Aller au contenu

Photo

Mage and Templar Support Thread


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
891 réponses à ce sujet

#451
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

thetinyevil wrote...

Sorry in my eyes if you support the Templars then you advocate the rape and abuse of mages.


And in my eyes if you support the mages you support civil disorder, mass chaos and the ultimate destruction of orgnized society into the very least a rebirth of a southern imperium.

And that's assuming those mages just don't go wacko and turn into demon puppets before they can begin mass enslavement of each other and normal people not cursed with magic.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 24 décembre 2013 - 06:26 .


#452
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

hhh89 wrote...

@thetinyevil: Thekomandorshepard isn't pro-templar. He's both anti-mage and anti-templar.


Yeah, he just wants to watch the world burn pretty much 

#453
Angrywolves

Angrywolves
  • Members
  • 4 644 messages
Ashe Lady Insanity has some good videos she has made about mages and templars on youtube, so check those out if you haven't watched them yet.

#454
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

Angrywolves wrote...

Ashe Lady Insanity has some good videos she has made about mages and templars on youtube, so check those out if you haven't watched them yet.


She does indeed do some very good videos. 

#455
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

mx_keep13 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Dave of Canada. In one of the earlier posts he prepossed to make the circles hasher then they already are with mages having little to no rights at all. I doing this on an iPod so I can't link it but it is on the first or second page.

Ok, that's one name. What else you got?

Master Warden Z.


I only propose a restricted circle in the interim of the conflict mind you, i have no issue with it ultimately nearly resuming a pre rebellion standpoint...a century or two down the line.

#456
thetinyevil

thetinyevil
  • Members
  • 831 messages

Modifié par thetinyevil, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:39 .


#457
Iron Fist

Iron Fist
  • Members
  • 2 580 messages

thetinyevil wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Destroy them all and leave this world to the peasants!


Not helping. 
:P


It helps the peasants. :mellow:

Regicide is a little harder then you think. But not impossible. After all the royals are gone along with the mages and Templars then the peasants can inherit the world.


And we shall usher in an age of peace and sanity. B)

#458
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@thetinyevil: Thekomandorshepard isn't pro-templar. He's both anti-mage and anti-templar.


Yeah, he just wants to watch the world burn pretty much 


Not rly i want prevent it and thats my motives i won't hide behing excuses like "necessary evil" or morals all i care is my character business and both groups and danger for it.Mages because they proved that they are extremely destructive for everything around and world itself so as i said destruction of the world is bad for business.Templars simple they are corrupted ,incompetent religious fanatics of corrupted church what blocks progress of humans. 

So you have very narrow outlook that someone have to be pro-mage or pro-templar and lets be honest both group proved by not only morally exhausted (i don't care) and well prejudicial for world and mostly out-universe (real life) just throw crap how their groups are justified in extremism just to throw sh*** on person who pretty much isn't so very different pretty much pro-templars attacking anders how he dear be extremist killing "innocent" peoples to achieve his goal improving life of his kind whoa sound familiar because it should...
So im out i don't follow useless morals i follow what is beneficial for me...
 

#459
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

MevenSelas wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Destroy them all and leave this world to the peasants!


Not helping. 
:P


It helps the peasants. :mellow:

Regicide is a little harder then you think. But not impossible. After all the royals are gone along with the mages and Templars then the peasants can inherit the world.


And we shall usher in an age of peace and sanity. B)


Until a few hundred peasants decide they deserve to be the top of the food chain, then they'll gather followers among the thousads, build up their own empires and soon they would be the new nobility.

Add in that mages are still being born every day and you'll no longer have any mages who are fully trained who can help these mages, and you won't have templars around to keep mage criminals in check, so you'll have to reinstitute them, unless you advocate slaughtering children and/or family members who try to keep the kids safe, and we'll end up in the exact same situation Thedas is in now, only with different people and different names.

Unless the Qunari or Darkspawn kill everyone first.

#460
Veruin

Veruin
  • Members
  • 1 237 messages

thetinyevil wrote...

@eluvianix: Actually they seem to be the majority with a very small minority wanting to improve the system.


If you see them as the majority, then you must be intentionally seeking them out.  They are as much of a majority as the extremists are on the mage side.

#461
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

Veruin wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

@eluvianix: Actually they seem to be the majority with a very small minority wanting to improve the system.


