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[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Hatred is generally consdiered a bad attitude or disposition. If such disposition cannot be weeded out through education then there is little hope for the hating person. Hatred is not exactly a disposition of higher intellect. As a matter of fact, many would often associate hatred with average to low intellegence. So if the person, even after education, continue to feel hatred, then tehy were enver going to let go of their hatred anyway.

I have yet to hear about a documented case where actual education of a subject led the student to hate the subject, unless it was a hatred born of frustration from failure of comprehension.
But even if it was the case, that such hatreds could be born from education, then the education itself would far outweigh such setbacks, by eliminating all the hatreds born of ignorance, which are far more common. So my point still stands, education will be the key to the solution of the entire issue.

I will agree with you insofar as how education outweigths the setbacks but you've never heard of a documented case where education lead to hatred? Really?
I mean, there is even the old platitude of how "Hatred is not born, it is taught". Are you saying that everyone and everything is inherently good? I believe you know better than that; and if we accept that most of the world contains negative characteristics to a person or another, then how can, logically, learning of these characteristics not lead to a number of people hating the thing that contains them?
The example I gave you was perfectly reasonable and possible.

There is a difference between being educated and being taught. Education is supposed to be unbiased and neutral. Education is supposed to motivate you to search for the answers yourself, and not merely recieve them from the hand of or mouth of another. If someone teaches you to hate as they do, then they are not educating you. They are merely pasing on their petty hatreds.
If someone preaches hatred, then yes, it is possible that tehy will pass on their hatred. Especially if the adherents are NOT previously educated. Young are also exceptionally susceptible to the influence of a person who radiates gravitas.
And I don't believe in good or evil as terms that can possibly be understood by us mortals. If they exist they are concepts beyond comprehension, and we only got a mere notion of the nature of them.
What I do believe is that a person is NOT inherentøy good or evil. If you put two kids together they more often than not start playing together, whcih I would mean indicate an inherent goodhearted nature between humans. But as I mention, I don't think good and evil are concepts that can truly be comprehended.

[Lulupab]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So prostitues don't exist in dragon age right? I mean, they never used the term, so obviously there is not example of woman selling sexual services for solicitors for some sovereigns.

I seem to recall thisline:

Its not about words its about concepts. Concept of terrorism doesn't exist like so many other things that doesn't exist in thedas.

War is a concept in Thedas, and thus all ways of fighting wars are.

If so then you know that one man's terrorist is one man's hero. Joan of Arc was called a heretic by the British and a saint by the French. No side of story is the truth. It was war and everyone did what they could to win. Martyr, terrorist, hero. These terms are used quite differently on each side. When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

[Hazegurl]

Can't we all just get along?

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 décembre 2013 - 08:49 .

[Lord Raijin]

Jaison1986 wrote...

It would save a lot of trouble if you guys just agree to disagree. This argument is going nowhere.

I agree.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rassler wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So prostitues don't exist in dragon age right? I mean, they never used the term, so obviously there is not example of woman selling sexual services for solicitors for some sovereigns.

I seem to recall thisline:

Its not about words its about concepts. Concept of terrorism doesn't exist like so many other things that doesn't exist in thedas.

War is a concept in Thedas, and thus all ways of fighting wars are.

If so then you know that one man's terrorist is one man's hero. Joan of Arc was called a heretic by the British and a saint by the French. No side of story is the truth. It was war and everyone did what they could to win. Martyr, terrorist, hero. These terms are used quite differently on each side. When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

I said that when I introduced myself into this debate. I said some would see Anders as a terrorist, and others as a freedom fighter and that one can be both at the same time, like Anders is. 

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 27 décembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Toasted Llama]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

It would save a lot of trouble if you guys just agree to disagree. This argument is going nowhere.

You're right. This isn't the thread for this discussion. If people want to continue it, they can start a thread about it.

Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: finding a way to have compromise between Templars and Mages.

That would be alot easier and nicer if whatever idea someone came up with doesn't get thrown down with "impossible, templars and mages will never compromise".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Toasted Llama wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

It would save a lot of trouble if you guys just agree to disagree. This argument is going nowhere.

You're right. This isn't the thread for this discussion. If people want to continue it, they can start a thread about it.

Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: finding a way to have compromise between Templars and Mages.

That would be alot easier and nicer if whatever idea someone came up with doesn't get thrown down with "impossible, templars and mages will never compromise".

I agree. I don't know why people don't at least humor the idea. And if they hate the concept on compromise so much, why read this thread instead of the threads purely dedicated to one side?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...
When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

You really don't grasp the concept of terrorism do you? It has NOTHING to do with opinions. Anders IS a terrorist, he lives up to every single aspects of the definition. HOWEVER him being a terrorist does not preclude him being considered a hero by some.

