891 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

And Anders endangers Bethany's life in the Circle with his bombing of the Chantry.

I for one, saw that like an opportunity to take her away from that damned place once and for all.

[SgtSteel91]

Jaison1986 wrote...
I for one, saw that like an opportunity to take her away from that damned place once and for all.

I'd like to get Bethany away from the Gallows too, but not having to fight off Templars to do so and then become a fugitive.

[Lulupab]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
I for one, saw that like an opportunity to take her away from that damned place once and for all.

I'd like to get Bethany away from the Gallows too, but not having to fight off Templars to do so and then become a fugitive.

There was no peaceful way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...
Fenris wants Anders dead and and approves if you kill anders. So what? Anders can approve Fenris becoming slave agian. It would make ME happy to make someone become a slave if my murder would make that someone happy. Anders approves of Fenris's slavery. Fenris approves of Anders death. as simple as that.

Uhm.. No Fenris does not want Anders dead at any point previous to 'Final Straw'. At that point Anders has just commited a terrible crime, and as such are deserving of death. Even Anders himself wants to die at this point.
However previous to the terror bombing of the Chantry, Fenris never expresses any desire to see Anders dead. But even if he did, it would not be hypocritical of him.
Anders however preaches about the evil of slavery all the time, but when someone he dislikes gets sold into slavery, he can barely stop himself from jumping for joy. And it is this hypocrisy from Anders which is the crux of the matter we speak of.

Rassler wrote...
Anders doesn't want to be liked because Justice thinks friendships are distarctions. He only opens to hawke if hawke supports mages.

What does it matter what some demon wants or thinks? Vengeance should have been destroyed the second they found out it possessed Anders.

Rassler wrote...
Merill thinks anders deserves to live because she actually likes him. This becomes obvious when you put anders life to a vote at the end of act 3. besides the only pro mage companions are anders and merril anyway.

Merrill has a good heart and would prefer if no one died. Can't fault her for that.

Rassler wrote...
Also only anders can save your sibling. you mad?

You know what else can "save" your sibling? Not taking them along with you on an extremely dangerous expedition. Not to mention that becomming a Grey Warden is not much of a salvation.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm.. No Fenris does not want Anders dead at any point previous to 'Final Straw'. At that point Anders has just commited a terrible crime, and as such are deserving of death. Even Anders himself wants to die at this point.
However previous to the terror bombing of the Chantry, Fenris never expresses any desire to see Anders dead. But even if he did, it would not be hypocritical of him.
Anders however preaches about the evil of slavery all the time, but when someone he dislikes gets sold into slavery, he can barely stop himself from jumping for joy. And it is this hypocrisy from Anders which is the crux of the matter we speak of.

What you call a "terrible crime" many see as act of salvataion. Lets agree one something here or we can't argue at all. Anders is neither a terrorist nor evil. In your opinion he is and in my opinion he is not. Nothing is a fact here. Templars have been cruel all the time during the game. For example they made 3 of mages who escaped with grace tranquil in random just to teach them a lesson. They didn't care they were innocent or not and ignore grace who was the mastermind of the plan just becaus she was not picked in random.

Besides Anders doesn't say anything and simply the game says Anders friendship (+). It might even be a glitch for all we know

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What does it matter what some demon wants or thinks? Vengeance should have been destroyed the second they found out it possessed Anders.

He calls himself Justice (in the fade) so I will call him justice too. Anyway Anders care so he doesn't make friends. Also whether he is a demon is quite subjective

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Merrill has a good heart and would prefer if no one died. Can't fault her for that.

LOL. Choose the Templar side and if merril doesn't have enough friendship or rivalry she will turn on you in an instant. No she wants Anders alive becasue she believes in what Anders believe. All mages must be free

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You know what else can "save" your sibling? Not taking them along with you on an extremely dangerous expedition. Not to mention that becomming a Grey Warden is not much of a salvation.

Carver is a much better grey waren than templar. He is much less bitter and it is the only way to friend carver. When he isa templar he gets much more rivalry but not when he is a greywarden.