If you see them as the majority, then you must be intentionally seeking them out.  They are as much of a majority as the extremists are on the mage side.


Justice will be tempered by mercy *nods*

#462
Iron Fist

Iron Fist
  • Members
  • 2 580 messages

dragonflight288 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Destroy them all and leave this world to the peasants!


Not helping. 
:P


It helps the peasants. :mellow:

Regicide is a little harder then you think. But not impossible. After all the royals are gone along with the mages and Templars then the peasants can inherit the world.


And we shall usher in an age of peace and sanity. B)


Until a few hundred peasants decide they deserve to be the top of the food chain, then they'll gather followers among the thousads, build up their own empires and soon they would be the new nobility.

Add in that mages are still being born every day and you'll no longer have any mages who are fully trained who can help these mages, and you won't have templars around to keep mage criminals in check, so you'll have to reinstitute them, unless you advocate slaughtering children and/or family members who try to keep the kids safe, and we'll end up in the exact same situation Thedas is in now, only with different people and different names.

Unless the Qunari or Darkspawn kill everyone first.


Shhh, keep your logic down. :D

#463
thetinyevil

thetinyevil
  • Members
  • 831 messages
Happy Holidays everyone. Have a wonderful day.

#464
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

MevenSelas wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MevenSelas wrote...

Destroy them all and leave this world to the peasants!


Not helping. 
:P


It helps the peasants. :mellow:

Regicide is a little harder then you think. But not impossible. After all the royals are gone along with the mages and Templars then the peasants can inherit the world.


And we shall usher in an age of peace and sanity. B)


Until a few hundred peasants decide they deserve to be the top of the food chain, then they'll gather followers among the thousads, build up their own empires and soon they would be the new nobility.

Add in that mages are still being born every day and you'll no longer have any mages who are fully trained who can help these mages, and you won't have templars around to keep mage criminals in check, so you'll have to reinstitute them, unless you advocate slaughtering children and/or family members who try to keep the kids safe, and we'll end up in the exact same situation Thedas is in now, only with different people and different names.

Unless the Qunari or Darkspawn kill everyone first.


Shhh, keep your logic down. :D


:lol:

Never!! :devil:

#465
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages
Why would the Qunari kill everyone? Isn't that prety much the exact opposite of their MO?

#466
Trolldrool

Trolldrool
  • Members
  • 223 messages
I admit I haven't read all 19 pages of this (at the point I'm writing this), so I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but could something akin to the Warders and Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time be implemented? I am well aware that the situation is completely different, among some that in Wheel of Time the Warders are practically bound by duty and honour to obey the mage they're assigned to protect in all things and that the Aes Sedai are never in danger of being possessed by demons that will endanger themselves and everyone around them.

What I meant was assign a templar and a mage at some point of an early age, perhaps before puberty if possible to be raised together in just about everything from meals to studies and prayer (if they're of the religious sort) from dawn and only to be separated to sleep in separate bedrooms. Kind of to indoctrinate (a very negative thing, I am aware) a bond of friendship and obligation to each other. From what we've seen in circles so far, the templars and mages live in so completely different worlds that they can scarcely imagine what it would be like to walk two feet in the others' shoes and are so distanced from each other that conflict is inevitable. By having them spend time together to get to know each other on a close personal level, perhaps some of that distance could be mended.

One obvious way this could backfire of course is if the mage becomes possessed and begins to mutate, the templar might hesitate. Or that the side that holds the most influence in the circle, templars most likely, will give the weaker side more obligations and more free reign to the child from their own ranks. Or a templar uprising against their peers to protect their assigned Wards.

It's mostly that the biggest contrast I see between Greagoir and Meredith as knight commanders is that Greagoir, despite his low opinion on magic and magi, trusts Irving more than any of his templars. If Irving says the tower has been cleansed, then Greagoir believes it and silences anyone who dare suggest Irving might be under the influence of a demon.

Meredith on the other hand works against Orsino at any time there is a conflict of interest and wouldn't trust him to cause a scorchmark if he threw a fireball into her office. And I would like to see more of the trust between Greagoir and Irving if possible. The closest we saw to that in Kirkwall were the redshirt templar and mages conspiring against Meredith, and Hawke killed them all.

