891 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

@Jaison1986: hating a person doesn't mean that you should be okay with that person being sold into slavery, expecially if you're very against it, as Anders stated. And it's not justified if that someone 'insulted' you too. Fenris treated Merill far worse than he treated Anders (and the latter treated Merrill as bad as Fenris), yet Merrill is against selling him to slavery.
I don't agree with both Fenris's and Anders's views, since they are too 'extemistic', but the latter shown to be an hypocrite with the Danarius situation and the treatment of Merrill. Fenris not.
For the record, if Fenris would've done something similar to what Anders did in the case you sell Fenris, I'll be saying the same thing that I said about Anders.

[Toasted Llama]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
I don't see where it is written that you have to be painfully naive to be here.

You assume that thinking of ideas to create a better relationship that benefits both mages as well as templars as naive, but that is exactly what this thread is about.

Well you are type of guy who see black dude and white dude fighting and you start screaming "you racist leave him alone" don't you?Do you even know what is hate and now you are trying assign emotion to me what makes things personal and my reasons are different.

I am not the type of guy that will scream "you racist, leave him alone" but instead will scream "can't you solve this in a civilized manner?" I don't take sides; I consider both parties. And yes, I know very well what hate is, considering it blinds you in believing this:

So i will point that once again.
Are mages dangerous for thedas?
asnswer is yes

Which is definitely not true. You believe this because you are biased.

So that inquisitor want get rid off demons mean that s/he hates them?

too emotionally my friend

He wants to get rid of them because they are actively posing a threat to Thedas. They are actively kiling people. Mages aren't actively trying to kill everyone in Thedas. Most mages don't even want to kill everyone and alot can controll their powers to not do that.

At this point I don't even know if you're actively trying to troll or not.

[duckley]

helo89 wrote...

Mages are people. People will do bad things and good things, without magic, (our world being the obvious example, 2 world wars and not a spell to be seen and in DA Rendon Howe). Even if every mage were to disappear from Thedas evil and bad things wouldn't disappear with them. People would just do their evil without magic.

My primary issue with the mage circle system as divised by the chantry is that it is ineffective.
The harrowing doesn't prevent blood mages from rising so much as it just culls those mages who aren't strong magically or mentally. (remember you are not told in the mage origin what you must do in the fade its sink or swim). Also failed in its stated goal e.g. the Uldred ****-up.

In the land where the white divine rules.The power of the templars is not uniform e.g. the rite of tranquility. Karl is harrowed mage therefore he should not have been made tranquil under chantry law.

But in Kirkwall he is. Meaning that depending the templars merely interpret the law as they see fit. Another example, on the other end is Ser Carver who let Malcolm Hawke escape the circle. The circles have no legitimate way for mages the vent their grievances. (Membership in the fraternities just seems like a good way to get yourself noticed and then tranquiled IMO.)

And don't get me started on the 'brilliant' idea of having who are essentially addicts having life and death power over people who have no choice but to submit to their authority.

ITA - the problem lies with people - the imperfection of men/women- the good or bad choices they make. Templars are people too - making good and bad choices as well. The challenge is that mages have a power that makes them more of a potential threat than the ordinary citizen. My question is what makes one mage seemingly impervious to temptation/possesion and others not so much?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Toasted Llama wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
I don't see where it is written that you have to be painfully naive to be here.

You assume that thinking of ideas to create a better relationship that benefits both mages as well as templars as naive, but that is exactly what this thread is about.

Well you are type of guy who see black dude and white dude fighting and you start screaming "you racist leave him alone" don't you?Do you even know what is hate and now you are trying assign emotion to me what makes things personal and my reasons are different.

I am not the type of guy that will scream "you racist, leave him alone" but instead will scream "can't you solve this in a civilized manner?" I don't take sides; I consider both parties. And yes, I know very well what hate is, considering it blinds you in believing this:

So i will point that once again.
Are mages dangerous for thedas?
asnswer is yes

Which is definitely not true. You believe this because you are biased.

