891 réponses à ce sujet

[Toasted Llama]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.I just compared how situation is simple peace is impossible at least in way that one side will end unharmed and not abused differences are too big.And humans always will be monsters.

Except that jews and germans get along perfectly fine as soon as the rulers of the national socialists got taken down. Don't compare these two circumstances as they are completely different.

2.Hate is an emotion as well love but you don't have to hate someone to hurt that person.

Hate is established on an opinion.

3.Yeah peoples are harmful as well but difference is between i can rape someone and i can cause end of the world to declare war you rly need huge number of peoples mage can do something as damaging or even more alone and not intentionally.And unlike normal person mage can't be controled.

Bull****.

4.Some is understatement most is much better term so well not some but most...
Now you accusing me in very dramatic way that i judge group or race because actions of one unit not most...

You can't prove statistically that most mages are bad and cannot be controlled. Your argument has no footing to stand on.

5.Bio job isn't being pro-mage or pro-templar only create game so i don't see point if you want end of the world support mages sure i don't care if thats what you want have it but that devs put that option in game doesn't mean that they are pro-mages.

Except that, at some point, your choices no longer matter as they are going to be retconned and Bioware is going to stick to their canon. The fact that Bioware made Fiona officialy start the mage-templar war, rallying rebelling mages everywhere and being unable to stop Anders blowing up the Chantry shows that they are most certainly pushing the mage-templar issue in one direction.

6.Why i should yell that i want mages remove from game i want option just play may way and be effective in realistic (to certain degree) dark fantasy not just naive high fantasy. 

If you choose to rid Thedas of all magic/mages, then expect it to get retconned.

[Hazegurl]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

Fenris is exactly the same. He lets petty hated cloud his judgment on the last straw. If you don't get him to at least 50% friendship/rivalry, he sides with the templars to slaughter the mages, despite being there and knowing the mages did nothing wrong and didn't deserved their fate. He let his own selfish impulses drive his actions. The mages in Kirkwall are not like the magisters in Tevinter, but what does he care?

Fenris does not pride himself on his principles, nor does he preach incesantly about them. So Fenris does not fail to live up to his own word. Anders however is a miserable failure.

This is ridiculous. If there is one thing Fenris aways do, is to preach all the time of how much mages suck and need to be put in their place. Whenever Hawke calls him on his bullsh*t and tells him not all mages are the same, he keeps going to his excuse the mages are aways an carbon copy of Tevinter magisters.

You've just contradicted yourself here. If Fenris admits that not all are the same then why do you think he is saying all are the same? He is obviously talking about weak minded foolish mages who turn to demons the moment it is convenient. heck he wasn't even wrong. Even when you side with mages you still have to fight their abominations in the street.

And not liking someone's opinion is not a justifiable reason to enjoy them being enslaved. Anders is just a hypocritical ass.

[Jaison1986]

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

Link or it didn't happened

http://social.biowar...01812/9#6909711

You can argue that "slavery" has a concept that exists apart from Mr.Gaider's conceptions but the main writer himself believes that the system he wrote is not a form of slavery.

And denying the right of ever leaving the circle is unaceptable and unhuman on it's own.

Should there be an outbreak of the Black Death in your area, should I assume you'd be against Quarantining the infected?

And the so called freedoms and rights the mages have are many times denied or ignored if it's for the benefit of their Templars masters.

 Perhaps but the same is true of anyone else in the world. My freedoms and rigths rely upon the forces of authority being willing to respect and enforce them.
Therefore, the mages are no different in that regard from everyone else in the world.

If if you deny them as slaves, they are still made prisioner simply for existing. This is an insult to everything that being human stands for. 

They are placed in a luxurious tower where they are given free food, clothing and an education which makes their standard of living far above that of the average peasant in Thedas. All of this because there is the possibiltiy they might be possessed and become a veritable storm of sadism and destruction that will destroy the lives of said peasants. How many children were left orphans in Redcliff because Isolde couldn't let go of her son?
It seems to me to be a very reasonable system.

Whatever helps Gaider sleep at night. But I know what I see.

Oh, how pretty, now you are comparing magic to an disease, let me tell you, diseases spread and destroy everything they touch without discrimination. But an mage chooses if they want to use their magic to destroy or not. Quite the difference if you ask me.

That's true, abuses exist everywere, but it doesn't make what the mages suffer in an daily basis any less terrible.