Modifié par Rassler, 27 décembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders IS a terrorist. He uses fear as a tool to acomplish his goals. He stikes civilian targets, trying to cause maxium fear and panic in his targets. Wether or not you agree with Anders is irrelevant. Anders is and will always be a terrorist. It is not a subject that is up for debate.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders IS a terrorist. He uses fear as a tool to acomplish his goals. He stikes civilian targets, trying to cause maxium fear and panic in his targets. Wether or not you agree with Anders is irrelevant. Anders is and will always be a terrorist. It is not a subject that is up for debate.

Then the templars can be considered the same. As they aways use fear to subjugate mages and mundanes that support mages into submission.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders IS a terrorist. He uses fear as a tool to acomplish his goals. He stikes civilian targets, trying to cause maxium fear and panic in his targets. Wether or not you agree with Anders is irrelevant. Anders is and will always be a terrorist. It is not a subject that is up for debate.

Then the templars can be considered the same. As they aways use fear to subjugate mages and mundanes that support mages into submission.

They certainly use terror tactics, but they are authorized by the Chantry and (probably) by state aswell, which invalidates claims against them of terrorism.
Also Templars do not deliberately target civilian populations for the sole purpose of creating fear, in an effort to advance their goals, further invalidating any such claims.

Anders on the other hand, has no authorization, and he deliberately target civilian populations in unlawful acts of violence and/or war, in an effort to sow fear and further advance his own agenda. Yep... Textbook terrorist.

[Lulupab]

I am pro mage but at least I admit everything is an opinion regarding this matter. Anders is the exact duplicate of a Templar leader who as Jaison said uses fear. Whether Anders is a terrorist is absolutely up for debate because simply its not our world and things are much different. Also Ignorance especially when its intentional is biggest of crimes and I point this at Elthina. In the explosion the game shows only she and some templars guarding her and there is no one else in chantry.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders IS a terrorist. He uses fear as a tool to acomplish his goals. He stikes civilian targets, trying to cause maxium fear and panic in his targets. Wether or not you agree with Anders is irrelevant. Anders is and will always be a terrorist. It is not a subject that is up for debate.

Then the templars can be considered the same. As they aways use fear to subjugate mages and mundanes that support mages into submission.

They certainly use terror tactics, but they are authorized by the Chantry and (probably) by state aswell, which invalidates claims against them of terrorism.
Also Templars do not deliberately target civilian populations for the sole purpose of creating fear, in an effort to advance their goals, further invalidating any such claims.

Anders on the other hand, has no authorization, and he deliberately target civilian populations in unlawful acts of violence and/or war, in an effort to sow fear and further advance his own agenda. Yep... Textbook terrorist.

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:11 .

[Lulupab]

Yes not to mention Templars murder any mother who refuses and draws a sword to Templars who want to take her mage child away forever and force her to give up all of her motherhood rights "in the eyes of maker".

Modifié par Rassler, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:14 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rassler wrote...

Yes not to mention Templars murder any mother who draws a sword to Templars who want to take her child away forever and force her to give up all of her motherhood rights "in the eyes of maker".

To be honest i always laugh when templar tells that killing mage is justice and when mage kill templar then they start crying how monster mage is...

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Terrorism is not a question of "good" and "bad". It is about wether or not the action taken is lawful, and what the action in question induce.

What Anders did was an unlawful act of violence targeted at the civilian population of Kirkwall, in an effort to create fear in order to advance his own political agenda. Hence Anders is a terrorist.
Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

What the Templars do, are the lawful actions of punishing known felons. We can then begin to argue the "correctness" of this law, but that will get us nowhere.
And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

YOUR OPINIONS. Stop acting childish, there is no bottom of the line. You are not even trying to see outside of the box.

You can tell us your opinions but you can't shove them as facts.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

YOUR OPINIONS. Stop acting childish, there is no bottom of the line. You are not even trying to see outside of the box.

You can tell us your opinions but you can't shove them as facts.

It is a matter of LAW not opinion.... Definitions are not ruled by opinions.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Terrorism is not a question of "good" and "bad". It is about wether or not the action taken is lawful, and what the action in question induce.