So that inquisitor want get rid off demons mean that s/he hates them?

too emotionally my friend

He wants to get rid of them because they are actively posing a threat to Thedas. They are actively kiling people. Mages aren't actively trying to kill everyone in Thedas. Most mages don't even want to kill everyone and alot can controll their powers to not do that.

At this point I don't even know if you're actively trying to troll or not.

1.Yes it is impossible like natzi with jews relationship and put first to control second.Humans always will hate different people and well mages are way to different... Only way is brainwash them and even brainwashing doesn't always work and it won't in that case.

2.Yeah right internet hero syndrome . Yeah i guess you can read peoples emotions in internet...

3.Blight , Zathrian curse , Abomnations and other incidents caused by mages end of the story you are too naive even to see that so i can tell that you are one biased.

4.Haha ignoring both games that speak otherwise than you and rampaging mages lets go to territory i didn't wanted to do that but i did jowan , connor , meredith sister they didn't wanted kill peoples but they did they caused huge destruction.So yes mages threatening thedas in any moment of their lifes and what they did to that moment
beautifully confirms this.

Deal with that mages are unstable nuclear bombs if they want it or not destruction caused by them only proves that and i proved it from you i hear only accusations that i hate them.

And no im not troll still i hear many times that someone try tell me that im im guess peoples can see only pro-templars and pro-mages and i mock both.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 décembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[Toasted Llama]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Yes it is impossible like natzi with jews relationship and put first to control second.Humans always will hate different people and well mages are way to different... Only way is brainwash them and even brainwashing doesn't always work and it won't in that case.

Really...? You're comparing the templar-mage issue with the national socialists-jew issue? ... You've GOT to be joking. And well, in the end, the national socialists's were punished for their murderous beliefs, so maybe we should just punish the Chantry as well.

 EDIT: the short term for german national socialists is banned? Really...?

2.Yeah right internet hero syndrome . Yeah i guess you can read peoples emotions in internet...

I find it amazing that you no longer believe that people actually prefer diplomacy over violence.
Can't really call hate an emotion. More of a biased opinion.

3.Blight , Zathrian curse , Abomnations and other incidents caused by mages end of the story you are too naive even to see that so i can tell that you are one biased.

And normal people waging war against eachother and humans raping and killing Zathrian's people ofcourse is not as bad as magic. *AHEM*

There's plenty of examples of normal people with WEAPONS instead of magic that have proven to be a true danger as well.

4.Haha ignoring both games that speak otherwise than you and rampaging mages lets go to territory i didn't wanted to do that but i did jowan , connor , meredith sister they didn't wanted kill peoples but they did they caused huge destruction.So yes mages threatening thedas in any moment of their lifes and what they did to that moment
beautifully confirms this.

Your logic is severely flawed: some mages went insane ergo all mages are insane.

Here's another one: Vaughn brutally raped and murdered elves ergo all humans are murderers and rapists.

Oh and another one: The Chantry is corrupted and evil ergo everyone following the Chantry is evil and corrupted.

Let's not forget this one: Loghain let everyone at Ostagar die for his own benefit ergo no human can be trusted as they will let you die anyway.

Ooorrr this one: Alistair is whiny ergo all humans are whiny.

What about this one: King Cailan blindly believed in the Grey Wardens and was a fool, ergo the entire Theirin bloodline consists of fools.

Maybe this one is nicer: Templars get their asses kicked by powerfull mages ergo all templars are terrible at combat.

Deal with that mages are unstable nuclear bombs if they want it or not destruction caused by them only proves that and i proved it from you i hear only accusations that i hate them.

Bioware disagrees with you apparently as I have yet to see them wipe out all mages. Surely they must have some proof to back up their own story, right?

And no im not troll still i hear many times that someone try tell me that im im guess peoples can see only pro-templars and pro-mages and i mock both.  

Go mock at Bioware's door. "ME NO LIKE MAGES. MAGES BAD. REMOVE FROM GAME. NOW. "

Modifié par Toasted Llama, 26 décembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[The Baconer]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Well, I gave my two cents. I myself never sold Fenris to Danarius, though I don't blame Anders for feeling the way he does. My final point is that this simply about personal hate and not principles, when it comes to Fenris and Anders, and none of them is really better then the other.