You don't get it. I'm not against the circle. It is needed. Mages do need to be trained, and had Connor being trained properly, all of that could be avoided, but that doesn't mean they should be denied such basic things like leaving the tower, experiencing the world, living an actual life. Nor being watched over by bunch of raging zealots that can easily rape, kill and abuse you over the slightest mistakes.

[Lord Raijin]

Threat300 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The circle is nasty slavery isn't it, where mages have a roof over their heads, are well educated & have meals every night. Alot worse then being a illiterate free peasant that can easily die of starvation if they don't find work.

Well... They should obviously have thought about that before they CHOSE to be peasants! Right?

Won't anyone think of the poor peasants rather then the spoiled mages

You can say that again. As I played through DA2, I kept wondering why I should give a damn about the mages while there were still people living in Darktown.

People starving in the sewers?= nobody cares. A mage flower has his freedom oppressed for good reasons?= a big deal

At least this pretty little mage flower is doing something to help the starving people in the sewers whereas the Templar's nor the Chantry does jack about it.



The Chantry is big enough to provide shelter for these people, but do you think they bring in the cox's and welcome these poor people with warm welcoming hands? Hell no! Leave them in Darktown to rot while the Grand Cleric has a queen size comfortable bed to sleep on.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 26 décembre 2013 - 11:50 .

[Hazegurl]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders is not a weak mage.

Even Merrill is stronger than Anders.

Fenris doesn't even know what a weak mage is so how does he know what a weak mage looks like? or behave or act?

Yet he never claims he does. He simply asks for any other solution to dealing with mages who are potential problems, and because no one can know for sure who will be a danger and who isn't then the Circles are the better option. 

Being a former slave to a mage does not qualifty him to professionally  analyze Anders. He was speaking in a matter of an opinion, and should only be treated as such.

And yet even Anders himself admits that he's only proving everyone right about mages.

Fenris not only used Hawke at the beginning, to kill his slavers, but also wanted Hawke to help him to deal with Danarius.

Fenris didn't know Hawke and Hawke was just someone taking a job. Both Hawke and Fenris were using each other. Hawke also has the option to reject Fenris's help as payment. If you chose to no longer help Fenris he will willingly leave your party. 

What Fenris does not do is demand your help and use friendship as blackmail. He doesn't lie to you even if you hate him for his opinions, and he doesn't use you after years of being your companion. Gee, I wonder who does do all of those things.   

[drake heath]

Well, if they were in there then he probably would have blown them all up with the rest of the temple.

[Hazegurl]

Lord Raijin wrote...
The Chantry is big enough to provide shelter for these people, but do you think they bring in the cox's and welcome these poor people with warm welcoming hands? Hell no! Leave them in Darktown to rot while the Grand Cleric has a queen size comfortable bed to sleep on.

Actually the sisters were housing orphans in the Chantry but they kept leaving.

@Drake, and then Raijin would call them a necessary casualty for mage freedom.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 26 décembre 2013 - 11:54 .

[Lord Raijin]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
The Chantry is big enough to provide shelter for these people, but do you think they bring in the cox's and welcome these poor people with warm welcoming hands? Hell no! Leave them in Darktown to rot while the Grand Cleric has a queen size comfortable bed to sleep on.

Actually the sisters were housing orphans in the Chantry but they kept leaving.

Where did you hear that? Which NPC indicated this?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Im pretty sure some chantry sisters talk about trying to help but having their help rejected by the residents of darktown.

[Lord Raijin]

Threat300 wrote...

Im pretty sure some chantry sisters talk about trying to help but having their help rejected by the residents of darktown.

The Chantry sisters are too busy yelling at the street children rather than to get their pretty uniforms dirty in Darktown.

[Hazegurl]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
The Chantry is big enough to provide shelter for these people, but do you think they bring in the cox's and welcome these poor people with warm welcoming hands? Hell no! Leave them in Darktown to rot while the Grand Cleric has a queen size comfortable bed to sleep on.

Actually the sisters were housing orphans in the Chantry but they kept leaving.

Where did you hear that? Which NPC indicated this?

if you go into the Chantry at certain points you can overheard the sisters inside talking about getting the children to stay inside the Chantry but they kept rejecting their help. One of the lines is:
"Why won't they let us help them?"