What Anders did was an unlawful act of violence targeted at the civilian population of Kirkwall, in an effort to create fear in order to advance his own political agenda. Hence Anders is a terrorist.
Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

What the Templars do, are the lawful actions of punishing known felons. We can then begin to argue the "correctness" of this law, but that will get us nowhere.
And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

Yes they would be terrorists if they acted way they act now simple mages were law (so if templars would be outlaw they would be).So as i said only things that don't make templars terrorists is that they control law and their acts of violence toward mages is considered as acceptable when anders not reverse situation and we have that same.

So finally we reach point when we call things by name
templars-extremists who punch in social group (mages) explain that with necessary evil
Anders -extremist who punch in social group (non-mages well more correctly chantry) and explain that with necessary evil

here have

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:46 .

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

YOUR OPINIONS. Stop acting childish, there is no bottom of the line. You are not even trying to see outside of the box.

You can tell us your opinions but you can't shove them as facts.

It is a matter of LAW not opinion.... Definitions are not ruled by opinions.

Thedas is not our world. hence even in our world what may be considered terrorism in USA might not be considered as such in Australia. I bet the word terrorism doesn't even exist in Thedas as human rights don't exist. Don't compare Thedas to our world. its called thinking outside of thebox.

Therefore what you call LAW is not actually a law in Thedas. The French dictators called people participating in revolution murderers and fanatics but they simply freed their country. I shouldn't be making this example as I said we shoudln't compare Thedas and our world. I just said it to show you people see things much differently from their own point of view.

In short one man's terrorist is one man's freedom fighter.

Modifié par Rassler, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:52 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes they would be terrorists if they acted way they act now simple mages were law (so if templars would be outlaw they would be).So as i said only things that don't make templars terrorists is that they control law and their acts of violence toward mages is considered as acceptable when anders not reverse situation and we have that same.

So finally we reach point when we call things by name
templars-extremists who punch in social group (mages) explain that with necessary evil
Anders -extremist who punch in social group (non-mages well more correctly chantry) and explain that with necessary evil

You really have no clue as to how terroism, historical records, and generally how laws function do you?

NO. If the mages were to win what the Templars has been doing would STILL not be terrorism. If they were to continue their actions THEN they could be considered terrorism.

YES. Even if the mages were to win, then Anders actions would STILL be acts of terrorism.

The justification behind the actions is completely and utterly irrelevant. The Templars are currently acting within the law and are therefore NOT terrorist. And even if the amges were to win, then history would record that the Templars were still acting within the law, and therefore they would NOT be labelled terrorists. The reverse is true for Anders. History would remember his unlawful actions, and he would be labelled a terrorist. Though if the amges were victorious they would probably play up the "Freedom FIghter" aspect of Anders. But one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes they would be terrorists if they acted way they act now simple mages were law (so if templars would be outlaw they would be).So as i said only things that don't make templars terrorists is that they control law and their acts of violence toward mages is considered as acceptable when anders not reverse situation and we have that same.

So finally we reach point when we call things by name
templars-extremists who punch in social group (mages) explain that with necessary evil
Anders -extremist who punch in social group (non-mages well more correctly chantry) and explain that with necessary evil

You really have no clue as to how terroism, historical records, and generally how laws function do you?

NO. If the mages were to win what the Templars has been doing would STILL not be terrorism. If they were to continue their actions THEN they could be considered terrorism.

YES. Even if the mages were to win, then Anders actions would STILL be acts of terrorism.

The justification behind the actions is completely and utterly irrelevant. The Templars are currently acting within the law and are therefore NOT terrorist. And even if the amges were to win, then history would record that the Templars were still acting within the law, and therefore they would NOT be labelled terrorists. The reverse is true for Anders. History would remember his unlawful actions, and he would be labelled a terrorist. Though if the amges were victorious they would probably play up the "Freedom FIghter" aspect of Anders. But one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

sigh god read that if don't get it you are too blind like anders and templars
And you ignored totally what i said when read again you chill out from pro-templar blinded rage

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Only difference between anders and templars is that that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Even if the mages were to win, and Anders were to be applauded as a freedom fighter, he would STILL be a terrorist.