It's absolutely about principles. What good is some hack utilitarian manifesto when it only extends to the people that you like or that you can tolerate? How utterly fraudelent. Never mind that this "personal hate" between the two never moved beyond verbal bickering. That's like if some Circle mage cussed out a Templar, and then gets Tranquilized in return, apparently we can't really make any judgement because it was just personal, right?

Modifié par The Baconer, 26 décembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
And obedience to the Chantry/Order will trump their mandate in most cases. The qualities prized in recruits include being a bot ready to follow orders over first thinking on their mandate and morals.

And the Chantry in each nation is, usually, biased in favor of the nation it is located in which means national wellfare would be on their priorities and thus that of the Order.

I don't care about "a few corrupt ones", its unavoidable, but understand this: As it is, the templars are an extension of the Chantry, which is an extension of Orlais.

 I contest that. There is not sufficient evidence that indicates the Chantry as a whole is biased in favor of Orlais. We have seen cases of the Divine taking the stance of the Emperor; which is understandable, give that he lives next door; but we have also seens cases of Grand Cleric refusing to abide by an order of the Divine if it became prejudicial to the population of the states they resided in.
Two examples would be Grand Cleric Elthina who refused to abandon Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric at the time of Ferelden's occupation who supported Maric when the tide turned in his favor despite the reigning Divine's Pro-Orlais stance. 

So say Orlais doesn't like the leg up Nevarra has with its much freer mages in some industry, and a research project they want to do is blocked for dubious reasons. The vested interest is apparent and the mages can't appeal? And if they did appeal, who are the going to appeal to? The organization who wants their project blocked?

 Perhaps the Chantry is concerned with the degree of political influence nevarran mages hypothetically exert which contributes towards making the Templars guarding them as effective as those in Tevinter. Which is to say, Templars serving mages rather than guarding them.
In which case, allowing the final word to rest with the Chantry whether these projects are necessary for the wellbeing of mages or not is a good idea.

And the suspicion the templars have of mages doesn't promote their advancing the public good in most cases. I'm not giving them veto power.

Suspicion of mages is rather healthy for non-mages and has consistently lead to the improvement of their quality of life.

And I'm telling you that templar oversight is not a guarantee of fair and just oversight, not even close, thus their word can't be final on anything. Plus, regulating lyrium and magi projects isn't their role in the first place and never should be.
No, they shouldn't. That's the problem now. Circle guard duty? Absolutely. Having say in how circle are run? No. That's what's happening now, it doesn't work, and according to WoT, its a violation of the Nevarran Accord anyway. Its got to go.

The role of the Templars is to ensure that magic serves man rather than rule him. As you know, "ruling" is not a concept that automatically carries violence with it which also means that the duties of the Templars should not be restricted to preventing rampaging abominations but also ensuring that magic does not rule man either militarely, politically or economically. And all of this requires an active participation in the policies of the Circle.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 décembre 2013 - 07:14 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Toasted Llama wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Yes it is impossible like natzi with jews relationship and put first to control second.Humans always will hate different people and well mages are way to different... Only way is brainwash them and even brainwashing doesn't always work and it won't in that case.

Really...? You're comparing the templar-mage issue with the national socialists-jew issue? ... You've GOT to be joking. And well, in the end, the national socialists's were punished for their murderous beliefs, so maybe we should just punish the Chantry as well.

 EDIT: the short term for german national socialists is banned? Really...?

2.Yeah right internet hero syndrome . Yeah i guess you can read peoples emotions in internet...

I find it amazing that you no longer believe that people actually prefer diplomacy over violence.
Can't really call hate an emotion. More of a biased opinion.

3.Blight , Zathrian curse , Abomnations and other incidents caused by mages end of the story you are too naive even to see that so i can tell that you are one biased.

And normal people waging war against eachother and humans raping and killing Zathrian's people ofcourse is not as bad as magic. *AHEM*

There's plenty of examples of normal people with WEAPONS instead of magic that have proven to be a true danger as well.