The ones who up until recently controlled the circle fed lyrium to adolescent boys and girls and brainwashed them into thinking that it was their faith in the Maker that gave them their powers while simultaneously trying to control mages by telling them that they're wicked things that need to be watched at all times and obey the templars in every thing whilst turning a blind eye if a templar begins to abuse his or her influence in the hiercarchy.

If you're already past those moral boundaries, would it really be so difficult to brainwash them to support and depend upon each other and close the social distance that prevents them from gaining the sense of fellowship they already get from the group they belong to?

#467
Toasted Llama

Toasted Llama
  • Members
  • 1 478 messages
I'll be honest and haven't read all pages either, but I figured I'd give my shot at an idea to broker a better relationship between templars and mages.

Also, for the record; I'm not pro-mage and neither pro-templar. I support as much freedom as mages can possibly get and I also support templars keeping an eye out on mages to protect the lives of themselves as well as others.

It's a bit of a TL;DR post but I hope some people read it and ofcourse, discuss about it. If you think it doesn't work, don't hesitate to tell me and why and what may be an alternative.

In an utopia I would vouch for one single leader that puts his people's safety and well-being first, as well as several rights that count for everyone. Sadly, utopias do not exist and one person cannot possibly make all the best decisions, the same rule applies to Thedas.

Here's the thing; the problem with templars and mages is that one has more rights than the other. Templars have more rights than the other, this allows for corruption. And once this corruption is revealed, it leads to rebellion from the other side. Problem is, mages rebelling against templars is a huge problem. After all, mages are extremely powerfull and can be a danger to not only the people around them, but also to themselves. Can't say that templars are any better though, as they are often the ones to blame the whole rebellion started in the first place.

Now here's my idea, and the beginning of this is a hard pill to swallow for both pro-mages as well as pro-templars. I am very well aware of this but I see no other way. There have to be sacrifices. The thing is; you start with NO rights at all. None. As soon as is discovered you're a mage, you will be thrown into the circle. It's terrible, I know and you can't do anything about this, but you must accept that this is necessary and for the better of everyone. This is an attempt to prevent mages with a secret agenda to have the chance as early as possible.

Same counts for templars though, as soon as you are seen as a valid candidate as a templar, you will be recruited and you start at the bottom with no rights at all. I know this sounds harsh and cruel, but again, it's for the benefit of everyone. And it's not that unfair anyway; people that are born with magic are put into the circle and people that are born with templar qualities are put through templar training.

But! Fear not! Alot mages and templars might think "I'm not evil and I will definitely not turn against my people. But most importantly, I was born this way! I didn't choose this!". Now comes the bright side:

Anyone that proves they have indeed, no secret agenda and are willingly to help benefit other people are given more rights. If you prove that you are loyal and are able to controll your powers you will have more rights. More rights also include more freedom.
Should you, however, do something that is even the slightest hint towards "evil" or corruption, you will be taken a right and freedom away.
This does not have a limit and you can even rise above "normal" people if you prove yourself worthy enough.

The basic principle falls down to this: benevolent behaviour is being rewarded and bad behaviour is being punished. I won't mention what type of things you can do to prove yourself as there are many ways possible. The base lines are disobeying = punishment, obeying = reward. Not saying you should blindly follow; you can always discuss your orders in a civilized manner or talk with a higher rank/power if you think that you are being discriminated in one way or another. If you are correct; yay! You may disobey that order! If you are wrong, if you accept it; no problem. If you do not accept it: punishment.

In the end though, templars will still control mages. But, any mage that has proven himself enough, will be able to become part of a small team that controls templars and punishes them should they fall back to corruption. Not sure whether these mages should be taught bloodmagic among certain guidelines or not, that depends on how easy it is to keep blood magic safe.

I also want to add that a templar's first duty is to keep the mages themselves safe from harm. While mages are burdened with magic and could not choose this, templars and the "normal" people should be burdened with the protection of these mages and should allow and help them control their curse so that it can be seen as a gift instead.

End of my TL;DR post. You get a cookie if you read all of this! :P

#468
Gorkanus

Gorkanus
  • Members
  • 91 messages

Trolldrool wrote...

I admit I haven't read all 19 pages of this (at the point I'm writing this), so I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but could something akin to the Warders and Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time be implemented? I am well aware that the situation is completely different, among some that in Wheel of Time the Warders are practically bound by duty and honour to obey the mage they're assigned to protect in all things and that the Aes Sedai are never in danger of being possessed by demons that will endanger themselves and everyone around them.

