891 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Templars holding power is up for debate - its not clear whether or not they can do it as an order, but it doesn't matter in the end. Meredith has an army Kirkwall needs. She uses that leverage to hold the position of Viscount. Right or no right, right or wrong. She can do it. That's how politics work.

Templar's are not suppose to get themselves involved in polical affairs. They're there to protect the city against bad mages,  not bad politicians.

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself." - Knight-Commander Guylian

Youth4Ever wrote...

And there was an investigation - Leliana. I don't think even the Divine can pull a fast one and have a full-fleged public investigation and Meredith removed no questions asked. Again, too much vested interest to do that, and if someone pisses off Meredith too much, the templars split from the chantry on an accelerated time table.

Leliana was there only to investigate the mages and to make the finial determination whether or not exalted marches was approperiate course of action.

Youth4Ever wrote...
That wasn't an order. Elthina was leaning on her respect and goodwill as Grand Cleric to control Meredith. If she was disliked or a nobody, Meredith can do whatever she wants. But because Elthina is respected, Meredith has to listen to her or pay the price politically. Too many people support Elthina for Meredith to just ignore her.

You're wrong. It has nothing to do with respect. Elthina was the Grand Cleric and therefour was Meredith's boss. It was Elthina that promoted Meredith to Knight-Commander... She could very well demote her, if she truly wanted to take that course of action. She could of done something about what her Knight-Commander was doing to the city, and didn't do jack.

Youth4Ever wrote...

Yes, Anders was. He did not give peace a chance at all. He said he was removing the chance of compromise because there was none. Dumb. And he started nothing. That's giving him way too much credit. Adrian caused the rebellion.

And you don't think there were mages who saw the problems with the Circle and were working in other ways to fix it? Mages like Wynne, templars like Thrask, Chantry officials like the Divine? And why don't you blame the Aequitarians, the Loyalists and their alliance that dominated the College of Magi and kowtowed to the Chantry since its been in existence? Why don't you condemn the mages for not doing a thing at  College of Magi like they're supposed to. Asunder page 336-337 says they don't. They chit-chat and hang out. There have absolutely been other alternatives, and nothing can be 100% blamed on the Chantry. I don't understand how you can claim its all their fault.

What are you talking about? He did too give peace a chance. He suggested
this right after you give him the rejection papers of the tranquil
solution signed by Grand Cleric Elthina, and was going to speak to
Elthina even furthur.

Anders/Adrian may've caused the rebellion but it is the Chantry that started the war. The Chantry hates magic and therefour hates mages. They do not shy away to remind people that it was mages who was responsible for the first blight, and that it was the evil mages who became the first darkspawn after they were beamed down from the black city with the curse from the Maker. This is why the mages are feared upon. It's the Chantries indoctrination that causes far more damage.

When was the last time the Chantry (prior to Asunder) ever did something nice to the mages in their circles? For everything that the mages do to the Chantry and to everyone else during times of needs?

"I speak of mages. The Chant of Light says, 'Magic exists to serve mankind, and not to rule over him.' And so it has been. The mages have served us well, in many wars over many centuries, yet in times of peace how well have we served them? We mean them no harm, yet have we not harmed them even so?" - Divine Justinia V Asunder Chapter 2

[EmperorSahlertz]

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

[Hellion Rex]

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

The peasants should bow down to their Mage superiors.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

No you see, peasants are like FREE and stuff, they like totally made a choice to be poor dude! Mages are opressed man. They should revolt or something dude... Yeah, free the people!... Err... I mean the mages! Yeah! Free the mages!

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
First of all, the example you describe would NOT go 100% everything Fenris stands for. Fenris (probably. I don't believe he ever specifies) supports the Rite of Tranquility. And he believes weak mages are dangerous. Fenris consdiered Anders weak, which I am inclined to agree with, and so it would be very much living up to his own words to approve of Anders being handed over to the Circle.
And as a matter of fact, Fenris never really wants Hawke's help in any of his quests, except for the last one with Danarius. In all the other quests, Hawke just offers to come along, and Fenris accepts the help. So even that Fenris wins out over Anders, since Anders is so pathetically co-dependant.