Being a freedom fighter and being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...
When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

You really don't grasp the concept of terrorism do you? It has NOTHING to do with opinions. Anders IS a terrorist, he lives up to every single aspects of the definition. HOWEVER him being a terrorist does not preclude him being considered a hero by some.

Being a freedom fighter and being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive.

Anders also lives up to every aspect of being a martyr.

[Jaison1986]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Toasted Llama wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

It would save a lot of trouble if you guys just agree to disagree. This argument is going nowhere.

You're right. This isn't the thread for this discussion. If people want to continue it, they can start a thread about it.

Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: finding a way to have compromise between Templars and Mages.

That would be alot easier and nicer if whatever idea someone came up with doesn't get thrown down with "impossible, templars and mages will never compromise".

I agree. I don't know why people don't at least humor the idea. And if they hate the concept on compromise so much, why read this thread instead of the threads purely dedicated to one side?

One thing is that there is a lot of stigma on the templars to go back to the ways things were once. When you think about it, why would the mages agree to go back to the old circle system if they were to suffer the same old abuses all over again? Ser Thrask says it himself: "Being an templar is like an badge of shame".

I for one would propose an entirely new order to watch over the mages without ties to the Chantry, they would be taught and trained to be more open minded toward the mages. The remaining forces of the Inquisition would make an good start, as they  will have no role once their duty is completed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...
When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

You really don't grasp the concept of terrorism do you? It has NOTHING to do with opinions. Anders IS a terrorist, he lives up to every single aspects of the definition. HOWEVER him being a terrorist does not preclude him being considered a hero by some.

Being a freedom fighter and being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive.

Anders also lives up to every aspect of being a martyr.

Indeed (unless of course you didn't kill him). So? Most terrorists also live up to the title of martyr. Again a case of the two not being mutually exclusive.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...
When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

Blowing up a building killing people (and it doesn't matter who we saw in the cutscene) to spark a war is an act of terrorism

It doesn't mean someone has a Templar point of view

[Toasted Llama]

Jaison1986 wrote...

One thing is that there is a lot of stigma on the templars to go back to the ways things were once. When you think about it, why would the mages agree to go back to the old circle system if they were to suffer the same old abuses all over again? Ser Thrask says it himself: "Being an templar is like an badge of shame".

I for one would propose an entirely new order to watch over the mages without ties to the Chantry, they would be taught and trained to be more open minded toward the mages. The remaining forces of the Inquisition would make an good start, as they  will have no role once their duty is completed.

At least it's a lot nicer that TheKomandorShepard's idea of killing all mages...

[Lord Raijin]

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There is a difference between being educated and being taught. Education is supposed to be unbiased and neutral. Education is supposed to motivate you to search for the answers yourself, and not merely recieve them from the hand of or mouth of another. If someone teaches you to hate as they do, then they are not educating you. They are merely pasing on their petty hatreds.
If someone preaches hatred, then yes, it is possible that tehy will pass on their hatred. Especially if the adherents are NOT previously educated. Young are also exceptionally susceptible to the influence of a person who radiates gravitas.
And I don't believe in good or evil as terms that can possibly be understood by us mortals. If they exist they are concepts beyond comprehension, and we only got a mere notion of the nature of them.
What I do believe is that a person is NOT inherentøy good or evil. If you put two kids together they more often than not start playing together, whcih I would mean indicate an inherent goodhearted nature between humans. But as I mention, I don't think good and evil are concepts that can truly be comprehended.

And you don't think that an unbiased and neutral source of information can't lead to hatred? Again, do you think that a freedom loving person couldn't hate the qunari upon learning how they view the world and how they wish to force it upon everyone else?

Plus, good luck extablishing a completely impartial school system open to the masses of Thedas. If, for instance, the mages win the war and decide education of normal people is the path to freedom, the classes will mostly focus on how benevolent mages are and how they were unjustly opressed and how safe magic is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Jaison1986 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Toasted Llama wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

It would save a lot of trouble if you guys just agree to disagree. This argument is going nowhere.

You're right. This isn't the thread for this discussion. If people want to continue it, they can start a thread about it.

Let's get back to the purpose of this thread: finding a way to have compromise between Templars and Mages.

That would be alot easier and nicer if whatever idea someone came up with doesn't get thrown down with "impossible, templars and mages will never compromise".

I agree. I don't know why people don't at least humor the idea. And if they hate the concept on compromise so much, why read this thread instead of the threads purely dedicated to one side?

One thing is that there is a lot of stigma on the templars to go back to the ways things were once. When you think about it, why would the mages agree to go back to the old circle system if they were to suffer the same old abuses all over again? Ser Thrask says it himself: "Being an templar is like an badge of shame".

I for one would propose an entirely new order to watch over the mages without ties to the Chantry, they would be taught and trained to be more open minded toward the mages. The remaining forces of the Inquisition would make an good start, as they  will have no role once their duty is completed.