4.Haha ignoring both games that speak otherwise than you and rampaging mages lets go to territory i didn't wanted to do that but i did jowan , connor , meredith sister they didn't wanted kill peoples but they did they caused huge destruction.So yes mages threatening thedas in any moment of their lifes and what they did to that moment
beautifully confirms this.

Your logic is severely flawed: some mages went insane ergo all mages are insane.

Here's another one: Vaughn brutally raped and murdered elves ergo all humans are murderers and rapists.

Oh and another one: The Chantry is corrupted and evil ergo everyone following the Chantry is evil and corrupted.

Let's not forget this one: Loghain let everyone at Ostagar die for his own benefit ergo no human can be trusted as they will let you die anyway.

Ooorrr this one: Alistair is whiny ergo all humans are whiny.

What about this one: King Cailan blindly believed in the Grey Wardens and was a fool, ergo the entire Theirin bloodline consists of fools.

Maybe this one is nicer: Templars get their asses kicked by powerfull mages ergo all templars are terrible at combat.

Deal with that mages are unstable nuclear bombs if they want it or not destruction caused by them only proves that and i proved it from you i hear only accusations that i hate them.

Bioware disagrees with you apparently as I have yet to see them wipe out all mages. Surely they must have some proof to back up their own story, right?

And no im not troll still i hear many times that someone try tell me that im im guess peoples can see only pro-templars and pro-mages and i mock both.  

Go mock at Bioware's door. "ME NO LIKE MAGES. MAGES BAD. REMOVE FROM GAME. NOW. "

1.I just compared how situation is simple peace is impossible at least in way that one side will end unharmed and not abused differences are too big.And humans always will be monsters.

2.Hate is an emotion as well love but you don't have to hate someone to hurt that person.

3.Yeah peoples are harmful as well but difference is between i can rape someone and i can cause end of the world to declare war you rly need huge number of peoples mage can do something as damaging or even more alone and not intentionally.And unlike normal person mage can't be controled.

4.Some is understatement most is much better term so well not some but most...
Now you accusing me in very dramatic way that i judge group or race because actions of one unit not most...

5.Bio job isn't being pro-mage or pro-templar only create game so i don't see point if you want end of the world support mages sure i don't care if thats what you want have it but that devs put that option in game doesn't mean that they are pro-mages.

6.Why i should yell that i want mages remove from game i want option just play may way and be effective in realistic (to certain degree) dark fantasy not just naive high fantasy. 

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Anders doesn't have any credibility. The fact that he practically cackles with glee if you sell Fenris to slaving blood mage confirms this.

And I'm sure that Fenris would do the same if you surrendered Anders to the templars knowing that he will become tranquil or be executed. It goes both ways.

Fenris reacting like that, wouldn't go 100% agaisnt everything he has been preaching throughout the game. Anders on the other hand proves himself the eternal hypocrit and a short-sighted fool.

Had Bioware made this happen.... The tables have turned. In a side quest you have the option to take Anders to the gallows and surrender him to Templar authority.They've acknowledge that he will be made tranquil, and Fenris approves of the idea and smiled as Anders is being taken to the Circle. I'm curious in wondering how would you react over Fenris decision to have Hawke betray Anders by giving him to the Chantry authority?

Fenris is the definition of a hypocrit. He wants everyone else to protect him against his slavers yet he refuses to help the mages get their freedom. Now that is hypocrit for you.

[Hellion Rex]

@MisterJB, I agree with you that at the national level, Chantries are pretty biased in favor of their home countries. Nevarra and Rivain were both toeing the line when it came to mages but no move was made by their national Chantry to regulate their cultural magic practices towards more Chantry approved magic practices. At least prior to Dairsmuid.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

so what you are saying is that if you hate someone you will sell them into slavery and you wont feel bad about doing it?

cause if thats the case I am seriously fearful of anyone around you.

No no no... You see slavery IS bad.. But if you REALLY hate someone, then it is totally okay to sell them to an abusive slavemaster.

