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[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It becomes extreme though, once you realize that the mage rebellion doesn't threaten the existence of Thedas, but rather just the status quo.
Once you advocate the neuterization of thousands of people just to maintain the status quo, people are going to percieve that as extreme. Especially when there are more humane alternatives already presented.

It doesn't? It doesn't mean that there are literally tens of thousands of possible abominations running through of out the continent, it doesn't mean that for the first time in more then a thousand years there is a very real chance of a reborn imperium in the south? 

You can label this many things, and i think that the situation is very much a threat to the world...But that said.

That's their perspective, their morality.

Not mine.

You have your justice and i have mine.

So ultimately? If i had to kill, execute or make tranquil every mage that has joined the rebellion to make thedas peaceful? I would, If i had to compromise and make deals with the chantry, mages and templars to end the war? I would.

I am not opposed to non violent means mind you, i just view them as the most surefire means to success in this conflict.

Doing "whatever it takes" are considered by most an extreme view. And since mages have (probably) been in existance since the dawn of time, and that the Cirlce has only been in place the last 900 years, yet the world still got by previously, kinda proves that the world is not threatened by the mage rebellion. The status quo is.
I do think that the status quo is something worth preserving though, mind you. I just don't want to see any unecessary cruelty commited, just because it might work.

Again that's their perspective i suppose, But being an individual is like that; Having seperate views and ways to view the same issue.

The Era before the circle came into place isn't comparable to this situation for one major reason.

The various Hedge mages, Babarian Shamans and Witches never united underneath a single banner as they in this case, you never had the number of potential threats present, so you can agrue that this is in truth only a threat to the status quo of the continent when in my eye?

Its a threat to the security of the entire continent, The chantry isn't Thedas after all, a rebellion against their rule isn't seperate from the very real threat presented to the entirity of Thedas from Orlais to the Free marches, Nevarra, Antiva or any number of other nations.

So in my eye? Having the will to crush this threat to stabilty and peace isn't extremism.

Its practicality.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Arlathan and ancient Tevinter both had mages. The world did not cease to exist. Why should it now?

[Afro_Explosion]

This "solution" is practicality at a price are you willing to make the payoff?

[Master Warder Z_]

mx_keep13 wrote...

There will be abominations but not in those numbers, and there is no chance of a reborn imperium in the south, tevinter would hate the competition these new mages would bring. Demons are the real threat, and those that would consort with them, tranquilizing every mage would weaken thedas for the demon invasion your making it easy for them.

I really don't see how them not caring for a second imperium would make it incapable of occuring, its not as if they can divert their attention to the south at the moment.

And Really? By denying them the bodies to possess? Demons in physical form capable of manifesting themselves with out being summoned are a rarity, that however was before the veil was torn across the world; However that doesn't negate the fact that by denying them access to mages to posses you are severely weakening their capacity to make war upon Thedas.

And who stated i would tranqulize every mage? There are some certainly that would benifit from that role, the new cirlces will need the wealth provided by their services certainly but you cannot tranqulize every mage, some will need to be killed, others imprisioned and some let into the new circle.

That will be the compromise, blanket amensty for every non senior enchanter, and first enchanter, Apprentices, Mages those that make up the majority of the circle? I have no reason to seek their destruction when in fact i view them as the greatest resource of all if they can be controlled as one.

But that said; You can only offer them this compromise when their position of strength is negated, namely after they are defeated.

Crushing their rebellion must come before mercy after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Arlathan and ancient Tevinter both had mages. The world did not cease to exist. Why should it now?

The Imperium isn't an ideal example considering the world very nearly DID end as a result of their meddling.

And the elves? Well...There are examples enough of their meddling in ancient times present through out the game to present had the imperium not crushed them their consorting with demons, and spirits would have undoubtly done the same to their society regardless.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 24 décembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[Master Warder Z_]

mx_keep13 wrote...

This "solution" is practicality at a price are you willing to make the payoff?

If i advocate for it, why would i not be prepared to pay for it?

[thetinyevil]

Remember the story of the Pied Piper?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Arlathan and ancient Tevinter both had mages. The world did not cease to exist. Why should it now?

The Imperium isn't an ideal example considering the world very nearly DID end as a result of their meddling.

And the elves? Well...There are examples enough of their meddling in ancient times present through out the game to present had the imperium not crushed them their consorting with demons, and spirits would have undoubtly done the same to their society regardless.

Nevertheless your claim that the world is threatened by the rebellion of mages, is a false one. Therefore the measures you are willing to take, are done so on a false premise. Your claim that the entire world is threatened by the mages, seems more like a hollow rethorical attempt at justifying horrifying actions done against your enemies.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Arlathan and ancient Tevinter both had mages. The world did not cease to exist. Why should it now?

The Imperium isn't an ideal example considering the world very nearly DID end as a result of their meddling.

And the elves? Well...There are examples enough of their meddling in ancient times present through out the game to present had the imperium not crushed them their consorting with demons, and spirits would have undoubtly done the same to their society regardless.

Nevertheless your claim that the world is threatened by the rebellion of mages, is a false one. Therefore the measures you are willing to take, are done so on a false premise. Your claim that the entire world is threatened by the mages, seems more like a hollow rethorical attempt at justifying horrifying actions done against your enemies.