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
The Chantry is big enough to provide shelter for these people, but do you think they bring in the cox's and welcome these poor people with warm welcoming hands? Hell no! Leave them in Darktown to rot while the Grand Cleric has a queen size comfortable bed to sleep on.

Actually the sisters were housing orphans in the Chantry but they kept leaving.

Where did you hear that? Which NPC indicated this?

if you go into the Chantry at certain points you can overheard the sisters inside talking about getting the children to stay inside the Chantry but they kept rejecting their help. One of the lines is:
"Why won't they let us help them?"

I've also heard the line.

To answer the Chantry sisters question though, and this is just my personal opinion, is that they saw Evelina go to the Circle and turn herself in after helping them, and got locked up, and was probably abused by the templars there, and likely grew distrustful of the Chantry itself, since it was a mage who was helping them.

Add in that this was also the very same time Ser Mettin was going around with a Templar Death Squad, appointed by Meredith, to kill mage sympathizers, often in the broad daylight and on the streets, and since they were helped by a mage and supported one who ended up becoming an abmoination, they were also probably fearful for their safety.

But we can't say the Chantry wasn't trying to help them either. And most of what I said is supposition anyway, so I may well be wrong, but at the same time, it makes sense considering the atmosphere Kirkwall was in at the time.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

Im pretty sure some chantry sisters talk about trying to help but having their help rejected by the residents of darktown.

The Chantry sisters are too busy yelling at the street children rather than to get their pretty uniforms dirty in Darktown.

Not every chantry member is a horrible person you know

[Jaison1986]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders is not a weak mage.

Even Merrill is stronger than Anders.

Fenris doesn't even know what a weak mage is so how does he know what a weak mage looks like? or behave or act?

Yet he never claims he does. He simply asks for any other solution to dealing with mages who are potential problems, and because no one can know for sure who will be a danger and who isn't then the Circles are the better option. 

Being a former slave to a mage does not qualifty him to professionally  analyze Anders. He was speaking in a matter of an opinion, and should only be treated as such.

And yet even Anders himself admits that he's only proving everyone right about mages.

Fenris not only used Hawke at the beginning, to kill his slavers, but also wanted Hawke to help him to deal with Danarius.

Fenris didn't know Hawke and Hawke was just someone taking a job. Both Hawke and Fenris were using each other. Hawke also has the option to reject Fenris's help as payment. If you chose to no longer help Fenris he will willingly leave your party. 

What Fenris does not do is demand your help and use friendship as blackmail. He doesn't lie to you even if you hate him for his opinions, and he doesn't use you after years of being your companion. Gee, I wonder who does do all of those things.   

How is that fair? Merrill is an blood mage, of course she is more powerful.

Anders proves to who? The mindless zealots at the chantry that started this mess by abusing the mages in first place? Anders started an bloody campaign to overthrow an abusive leadership, in an very similar fashion of Andraste herself with the imperium. She didn't wrote an strongly worded letter to get what she wanted, and she was hailed an hero by the Andrastian nations despite all the bloodshed she instigated.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 27 décembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[dragonflight288]

How is that fair? Merrill is an blood mage, of course she is more powerful.

She also has a much larger knowledge of demons and how to combat them.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active things, like running or jumping!

And she also has a much more effective way of determining if someone is an abomination or not, as in the case of Kerran. She'll examine his blood and determine he's clean. Anders just blasts him with magic and calls it good, despite the fact that a powerful demon like Desire or Pride would just bide their time and not respond to an attack like a Rage demon would.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Toasted Llama wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.I just compared how situation is simple peace is impossible at least in way that one side will end unharmed and not abused differences are too big.And humans always will be monsters.

Except that jews and germans get along perfectly fine as soon as the rulers of the national socialists got taken down. Don't compare these two circumstances as they are completely different.

2.Hate is an emotion as well love but you don't have to hate someone to hurt that person.

Hate is established on an opinion.

3.Yeah peoples are harmful as well but difference is between i can rape someone and i can cause end of the world to declare war you rly need huge number of peoples mage can do something as damaging or even more alone and not intentionally.And unlike normal person mage can't be controled.

Bull****.

4.Some is understatement most is much better term so well not some but most...
Now you accusing me in very dramatic way that i judge group or race because actions of one unit not most...

You can't prove statistically that most mages are bad and cannot be controlled. Your argument has no footing to stand on.