Clearly, Fenris should have thought of that before he became a slave.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
And the Chantry in each nation is, usually, biased in favor of the nation it is located in which means national wellfare would be on their priorities and thus that of the Order.

Have you read The Stolen Throne?

I contest that. There is not sufficient evidence that indicates the Chantry as a whole is biased in favor of Orlais. We have seen cases of the Divine taking the stance of the Emperor; which is understandable, give that he lives next door; but we have also seens cases of Grand Cleric refusing to abide by an order of the Divine if it became prejudicial to the population of the states they resided in.
Two examples would be Grand Cleric Elthina who refused to abandon Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric at the time of Ferelden's occupation who supported Maric when the tide turned in his favor despite the reigning Divine's Pro-Orlais stance.

And after reading The History of Kirkwall and The Stolen Throne, you don't believe the Chantry is in bed with Orlais??? If you don't believe it after that, I can't convince you. Its pretty obvious to me that they are. When Orlesian interests are under fire, the Chantry steps in to help, or blocks those that would subvert the Empire. The Divine thinks Elthina is in danger, so she invites her to Orlais. She doesn't remove Meredith from power does she? No, and she can't . Orlais would have a fit. And the Chantry took Ferelden's side only when it looked like they were going to win. A few supportive local, homegrown clerics and mothers don't mean anything in the larger scheme of things. The Chantry supported Orlais until the end when if they didn't they'd go down in flames too.

Perhaps the Chantry is concerned with the degree of political influence nevarran mages hypothetically exert which contributes towards making the Templars guarding them as effective as those in Tevinter. Which is to say, Templars serving mages rather than guarding them.

And if Nevarra has no problem with mages having some influence? Why does the Chantry or Templar Order get to curb it, and do it through blocking projects that could be beneifical to Nevarra? And if templars are just guards like they're supposed to be i.e. concerned only about abominations, demons, and renegades that escape the circle or apostates outside circle borders, they've got no business with mage lyrium use and mage projects. That is to be regulated elsewhere. Can templars check projects, make sure mages are doing what they say they're doing with it? Yes, I that's a necessity IMO. But decide which projects mages can and can't do because they think the mages have too much influence, and they don't like it? Hell no. Back at square one. The Templars cannot control the Circle that way. Its what they do now, and its doesn't work. If templars are prevented from doing their job effectively in Nevarra, that circle is in violation of the law, and steps based on agreed upon regulation will be taken against them. But no arbitrary power is given to the templars.

In which case, allowing the final word to rest with the Chantry whether these projects are necessary for the wellbeing of mages or not is a good idea.

No, the final word should not rest with the Chantry either. They're tied to Orlais' purse strings. A decision is made from looking at the regulations, from looking at the law on the matter, law that is agreed to by all parties. If its not in violation of the law, its fine.

Suspicion of mages is rather healthy for non-mages and has consistently lead to the improvement of their quality of life.

And its led to sucky circles of magi and a revolutionary war with templars and mages fighting it out in the streets if they have to, and that certainly endangers mundane everywhere.

The role of the Templars is to ensure that magic serves man rather than rule him. As you know, "ruling" is not a concept that automatically carries violence with it which also means that the duties of the Templars should not be restricted to preventing rampaging abominations but also ensuring that magic does not rule man either militarely, politically or economically. And all of this requires an active participation in the policies of the Circle.

And having some influence in politics and economics means mages will rule over everybody else? And nope, the templars cannot have authority in the circles. That's the problem now. They cannot "watch" the mages. You will have another war on your hands in no time. They're guards, that's it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 décembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[lil yonce]

eluvianix wrote...
@MisterJB, I agree with you that at the national level, Chantries are pretty biased in favor of their home countries. Nevarra and Rivain were both toeing the line when it came to mages but no move was made by their national Chantry to regulate their cultural magic practices towards more Chantry approved magic practices. At least prior to Dairsmuid.