What I meant was assign a templar and a mage at some point of an early age, perhaps before puberty if possible to be raised together in just about everything from meals to studies and prayer (if they're of the religious sort) from dawn and only to be separated to sleep in separate bedrooms. Kind of to indoctrinate (a very negative thing, I am aware) a bond of friendship and obligation to each other. From what we've seen in circles so far, the templars and mages live in so completely different worlds that they can scarcely imagine what it would be like to walk two feet in the others' shoes and are so distanced from each other that conflict is inevitable. By having them spend time together to get to know each other on a close personal level, perhaps some of that distance could be mended.

One obvious way this could backfire of course is if the mage becomes possessed and begins to mutate, the templar might hesitate. Or that the side that holds the most influence in the circle, templars most likely, will give the weaker side more obligations and more free reign to the child from their own ranks. Or a templar uprising against their peers to protect their assigned Wards.

It's mostly that the biggest contrast I see between Greagoir and Meredith as knight commanders is that Greagoir, despite his low opinion on magic and magi, trusts Irving more than any of his templars. If Irving says the tower has been cleansed, then Greagoir believes it and silences anyone who dare suggest Irving might be under the influence of a demon.

Meredith on the other hand works against Orsino at any time there is a conflict of interest and wouldn't trust him to cause a scorchmark if he threw a fireball into her office. And I would like to see more of the trust between Greagoir and Irving if possible. The closest we saw to that in Kirkwall were the redshirt templar and mages conspiring against Meredith, and Hawke killed them all.

The ones who up until recently controlled the circle fed lyrium to adolescent boys and girls and brainwashed them into thinking that it was their faith in the Maker that gave them their powers while simultaneously trying to control mages by telling them that they're wicked things that need to be watched at all times and obey the templars in every thing whilst turning a blind eye if a templar begins to abuse his or her influence in the hiercarchy.

If you're already past those moral boundaries, would it really be so difficult to brainwash them to support and depend upon each other and close the social distance that prevents them from gaining the sense of fellowship they already get from the group they belong to?


You mean like Cat and Dog whose if they are raised together from childhood are able to live together, even if dogs and cats doesnt like the other ? This could actually work.

#469
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

Toasted Llama wrote...

I'll be honest and haven't read all pages either, but I figured I'd give my shot at an idea to broker a better relationship between templars and mages.

Also, for the record; I'm not pro-mage and neither pro-templar. I support as much freedom as mages can possibly get and I also support templars keeping an eye out on mages to protect the lives of themselves as well as others.

It's a bit of a TL;DR post but I hope some people read it and ofcourse, discuss about it. If you think it doesn't work, don't hesitate to tell me and why and what may be an alternative.

In an utopia I would vouch for one single leader that puts his people's safety and well-being first, as well as several rights that count for everyone. Sadly, utopias do not exist and one person cannot possibly make all the best decisions, the same rule applies to Thedas.

Here's the thing; the problem with templars and mages is that one has more rights than the other. Templars have more rights than the other, this allows for corruption. And once this corruption is revealed, it leads to rebellion from the other side. Problem is, mages rebelling against templars is a huge problem. After all, mages are extremely powerfull and can be a danger to not only the people around them, but also to themselves. Can't say that templars are any better though, as they are often the ones to blame the whole rebellion started in the first place.

Now here's my idea, and the beginning of this is a hard pill to swallow for both pro-mages as well as pro-templars. I am very well aware of this but I see no other way. There have to be sacrifices. The thing is; you start with NO rights at all. None. As soon as is discovered you're a mage, you will be thrown into the circle. It's terrible, I know and you can't do anything about this, but you must accept that this is necessary and for the better of everyone. This is an attempt to prevent mages with a secret agenda to have the chance as early as possible.

Same counts for templars though, as soon as you are seen as a valid candidate as a templar, you will be recruited and you start at the bottom with no rights at all. I know this sounds harsh and cruel, but again, it's for the benefit of everyone. And it's not that unfair anyway; people that are born with magic are put into the circle and people that are born with templar qualities are put through templar training.