And enver mind that the Circle isn't a slavery, so Fenris' dislike of slavery isn't even applicable to the Circles, which once again is a point in the favor of Fenris.

Bottom line: Fenris is a man who actually lives up to his own words. Anders is a miserable failure, who only adhere to his own principles when it is convenient.

Anders is not a weak mage. If he was then Irving would've spotted this and request to have him made tranquil, even after his 7th escape. Despite his reaklessness Irving did not believe that Anders poses any serious threat. Fenris doesn't even know what a weak mage is so how does he know what a weak mage looks like? or behave or act? He doesn't even know what hes talking about. Being a former slave to a mage does not qualifty him to professionally  analyze Anders. He was speaking in a matter of an opinion, and should only be treated as such.

Fenris not only used Hawke at the beginning, to kill his slavers, but also wanted Hawke to help him to deal with Danarius.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 26 décembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[Iron Fist]

Screw the peasants and the mages. And the templars for that matter.

What about the elves? My people have been oppressed since time immemorial.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think the elves need to be oppressed more

You're a racist!

[Hellion Rex]

MevenSelas wrote...

Screw the peasants and the mages. And the templars for that matter.

What about the elves? My people have been oppressed since time immemorial.

Nope. No one cares about the elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Anders/Adrian may've caused the rebellion but it is the Chantry that started the war.

Despite your opinion on the rest of this, which you are entitled too even if I disagree with parts, this sentence is factually wrong. The Mage-Templar War was started when the Fraternities decided to abolish the Circle of Magi. While Templar actions did bring to pass this action, this was the official declaration that started the war. To use American history, the rebels were fighting British soldiers before the Declaration of Independence was signed, and yet that document is what officially started the Revolutionary War. Same with this sutuation. Templars and mages were already fighting, but the abolishment of the Circle of Magi is what made that conflict an official war.

[Hellion Rex]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Anders/Adrian may've caused the rebellion but it is the Chantry that started the war.

Despite your opinion on the rest of this, which you are entitled too even if I disagree with parts, this sentence is factually wrong. The Mage-Templar War was started when the Fraternities decided to abolish the Circle of Magi. While Templar actions did bring to pass this action, this was the official declaration that started the war. To use American history, the rebels were fighting British soldiers before the Declaration of Independence was signed, and yet that document is what officially started the Revolutionary War. Same with this sutuation. Templars and mages were already fighting, but the abolishment of the Circle of Magi is what made that conflict an official war.

I think he means more in line with, "this war has been a long time coming." At least that's how I perceive it.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Anders/Adrian may've caused the rebellion but it is the Chantry that started the war.

Despite your opinion on the rest of this, which you are entitled too even if I disagree with parts, this sentence is factually wrong. The Mage-Templar War was started when the Fraternities decided to abolish the Circle of Magi. While Templar actions did bring to pass this action, this was the official declaration that started the war. To use American history, the rebels were fighting British soldiers before the Declaration of Independence was signed, and yet that document is what officially started the Revolutionary War. Same with this sutuation. Templars and mages were already fighting, but the abolishment of the Circle of Magi is what made that conflict an official war.

I think he means more in line with, "this war has been a long time coming." At least that's how I perceive it.

That's correct. It was the Chantry that caused this war to happen due to systemic abuse.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Anders/Adrian may've caused the rebellion but it is the Chantry that started the war.

Despite your opinion on the rest of this, which you are entitled too even if I disagree with parts, this sentence is factually wrong. The Mage-Templar War was started when the Fraternities decided to abolish the Circle of Magi. While Templar actions did bring to pass this action, this was the official declaration that started the war. To use American history, the rebels were fighting British soldiers before the Declaration of Independence was signed, and yet that document is what officially started the Revolutionary War. Same with this sutuation. Templars and mages were already fighting, but the abolishment of the Circle of Magi is what made that conflict an official war.