And even if the mages were to win, the Templars STILL wouldn't be terrorists. They would be horrible oppressors, using fear and intimidation sure. But still not terrorists.

Bottom line, Templars are NOT terrorst. Anders IS a terrorist.

YOUR OPINIONS. Stop acting childish, there is no bottom of the line. You are not even trying to see outside of the box.

You can tell us your opinions but you can't shove them as facts.

It is a matter of LAW not opinion.... Definitions are not ruled by opinions.

Thedas is not our world. hence even in our world what may be considered terrorism in USA might not be considered as such in Australia. I bet the word terrorism doesn't even exist in Thedas as human rights don't exist. Don't compare Thedas to our world. its called thinking outside of thebox.

Therefore what you call LAW is not actually a law in Thedas. The French dictators called people participating in revolution murderers and fanatics but they simply freed their country. I shouldn't be making this example as I said we shoudln't compare Thedas and our world. I just said it to show you people see things much differently from their own point of view.

In short one man's terrorist is one man's freedom fighter.

Freedom fighters often ARE terrorist.... But people prefer to call them freedom fighters because there are less negative connotations asociated with that word. Take for instance the French resistance during WW2. Much of what they did were decidedly terrorist actions, yet we call them freedom fighters, because it would leave a bad taste in our mouth to say we openly supported terrorists in France. Doesn't change the fact that most of them were terrorists...

And if as you say human rights don't exist in Thedas, then why EXACTLY should we evencare about the mages? You cannot ahve your cake and eat it too. EIther you comapre our world and Thedas at ALL points were it is applicable, or you don't at all.
YOU want to free mages because it is their "right" to be free, no? Yet as you say so yourself, such rights has no meaning in Thedas. So you cannot use that argument.
If you INSIST to make ALL judgements of Thedas based PURELY on in-world sources and evidence, then why EXACTLY would the mundanes want the mages free?

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes they would be terrorists if they acted way they act now simple mages were law (so if templars would be outlaw they would be).So as i said only things that don't make templars terrorists is that they control law and their acts of violence toward mages is considered as acceptable when anders not reverse situation and we have that same.

So finally we reach point when we call things by name
templars-extremists who punch in social group (mages) explain that with necessary evil
Anders -extremist who punch in social group (non-mages well more correctly chantry) and explain that with necessary evil

You really have no clue as to how terroism, historical records, and generally how laws function do you?

NO. If the mages were to win what the Templars has been doing would STILL not be terrorism. If they were to continue their actions THEN they could be considered terrorism.

YES. Even if the mages were to win, then Anders actions would STILL be acts of terrorism.

The justification behind the actions is completely and utterly irrelevant. The Templars are currently acting within the law and are therefore NOT terrorist. And even if the amges were to win, then history would record that the Templars were still acting within the law, and therefore they would NOT be labelled terrorists. The reverse is true for Anders. History would remember his unlawful actions, and he would be labelled a terrorist. Though if the amges were victorious they would probably play up the "Freedom FIghter" aspect of Anders. But one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

sigh god read that if don't get it you are too blind like anders and templars
And you ignored totally what i said when read again you chill out from pro-templar blinded rage

.....................
That's it.
I cannot be bothered with you. Ever again... Your reading comprehension and understanding of what is being said, is literally too low to ever bother with.

If you think what I was doing was being pro-Templar, then there is no hope for you.

And for the love of GOD dont EVER post a tvtrope link as your source, and think it validates the bull**** you spew...

But as I said: I cannot be bothered with you. Good day.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 décembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes they would be terrorists if they acted way they act now simple mages were law (so if templars would be outlaw they would be).So as i said only things that don't make templars terrorists is that they control law and their acts of violence toward mages is considered as acceptable when anders not reverse situation and we have that same.

So finally we reach point when we call things by name
templars-extremists who punch in social group (mages) explain that with necessary evil
Anders -extremist who punch in social group (non-mages well more correctly chantry) and explain that with necessary evil

You really have no clue as to how terroism, historical records, and generally how laws function do you?