But! Fear not! Alot mages and templars might think "I'm not evil and I will definitely not turn against my people. But most importantly, I was born this way! I didn't choose this!". Now comes the bright side:

Anyone that proves they have indeed, no secret agenda and are willingly to help benefit other people are given more rights. If you prove that you are loyal and are able to controll your powers you will have more rights. More rights also include more freedom.
Should you, however, do something that is even the slightest hint towards "evil" or corruption, you will be taken a right and freedom away.
This does not have a limit and you can even rise above "normal" people if you prove yourself worthy enough.

The basic principle falls down to this: benevolent behaviour is being rewarded and bad behaviour is being punished. I won't mention what type of things you can do to prove yourself as there are many ways possible. The base lines are disobeying = punishment, obeying = reward. Not saying you should blindly follow; you can always discuss your orders in a civilized manner or talk with a higher rank/power if you think that you are being discriminated in one way or another. If you are correct; yay! You may disobey that order! If you are wrong, if you accept it; no problem. If you do not accept it: punishment.

In the end though, templars will still control mages. But, any mage that has proven himself enough, will be able to become part of a small team that controls templars and punishes them should they fall back to corruption. Not sure whether these mages should be taught bloodmagic among certain guidelines or not, that depends on how easy it is to keep blood magic safe.

I also want to add that a templar's first duty is to keep the mages themselves safe from harm. While mages are burdened with magic and could not choose this, templars and the "normal" people should be burdened with the protection of these mages and should allow and help them control their curse so that it can be seen as a gift instead.

End of my TL;DR post. You get a cookie if you read all of this! :P


Thing is, Templars aren't forcibly recruited or chosen from birth. It's a career that many can elect to to to enter. If you were a candidate for the templars, you are equally qualified to be in the army for your King/Queen of whatever country you live in, or a member of the city-guard.

Templars are nothing more than trained soldiers who fight for the Chantry's interests in Exalted Marches and protect the world from rogue mages, blood mages and abominations, or at least they're supposed to. Only difference between them and another soldier is one takes lyrium and works for the Chantry compared to the crown.

This leads to the can of worms that if you forcibly draft working men and women into the templars with no rights whatsoever, you are robbing communities of shop-keepers, farmers, and countries of soldiers.

#470
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages
Oh dear this system is so navie and ultimately ends there where it started on abuses and templars having absolute power and well on incompetence and many magical incidents... 

What even evil means it is chantry that which dictates morality and they are fanatics and hypocrites ignoring issues of corruption chantry proved that they don't care about mages so i don't have to tell how it will end when power is ultimately in their hands.

So in practice this you have to do what I want you to do and in return you will get freedom to do what the heck i want you to do.And when i state that you are "evil" or corrupted (you won't do what i the heck want you to do) i will take your freedom to do what the heck i want you to do... it exists already and it is called circle of mages :lol:  

Now it funny that you think that templars will be in charge and let mages punish them simple it will end only as theory like that templars protect mages or seekers punish templars for abuses... 

And now we have that no mage can be proved simple every mage can be easy victim of demon as we shown that is no problem for demon possess mage so simple trusted mages will never exist...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 25 décembre 2013 - 06:10 .


#471
Red Panda

Red Panda
  • Members
  • 6 943 messages
Would a triad of balance work to keep things in check?

Seekers watch Templars. Templars watch Mages. Mages watch Seekers.

For every mage there will be a seeker and a templar. All shall keep the other in check.

Perhaps that may create some balance where there is none.

#472
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX
  • Members
  • 2 518 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Qunari kill everyone? Isn't that prety much the exact opposite of their MO?


The Qunari wouldn't waste resources by killing everyone, they also have the right idea on how to control mages.

#473
Lord Raijin

Lord Raijin
  • Members
  • 2 777 messages
As a mage supporter I declare holy war against the Qunari for the way they treat their mages!

#474
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

Lord Raijin wrote...

As a mage supporter I declare holy war against the Qunari for the way they treat their mages!


Except you can't

#475
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

OperatingWookie wrote...

Would a triad of balance work to keep things in check?

Seekers watch Templars. Templars watch Mages. Mages watch Seekers.

For every mage there will be a seeker and a templar. All shall keep the other in check.

Perhaps that may create some balance where there is none.


Oh yeah wait that was current idea how well it worked well just see ;)

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Qunari kill everyone? Isn't that prety much the exact opposite of their MO?


The Qunari wouldn't waste resources by killing everyone, they also have the right idea on how to control mages.


Mages can't be controled and well redemption shows that they screws in doing that as well so murder is best solution.