monitored more closely so cases such as Meredith and other corrupt templars do not repeat themselves.

I don't think that's a problem that necessairly needs to be fixed, any system crumbles when incompetence rules and Elthina was fairly incompetent in her role, allowing things to escalate on both sides and refusing to assist the Seekers.

I'm also cautious about the 'generation or two' part as well.  An ideal plan would be to have a leader behind it, but it seems more likely any future leader would just stick with the harsher penalties since the person with the original plan wouldn't be alive in another one or two generations.

That's why they'd slowly be reintroduced throughout the main generation, perhaps a written document which is part of the Chantry. Think of the Circle as described in Asunder and you'd have an idea of what I'm imagining. It wasn't a complete nightmare but they had things like curfews and such to prevent any conspiring and rebellion.

It only went to **** when the Divine intervened in the favor of mages and slaughtered Templar.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 décembre 2013 - 03:58 .

[thetinyevil]

HiroVoid wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm talking about a quarantine building for people who are afflicted with a condition they have no control over and thus must be kept locked away for the good of all, including themselves.

They're not "work animals" because they're not forced to do anything in Circles, they're allowed to join groups and use their talents in way which benefit themselves or just do nothing and sleep all day. All the while, they're given food, shelter and what say you.

We can't slap them into the Circles and pretend their little childish rebellion meant nothing, we'd have to impose restrictions which prevent such a thing from happening again and lightly relieve them under the Circles return to "normal". Something which would take one or two generations of mages due to the stigma that will no-doubt remain on both sides.

A lot of the complaints about mages are things about dehumanizing them, thus my solution which they'd be able to interact with their family briefly. That way, they're not "dehumanized" but aren't exposed to their family in conditions which would cause emotional turmoil and feed them on a silver platter to a demon.

YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING THEM! Did you not read the whole thing? THEY WOULD NOT GET ANYMORE RIGHTS IN  A GENERATION OR TWO! MORE RIGHTS WOULD BE TAKEN FROM THEM!!! THEY WOULD BE MADE INTO WORK ANIMALS! 

Also MAGES CAN CONTROL THEIR ****ING POWER! THEY ARE NOT BOMBS WAITING TO GO OFF! 

So what plan would you set in place for both mages and templars in the future?  Also, the last part is debatable to a pont at least until mages get a full education.  When Wynne first saw her powers, she couldn't control it.  There was a practicing mage at least in his teens if not over 18 having a difficult time controlling his fire spell in the mage origins.

This is a large part of why many pro-mage supporters have argued the neccesity of at least requiring the circle for education as well as demon combatting.

Requried education for mages is a no brainer and doing a way with the harrowing since it doesn't work anyway, look at Uldred. Give mages a reason not to turn to blood magic and demons. After they are fully educated allow them to leave their school or stay if they want. But the mages do have to report bi-monthly to templars in whatever place they wind up to be tested for demons and blood magic. As they prove themselves make the visits monthly.

Mages will also help police themselves as well because one **** could ruin everything for every other mage.

Have templars or something close to them in communities to keep an eye on things but also to preform the tests.

Just a basic idea.

[thetinyevil]

@Dave Of Canada: If you can't see how what you are proposing is dehumanizing then you are an horrible human being and I feel sorry for you.

[Veruin]

So, how exactly do you test for demons/blood magic? A pinky swear that says they aren't?

[Dave of Canada]

thetinyevil wrote...

@Dave Of Canada: If you can't see how what you are proposing is dehumanizing then you are an horrible human being and I feel sorry for you.

Thank you.

Veruin wrote...

So, how exactly do you test for demons/blood magic? A pinky swear that says they aren't?

Grab blood samples and see which ones react to heated metal.

[Veruin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grab blood samples and see which ones react to heated metal.

I can't tell if you're joking.  Is that seriously the method they use?