I think he means more in line with, "this war has been a long time coming." At least that's how I perceive it.

That's correct. It was the Chantry that caused this war to happen due to systemic abuse.

Ah, my apologies for misinterpreting your statement then. But I will agree that Templar oppression is what led the mages to make this decision. I was just saying that a thousand years from now when little Thedasian kids study history and come to the Mage-Templar War, the books will state that it started with the abolishment of the Circles. Now whether the Templar treatment of mages is ignored or more uniformally villainified will depend on who wins the conflict.

[Lazy Jer]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Ah, my apologies for misinterpreting your statement then. But I will agree that Templar oppression is what led the mages to make this decision. I was just saying that a thousand years from now when little Thedasian kids study history and come to the Mage-Templar War, the books will state that it started with the abolishment of the Circles. Now whether the Templar treatment of mages is ignored or more uniformally villainified will depend on who wins the conflict.

Heh...that depends on who wins the war.

[thetinyevil]

I wonder how big a role the Mage-Templar will actually play in Inquisition.

[Iron Fist]

thetinyevil wrote...

I wonder how big a role the Mage-Templar will actually play in Inquisition.

I think it will be ancillary to the main plot (Veil tear investigation).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lazy Jer wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Ah, my apologies for misinterpreting your statement then. But I will agree that Templar oppression is what led the mages to make this decision. I was just saying that a thousand years from now when little Thedasian kids study history and come to the Mage-Templar War, the books will state that it started with the abolishment of the Circles. Now whether the Templar treatment of mages is ignored or more uniformally villainified will depend on who wins the conflict.

Heh...that depends on who wins the war.

Did I amuse you? 
If the Templars win, then the mages will be made to look as bad as the Tevinter mages who entered the Golden city and released the darkspawn. If the Mages win, the Templars will all be made out to be Alriks and Merediths. If a compromise is reached, then it will probably stay mostly fctual.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

MevenSelas wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

I wonder how big a role the Mage-Templar will actually play in Inquisition.

I think it will be ancillary to the main plot (Veil tear investigation).

Yeah, it will be like the Loghain situation in Origins. Important and will be addressed, but not the most central component of the game.

[AresKeith]

thetinyevil wrote...

I wonder how big a role the Mage-Templar will actually play in Inquisition.

It's basically a side-plot like the other conflicts in the game

[MisterJB]

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

You can say that again. As I played through DA2, I kept wondering why I should give a damn about the mages while there were still people living in Darktown.

[Iron Fist]

MisterJB wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

You can say that again. As I played through DA2, I kept wondering why I should give a damn about the mages while there were still people living in Darktown.

I had a similar thought about the elves in Lowtown.

[dragonflight288]

Finally finished reading up to the present since I last posted, and it looks like things got heated for a bit.

Templar's are not suppose to get themselves involved in polical affairs. They're there to protect the city against bad mages, not bad politicians.

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself." - Knight-Commander Guylian

No one disagrees with you that templars are not supposed to have the political power Meredith had, but Youth4Ever pointed out that like it or not, Meredith did have it because she had the largest army, and the Divine/Chantry as a whole had very little motivation to remove her because it strengthened their own influence in the area, or if they did, they would get some very serious political repercussions from Celene and the Orlesian government, because Meredith has kept things stable for Orlesian trade since Meredith helped remove the previous Viscount before Dumar who made things very tough for Orlesian interests in Kirkwall, but she wasn't disagreeing with you about what is correct for the situation, merely stating that it was the reality.

Leliana was there only to investigate the mages and to make the finial determination whether or not exalted marches was approperiate course of action.