Only because they don't have the power to. The Rivaini nobility doesn't like hedge mage influence either, they just can't end it. And if the Chantry goes against something Nevarra wants, likely they'll be kicked out of the country. And The Calling demonstrates the possible extent of Orlesian interests in the Chantry/Templars/Circles. An Orlesian First Enchanter with Orlesian templars backing him up in Ferelden who's worked out a deal for Orlais with the Architect. These are easily Orlesian institutions, and if I'm anyone but Orlais, I'm not letting the templars or Chantry control my circle.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 décembre 2013 - 08:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Anders doesn't have any credibility. The fact that he practically cackles with glee if you sell Fenris to slaving blood mage confirms this.

And I'm sure that Fenris would do the same if you surrendered Anders to the templars knowing that he will become tranquil or be executed. It goes both ways.

Fenris reacting like that, wouldn't go 100% agaisnt everything he has been preaching throughout the game. Anders on the other hand proves himself the eternal hypocrit and a short-sighted fool.

Had Bioware made this happen.... The tables have turned. In a side quest you have the option to take Anders to the gallows and surrender him to Templar authority.They've acknowledge that he will be made tranquil, and Fenris approves of the idea and smiled as Anders is being taken to the Circle. I'm curious in wondering how would you react over Fenris decision to have Hawke betray Anders by giving him to the Chantry authority?

Fenris is the definition of a hypocrit. He wants everyone else to protect him against his slavers yet he refuses to help the mages get their freedom. Now that is hypocrit for you.

First of all, the example you describe would NOT go 100% everything Fenris stands for. Fenris (probably. I don't believe he ever specifies) supports the Rite of Tranquility. And he believes weak mages are dangerous. Fenris consdiered Anders weak, which I am inclined to agree with, and so it would be very much living up to his own words to approve of Anders being handed over to the Circle.
And as a matter of fact, Fenris never really wants Hawke's help in any of his quests, except for the last one with Danarius. In all the other quests, Hawke just offers to come along, and Fenris accepts the help. So even that Fenris wins out over Anders, since Anders is so pathetically co-dependant.

And enver mind that the Circle isn't a slavery, so Fenris' dislike of slavery isn't even applicable to the Circles, which once again is a point in the favor of Fenris.

Bottom line: Fenris is a man who actually lives up to his own words. Anders is a miserable failure, who only adhere to his own principles when it is convenient.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 26 décembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Lazy Jer]

Regarding the original post, send the whole ding dang lot of 'em, Templars AND Mages to the Deep Roads and have them kill darkspawn for a couple of months. If they can't get along after that there's no hope.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Anders doesn't have any credibility. The fact that he practically cackles with glee if you sell Fenris to slaving blood mage confirms this.

And I'm sure that Fenris would do the same if you surrendered Anders to the templars knowing that he will become tranquil or be executed. It goes both ways.

Fenris reacting like that, wouldn't go 100% agaisnt everything he has been preaching throughout the game. Anders on the other hand proves himself the eternal hypocrit and a short-sighted fool.

Had Bioware made this happen.... The tables have turned. In a side quest you have the option to take Anders to the gallows and surrender him to Templar authority.They've acknowledge that he will be made tranquil, and Fenris approves of the idea and smiled as Anders is being taken to the Circle. I'm curious in wondering how would you react over Fenris decision to have Hawke betray Anders by giving him to the Chantry authority?

Fenris is the definition of a hypocrit. He wants everyone else to protect him against his slavers yet he refuses to help the mages get their freedom. Now that is hypocrit for you.

First of all, the example you describe would NOT go 100% everything Fenris stands for, in my opinion. Fenris (probably. I don't believe he ever specifies) supports the Rite of Tranquility. And he believes weak mages are dangerous. Fenris consdiered Anders weak, which I am inclined to agree with, and so it would be very much living up to his own words to approve of Anders being handed over to the Circle.
And as a matter of fact, Fenris never really wants Hawke's help in any of his quests, except for the last one with Danarius. In all the other quests, Hawke just offers to come along, and Fenris accepts the help. So even that Fenris wins out over Anders, since Anders is so pathetically co-dependant.

And enver mind that the Circle isn't a slavery, so Fenris' dislike of slavery isn't even applicable to the Circles, which once again is a point in the favor of Fenris.