5.Bio job isn't being pro-mage or pro-templar only create game so i don't see point if you want end of the world support mages sure i don't care if thats what you want have it but that devs put that option in game doesn't mean that they are pro-mages.

Except that, at some point, your choices no longer matter as they are going to be retconned and Bioware is going to stick to their canon. The fact that Bioware made Fiona officialy start the mage-templar war, rallying rebelling mages everywhere and being unable to stop Anders blowing up the Chantry shows that they are most certainly pushing the mage-templar issue in one direction.

6.Why i should yell that i want mages remove from game i want option just play may way and be effective in realistic (to certain degree) dark fantasy not just naive high fantasy. 

If you choose to rid Thedas of all magic/mages, then expect it to get retconned.

1.I pointed **** not germans generally and differences were smaller...

2.Not rly hate affect on opinion but isn't opinion itself it is emotion. 

3.Problem? i stated only truth and i pointed proves.

4.I can because games show it clearly every game have more than one disaster caused by mages so well i can.

5.Well so i can tell that about pro-mages choices and you don't know about bio canon even if killing mages will end in 3 game without possibility to import i can live with that because well that certain solution that solves problem.

6.I doubt that they can retcon so big choice at worst they won't let us import with such option.  

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
Whatever helps Gaider sleep at night. But I know what I see.

Clearly not slavery. They have freedoms and rights, they are not considered proprierty, they are not forced to work.
How are they slaves?

Oh, how pretty, now you are comparing magic to an disease, let me tell you, diseases spread and destroy everything they touch without discrimination. But an mage chooses if they want to use their magic to destroy or not. Quite the difference if you ask me.

But that choice can be taken away from them by means of demonic possession. Magic can very much be considered to be a latent disease that can be activated through stress.
It's not the fault of the carrier but it is very much true. Are you against Quarantine?

That's true, abuses exist everywere, but it doesn't make what the mages suffer in an daily basis any less terrible.

It makes them no different from the majority of Thedas and it means they shouldn't be granted special attention.

You don't get it. I'm not against the circle. It is needed. Mages do need to be trained, and had Connor being trained properly, all of that could be avoided, but that doesn't mean they should be denied such basic things like leaving the tower, experiencing the world, living an actual life. Nor being watched over by bunch of raging zealots that can easily rape, kill and abuse you over the slightest mistakes.

Without those restrictions, the Circle is pointless. By turning it into a school, you may reduce the number of Abominations but you train mages in their advantage. Magic is an advantage that surpasses mundanes means in almost every aspect of life and the people with the most advantages, naturally and gradually, accumulate pwoer until they are dominant. If mages are free, it is only a matter of time until non-mages are second class citizens.
It may be just like the Imperium or it may be different but it is inevitable.

Also, you greatly overstate the power Templars have. Even in Kirkwall, Alrik and Karras had to conceal their crimes which suggests they feared punishment. And Alain says "This is much worse than Strarkhaven. The templars beat us and no one says a thing."
That means that in Starkhaven, either the templars didn't beat the mages or that someone said something against it.
The Circles are not some pit of abuse.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 décembre 2013 - 12:21 .

[MisterJB]

Merril is a stronger mage than Anders because she at least knows better than letting a denizen of the Fade turn you into a meat sack.
Fenris is referring to strenght of character, not potential for destruction. And Merricl is a much better person than Anders; if nothing else, because she doesn't spend seven years preaching how every person in Thedas deserves freedom and then decides to sell someone into slavery just because he was mean to her.

[Hazegurl]

@dragonflight288- that makes sense. Kirkwall was just a hot mess of a place and those kids probably had no idea who to trust. Although a part of me thinks they probably used the Chantry sisters whenever things got too bad but overall enjoyed the freedom of Darktown.

@Jaison- Merrill is stronger in terms of understanding that there is no such thing as a safe spirit. She's not a moron like Anders who just allowed herself to get possessed. I'm not saying I approve of her using blood magic but she is not on Anders level of supidity. Heck I don't even trust the spirit inside Wynne. Especially based on what happens in Asunder, but I don't consider that canon.  

Comparing the way Anders examines for demons vs Merrill it's obvious that he had no idea what he's doing messing around with demons to begin with.  

Anders admits that he is walking abomination that proves everyone who fears mages right by being the very thing they are afraid of.  of course he's using that piece of truth as manipulation for terrorism but he knew he could use it cause it's the truth.