Did we play the same game? I've made this argument before, and I'll make it again....we have no idea whether or not Leliana was going to call for an Exalted March or if she was simply going call for a Seeker presence or any other sort of action. It was Elthina who feared the possibility of an exalted march, and Leliana is exceptionally vague on the details when she meets Hawke in "Faith." She only tells Hawke all the information required to do what Elthina asked Hawke and Sebastian to do, and doesn't give a scrap of information more than that.

I can see why people would believe Leliana to be incompetent, but I saw the exact opposite in how little information she actually gave me, and how she specifically did NOT give me information on what the Divine was planning, only that action may be required. Heck, since I beat the game once before downloading Sebastian's content, I had no idea that there was a resolutionist fraternity before Leliana told me about them. So that showd me there are factors at work that Hawke neversaw, and since Hawke didn't see them, that means that I as a gamer never saw them either.

It's crappy writing and filler that I want a lot more expanded upon, but that's what I got out of it since I beat the game without that content once before playing it again with it.

You're wrong. It has nothing to do with respect. Elthina was the Grand Cleric and therefour was Meredith's boss. It was Elthina that promoted Meredith to Knight-Commander... She could very well demote her, if she truly wanted to take that course of action. She could of done something about what her Knight-Commander was doing to the city, and didn't do jack.

I agree with both you and Youth4Ever, despite you both disagreeing, to an extent. Yes, at this point, the Chantry IS over the Templar Order, and can issue orders to the templars and Seekers. Heck, the Seekers of Truth codex specifically say that the Seekers answer ONLY to the Divine, aka the Chantry, and that they watch the Templars. It is also the Chantry that controls the lyrium trade so the Templars have to play ball with the Chantry in order to get their lyrium. And a Knight-Commander doesn't have legal authority to call for an Annulment, they need a Grand Cleric's or the Divine's permission first. In the absence of them, only on the most bare-bone technicalities, like Kirkwall after the Chantry blew up, would a Knight-Commander have the legal authority to call for one, whether or not they have the justification.

However, the templars and seekers were the original Inquisition, and joined up with the Chantry in a manner similar to how the Circle's were organized, through a treaty, and as such are also an independent organization that can choose to null and void that treaty, which Lambert does in Asunder at the end by decreeing the Nevarran Accord to be void, and they always had the power to do so. And they are a military organization, so they have a clear chain-of-command, with Knigh-Divine being the highest Rank. Not Grand Cleric, not Divine, but Knight-Divine, or Knight-Vigilant in a certain area.

That means they are a separate entity from the Chantry, even if they are reliant upon them, and in many instances, subservient to them.

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Link or it didn't happened

http://social.biowar...01812/9#6909711

You can argue that "slavery" has a concept that exists apart from Mr.Gaider's conceptions but the main writer himself believes that the system he wrote is not a form of slavery.

And denying the right of ever leaving the circle is unaceptable and unhuman on it's own.

Should there be an outbreak of the Black Death in your area, should I assume you'd be against Quarantining the infected?

And the so called freedoms and rights the mages have are many times denied or ignored if it's for the benefit of their Templars masters.

 Perhaps but the same is true of anyone else in the world. My freedoms and rigths rely upon the forces of authority being willing to respect and enforce them.
Therefore, the mages are no different in that regard from everyone else in the world.

If if you deny them as slaves, they are still made prisioner simply for existing. This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

They are placed in a luxurious tower where they are given free food, clothing and an education which makes their standard of living far above that of the average peasant in Thedas. All of this because there is the possibiltiy they might be possessed and become a veritable storm of sadism and destruction that will destroy the lives of said peasants. How many children were left orphans in Redcliff because Isolde couldn't let go of her son?
It seems to me to be a very reasonable system.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 décembre 2013 - 11:24 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

MisterJB wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

You can say that again. As I played through DA2, I kept wondering why I should give a damn about the mages while there were still people living in Darktown.

People starving in the sewers?= nobody cares. A mage flower has his freedom oppressed for good reasons?= a big deal