It is true if kirkwall was excuse for mages to turn into abomnations (95 %) well good luck in war time with peoples who want burn them for maker.Pretty much he is doing what templars do entire time with that difference that you approve this because well it is "necessary evil" which is pretty much justification as well simple what is a necessary evil is up to you if you care about excuse because i don't... Another difference that his solution is effective and may be kick the dog if you want but templars kick the dog anyway but they play with half-measures that caused that what we have today in thedas and many other destructive incidents.

So is that solution di*** well yes is that solution effective yes is templar solution di*** yes is effective i can say after what i saw hardly.

[thetinyevil]

In Kirkwall mages were pushed to the breaking point over and over again on top of that the veil was so thin in Kirkwall that it was all but non-exsitance.

[TheKomandorShepard]

thetinyevil wrote...

In Kirkwall mages were pushed to the breaking point over and over again on top of that the veil was so thin in Kirkwall that it was all but non-exsitance.

excuses there always will be at least few to do it...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 24 décembre 2013 - 11:15 .

[thetinyevil]

Sigh...I wasn't making excuses. Just stating facts. Such as people can only be pushed so far before the snap. On top of the unrelenting influence from the fade.

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...

In Kirkwall mages were pushed to the breaking point over and over again on top of that the veil was so thin in Kirkwall that it was all but non-exsitance.

The only mage who can be said to have been pushed to a breaking point and even then only used blood magic in self defense was Alain. Every other mage either had ulterior motives and used the Circle as an excuse or didn't even try to justify his/her behavior and it was Anders who then tried to claim the malevolent actions of these mages were the Templars' fault.

[TheKomandorShepard]

thetinyevil wrote...

Sigh...I wasn't making excuses. Just stating facts. Such as people can only be pushed so far before the snap. On top of the unrelenting influence from the fade.

It doesn't change nothing because still this is only excuse and they will exist always like "oh mage had depression" , "oh his uncle have cancer" ,"oh he was attacked by bandits" and 10000 others...

So best option to kill them all before world will  be destroyed...

[MisterJB]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
It doesn't change nothing because still this is only excuse and they will exist always like "oh mage had depression" , "oh his uncle have cancer" ,"oh he was attacked by bandits" and 10000 others...

Yes!

So best option to kill them all before world will  be destroyed...

No!

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
It doesn't change nothing because still this is only excuse and they will exist always like "oh mage had depression" , "oh his uncle have cancer" ,"oh he was attacked by bandits" and 10000 others...

Yes!

So best option to kill them all before world will  be destroyed...

No!

Well if you want destroy world and deliver more problems to thedas i guess then "No!" is good answer

[thetinyevil]

So mundane can protect themselves but mages just have sit back and take it. They have to let whoever rape, beat and torture them to their hearts content? Like the mages that were raped and tortured by Templars like Karras and Alirk. Or the ones who were beaten for talking to normal people. These things are only wrong if the victims are mundane, right?

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...

So mundane can protect themselves but mages just have sit back and take it. They have to let whoever rape, beat and torture them to their hearts content? Like the mages that were raped and tortured by Templars like Karras and Alirk. Or the ones who were beaten for talking to normal people. These things are only wrong if the victims are mundane, right?

Assuming that was meant for me, kindly put the strawman down. I did say that Alain learning blood magic could be justified. But he is the only one.
For instance, take Evelina. Anders claims that she became an Abomination because of the Templars. However, when talking to her, Evelina barely mentions the Templars. Rather, she is angry at Hawke for having becoming wealthy while many other ferelden refugees, which included the group she had protected, were starving in Dark Town. Therefore, she became an Abomination due to Anger and the Desire to see her children well; not because she was being abused in the Circle and needed to defend herself.
The same can be said of every blood mage in the game; they either had ulterior motives; such as Grace and her revenge on Hawke; or they used their powers to defend themselves only to use them to harm the innocent in the very next second; such as Orsino.
The only exception is Alain.

[thetinyevil]

It was rhetorical. But there is no point in arguing with refuses to admit that there was abuse happening in the circle even with the giant neon sighs pointing them out. Since people, wait mages aren't people sorry I forgot, got tortured and abused into insanity but they are mages so they deserved it.

[MisterJB]

Your antagonism is unnecessary and misdirected. Scour my posts if you wish, you'll see I have never claimed mages aren't people or that there weren't abuses.
What I am doing is pointing out the fact that if one were to analyse the actions and words of these mages you claim were "pushed into it", one would see that this claim holds very little water.
Perhaps you should attempt that rather than simply resorting to snark.

[thetinyevil]

That is what I got from your posts, that mages are not people and that they weren't abused that it was in their head. Also with those other mages I was reading between the lines it wasn't blatantly in your face but it was there.

[The Elder King]

thetinyevil wrote...

That is what I got from your posts, that mages are not people and that they weren't abused that it was in their head. Also with those other mages I was reading between the lines it wasn't blatantly in your face but it was there.

After reading the posts, and knowing MisterJB, I'd  the things you said weren't there . You are simply assuming that every pro-templars believe that there is no problem with mages being beaten or raped or abused.

[thetinyevil]

I won't lie, that is the impression I got.

[Hellion Rex]

thetinyevil wrote...

I won't lie, that is the impression I got.

Trust me, I am extremely pro Mage, and Mr. JB's not that bad. Granted, he is very pro Templar, but he hasn't ever advocated for the rape or abuse of mages. 

[thetinyevil]

Sorry in my eyes if you support the Templars then you advocate the rape and abuse of mages.