Bottom line: Fenris is a man who actually lives up to his own words. Anders is a miserable failure, who only adhere to his own principles when it is convenient.

Fixed for you.

And yes, just to drop here, the circle is slavery. Mages are denied basic freedoms, are at the complete mercy of their masters and must obey what they order. Slavery at it's finest.

[MisterJB]

No, the Circle is most certainly not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said that he does not consider the Circle to be slavery.
Mages have freedoms and rights that must be respected and they are not forced to do anything beyond staying in the Circle. Mages are not slaves, period.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Fixed for you.

And yes, just to drop here, the circle is slavery. Mages are denied basic freedoms, are at the complete mercy of their masters and must obey what they order. Slavery at it's finest.

It has nothing to do with opinion. Fenris believes the Circles are necesary to control mages. Anders is not in a Circle. Therefore it would not be against what Fenris says if he were to approve of Anders being handed over to the Circle. Opinion has nothing to dowith this. It is analytical fact.

And no. The Circles are NOT slavery. And you obviosuly fail to comprehend exactly what slavery is. First of all mages are NOT considered property, and are NOT at the complete mercy of the Templars. So your ONLY point falls apart just there. So we won't even ahve to go into how the amges aren't forced into hard manual labor, or even forced to do ANYTHING after they've passed their Harrowing.

So yeah, but no..... The Circles are not slavery.

[AresKeith]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Fixed for you.

And yes, just to drop here, the circle is slavery. Mages are denied basic freedoms, are at the complete mercy of their masters and must obey what they order. Slavery at it's finest.

I really wish people would stop with that

The circle is NOT slavery, it was created because mages are in fact dangerous

Has the circle become more strict towards mages and needs a few changes, yes. But it is NOT Slavery

[Hellion Rex]

Being denied basic rights doesn't necessarily translate to slavery. Granted, they are caged, but it is not slavery. They aren't forced to do a damn thing beside stay in the Circle and take a Harrowing. That's it.

[Jaison1986]

MisterJB wrote...

No, the Circle is most certainly not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said that he does not consider the Circle to be slavery.
Mages have freedoms and rights that must be respected and they are not forced to do anything beyond staying in the Circle. Mages are not slaves, period.

Link or it didn't happened

And denying the right of ever leaving the circle is unaceptable and unhuman on it's own. And the so called freedoms and rights the mages have are many times denied or ignored if it's for the benefit of their Templars masters. If if you deny them as slaves, they are still made prisioner simply for existing. This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

[Hellion Rex]

Jaison1986 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

No, the Circle is most certainly not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said that he does not consider the Circle to be slavery.
Mages have freedoms and rights that must be respected and they are not forced to do anything beyond staying in the Circle. Mages are not slaves, period.

Link or it didn't happened

And denying the right of ever leaving the circle is unaceptable and unhuman on it's own. And the so called freedoms and rights the mages have are many times denied or ignored if it's for the benefit of their Templars masters. If if you deny them as slaves, they are still made prisioner simply for existing. This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

I'll vouch for him, it did happen. And being denied basic rights DOES NOT ALWAYS translate to slavery. They are locked within a Circle tower, but they are not slaves.

Modifié par eluvianix, 26 décembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

No, the Circle is most certainly not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said that he does not consider the Circle to be slavery.
Mages have freedoms and rights that must be respected and they are not forced to do anything beyond staying in the Circle. Mages are not slaves, period.

Link or it didn't happened

And denying the right of ever leaving the circle is unaceptable and unhuman on it's own. And the so called freedoms and rights the mages have are many times denied or ignored if it's for the benefit of their Templars masters. If if you deny them as slaves, they are still made prisioner simply for existing. This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

I'll vouch for him, it did happen. And being denied basic rights DOES NOT ALWAYS translate to slavery. They are locked within a Circle tower, but they are not slaves.

And even then they aren't completely denied basic rights

[The Baconer]

Jaison1986 wrote...
 This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

We don't have to live with metahumans, or metaelves... or metacows, so I don't think it's equatable.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.