NO. If the mages were to win what the Templars has been doing would STILL not be terrorism. If they were to continue their actions THEN they could be considered terrorism.

YES. Even if the mages were to win, then Anders actions would STILL be acts of terrorism.

The justification behind the actions is completely and utterly irrelevant. The Templars are currently acting within the law and are therefore NOT terrorist. And even if the amges were to win, then history would record that the Templars were still acting within the law, and therefore they would NOT be labelled terrorists. The reverse is true for Anders. History would remember his unlawful actions, and he would be labelled a terrorist. Though if the amges were victorious they would probably play up the "Freedom FIghter" aspect of Anders. But one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

sigh god read that if don't get it you are too blind like anders and templars
And you ignored totally what i said when read again you chill out from pro-templar blinded rage

.....................
That's it.
I cannot be bothered with you. Ever again... Your reading comprehension and understanding of what is being said, is literally too low to ever bother with.

If you think what I was doing was being pro-Templar, then there is no hope for you.

But as I said: I cannot be bothered with you. Good day.

Shhh when your mood "how dear you attack my precious templars"

Read my first post again in which you missed point in your rage

here i will help

Only difference between anders and templars is that
that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars
strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars
acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 décembre 2013 - 12:08 .

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Freedom fighters often ARE terrorist.... But people prefer to call them freedom fighters because there are less negative connotations asociated with that word. Take for instance the French resistance during WW2. Much of what they did were decidedly terrorist actions, yet we call them freedom fighters, because it would leave a bad taste in our mouth to say we openly supported terrorists in France. Doesn't change the fact that most of them were terrorists...

And if as you say human rights don't exist in Thedas, then why EXACTLY should we evencare about the mages? You cannot ahve your cake and eat it too. EIther you comapre our world and Thedas at ALL points were it is applicable, or you don't at all.
YOU want to free mages because it is their "right" to be free, no? Yet as you say so yourself, such rights has no meaning in Thedas. So you cannot use that argument.
If you INSIST to make ALL judgements of Thedas based PURELY on in-world sources and evidence, then why EXACTLY would the mundanes want the mages free?

Because birth of mages cannot be stopped and many mages are very good people. Also mages can do things mundanes can't even dream of with a wave of a hand. If control for mages is necessary then it should happen in a much better and civil way than circles. Do you really want to anger someone who can burn you an instant if they wanted to?
I said human rights doesn't exist in Thedas but that doesn't mean we should dehumanize mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

Because birth of mages cannot be stopped and many mages are very good people. Also mages can do things mundanes can't even dream of with a wave of a hand. If control for mages is necessary then it should happen in a much better and civil way than circles. Do you really want to anger someone who can burn you an instant if they wanted to?
I said human rights doesn't exist in Thedas but that doesn't mean we should dehumanize mages.

"Mages are good people" what on sweet mother earth kind of asinine generalization is that? Mages are PEOPLE just like all the rest of us. They are only as good/bad as the next man.

And the problem with the Circles as of now is management, otehrwise it is a perfectly humane enviroment. There are good reasons for segregation of mages and mundanes. And I asked you to provide and in-world reasons for why a mundane would WANT  a mage to live next door, when the mundanes are very aware of the capabilties of the mage. Especially that whole demon part.
The mundanes would NOT want to live next to a mage. Not until education has improved across the board for the commoners of Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Shhh when your mood "how dear you attack my precious templars"

Read my first post again in which you missed point in your rage

here i will help

Only difference between anders and templars is that
that templars are controling law (what don't make them better) templars
strike civilians as well but they are mages if mages won and templars
acted way they act now they would be terrorists and anders law...

I am not being a pro-Templar numbskull... I am explaining why Anders IS a terrorst and the the Templars AREN'T. And in case YOU didn't read, I agreed with you that if the Templars continued their actions udner amges' laws, they would probably be considered terrorist.

But as I said, your reading comprehension and understanding is down the gutter, so any attempt at further debate with you is pointless.