[AresKeith]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Whatever helps Gaider sleep at night. But I know what I see.

You mean stating the facts that you don't wanna accept?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

To answer the Chantry sisters question though, and this is just my personal opinion, is that they saw Evelina go to the Circle and turn herself in after helping them, and got locked up, and was probably abused by the templars there, and likely grew distrustful of the Chantry itself, since it was a mage who was helping them. 

Disregarding the giant leap of logic we would have to make, to presume that Evelina was mistreated in the Circle, since nothing whatsoever seems to indicate such. The lines in question can appear as early as act 1, where Evelina is still alive and living in Darktown.

Jaison1986 wrote...

Whatever helps Gaider sleep at night. But I know what I see.

Obviously not...

Jaison1986 wrote...

Oh, how pretty, now you are comparing magic to an disease, let me tell you, diseases spread and destroy everything they touch without discrimination. But an mage chooses if they want to use their magic to destroy or not. Quite the difference if you ask me.

An Abomination outbreak can certainly be compared to an outbreak of an extremely virulent and deadly virus. In such cases, we quarentine people, even on the mere suspecion of infection.

Jaison1986 wrote...

That's true, abuses exist everywere, but it doesn't make what the mages suffer in an daily basis any less terrible.

It may not make it less terrible persay. But it means that we really shouldn't focus on it.

If everyone in the world were lined up every tuesday, and got kicked in the nuts, then why exactly should we focus on the poor mages who got kicked in the nuts? They are still having better general living conditions than everybody else, and they don't suffer any slights that any peaasnts doesn't also. So why exactly does the amges in particular, with their greater than average quality of life, deserve improvement in their life so urgently, when tehre are thousands of peasants who suffer far worse conditions daily?

Jaison1986 wrote...

You don't get it. I'm not against the circle. It is needed. Mages do need to be trained, and had Connor being trained properly, all of that could be avoided, but that doesn't mean they should be denied such basic things like leaving the tower, experiencing the world, living an actual life. Nor being watched over by bunch of raging zealots that can easily rape, kill and abuse you over the slightest mistakes.

Yeah... Templars can't "easily" do all those things. As a matter of fact, in all of the FEW examples we have of such Templar behavior (I wonder how these few examples ever became the percieved norm...), the Templars in question went to great lenghts to hide their deeds from the superiors.

[dragonflight288]

Disregarding the giant leap of logic we would have to make, to presume that Evelina was mistreated in the Circle, since nothing whatsoever seems to indicate such. The lines in question can appear as early as act 1, where Evelina is still alive and living in Darktown.

Ah, I heard it in Act 3 so that kind of colored my perception.

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...
Clearly not slavery. They have freedoms and rights, they are not considered proprierty, they are not forced to work.
How are they slaves?

Mages are extremely limited in their freedoms and rights because their prisoners of the Chantry. They may not be slaves and viewed as property, but it's damn well close to it... especially the way they treat pregnate mages. They don't even let the mothers bond with their newborn child because the templar's takes the baby away and given to the Chantry to raise.

MisterJB wrote...

Merril is a stronger mage than Anders
because she at least knows better than letting a denizen of the Fade
turn you into a meat sack.
Fenris is referring to strenght of
character, not potential for destruction. And Merricl is a much better
person than Anders; if nothing else, because she doesn't spend seven
years preaching how every person in Thedas deserves freedom and then
decides to sell someone into slavery just because he was mean to
her.

Uh... Merril didn't learn blood magic by reading some book she learn it from making a deal with a pride Demon. How does that make her a "Stronger" mage? I'm quite surprise to hear this from you... an extreme staunch Pro-Templar who suppose to be Anti blood magic. How can you sit there and criticize Anders for letting Jusitce use his body as a host when Merril was striking deals with demons? How is she a much better person then Anders?

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 27 décembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[Red Panda]

It seems so hard to make some sort of compromise between mages and templars.


What if we had a breeding program where it was mandated that mages had to mate with templars by law?

[Lord Raijin]

OperatingWookie wrote...

It seems so hard to make some sort of compromise between mages and templars.


What if we had a breeding program where it was mandated that mages had to mate with templars by law?

As a mage I approve. I want to sleep and mate with Kight-Commander Meredith

I also want to mate with

As well

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 27 décembre 2013 - 01:40 .