That is a very valid point. The system will need to be rebuilt to be more fair to all parties involved. Perhaps do not use the term Templars for the organization that oversees the mages. The Circles should be restablished but serve more of what they were originally designed for: to teach mages how to use their powers and the dangers their gift places on them. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

Personally, I agree with whoever talked about the Templars being more of a police force in the sense that they go after dangerous mages who committed crimes. The ones who serve as security between mages at the Circles and those who would attack them should be a different order or just part of the nation's military, like how guards try to keep the Alienages safe from elf haters, at least for the most part.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

And you don't think that an unbiased and neutral source of information can't lead to hatred? Again, do you think that a freedom loving person couldn't hate the qunari upon learning how they view the world and how they wish to force it upon everyone else?

Hatred is an irrational response to a source of unhappiness (in broad terms). So no. A person of reasonable intellegence will not succumb to hatred of the Qunari, even if he is "freedom loving". Sure, if he is a "freedom fanatic" (Ie. not at all into freedom, but more into HIS idea of freedom), then sure he may hate the Qunari. But I would also question his intellegence to begin with.
An educated person could abhor and certainly disagree with the Qunari ideals. But hatred? No. Hatred is not the intellegent man's response.

MisterJB wrote...

Plus, good luck extablishing a completely impartial school system open to the masses of Thedas. If, for instance, the mages win the war and decide education of normal people is the path to freedom, the classes will mostly focus on how benevolent mages are and how they were unjustly opressed and how safe magic is.

There is no such thing as impartiality. It is an ideal to strive towards, but you will always be biased by your experiences. That is why good education motivates you to search for answers on your own. So that you can make an educated, and as clsoe to unbiased by others, that you can possibly get.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:18 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...
When you call Anders a terrorist it doesn't mean he is its your opinion that he is and it usually means you have the templars point of view.

You really don't grasp the concept of terrorism do you? It has NOTHING to do with opinions. Anders IS a terrorist, he lives up to every single aspects of the definition. HOWEVER him being a terrorist does not preclude him being considered a hero by some.

Being a freedom fighter and being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive.

Anders also lives up to every aspect of being a martyr.

Yup, just like the guys who scream "allahu akbar" before they blow themselves up. All martyring terrorist freedom fighters and all their criticisms against them just as easily appliable to anders.

[Lord Raijin]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

Personally, I agree with whoever talked about the Templars being more of a police force in the sense that they go after dangerous mages who committed crimes. The ones who serve as security between mages at the Circles and those who would attack them should be a different order or just part of the nation's military, like how guards try to keep the Alienages safe from elf haters, at least for the most part.

I want Circle mages and Templar's to work together. When theirs an assignment given to the templars to track down and to kill dangerous mages who are commiting serious crimes against the innocent people in the lands, I want them to take a couple of Circle mages for the journey to come. These circle mages can be useful for healing and very useful  for combat reasons. Templar's are not the only one that could dispell mana... so could mages.

[MisterJB]

MisterJB wrote...
Plus, good luck extablishing a completely impartial school system open to the masses of Thedas. If, for instance, the mages win the war and decide education of normal people is the path to freedom, the classes will mostly focus on how benevolent mages are and how they were unjustly opressed and how safe magic is.

Jaison1986 wrote... 
they would be taught and trained to be more open minded toward the mages.

See?

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Plus, good luck extablishing a completely impartial school system open to the masses of Thedas. If, for instance, the mages win the war and decide education of normal people is the path to freedom, the classes will mostly focus on how benevolent mages are and how they were unjustly opressed and how safe magic is.

Jaison1986 wrote... 
they would be taught and trained to be more open minded toward the mages.

See?

Well, I did talk about the difference between being educated and being taught, right?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lord Raijin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

Personally, I agree with whoever talked about the Templars being more of a police force in the sense that they go after dangerous mages who committed crimes. The ones who serve as security between mages at the Circles and those who would attack them should be a different order or just part of the nation's military, like how guards try to keep the Alienages safe from elf haters, at least for the most part.

I want Circle mages and Templar's to work together. When theirs an assignment given to the templars to track down and to kill dangerous mages who are commiting serious crimes against the innocent people in the lands, I want them to take a couple of Circle mages for the journey to come. These circle mages can be useful for healing and very useful  for combat reasons. Templar's are not the only one that could dispell mana... so could mages.

Plus it will also give good public relations to mages. If it is just Templars, then people start to think all mages are bad because they only hear of the bad ones. But if the Mages helped the Templars, the opinions of the people become more neutral since they see both good mages and bad mages.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Hatred is an irrational response to a source of unhappiness (in broad terms). So no. A person of reasonable intellegence will not succumb to hatred of the Qunari, even if he is "freedom loving". Sure, if he is a "freedom fanatic" (Ie. not at all into freedom, but more into HIS idea of freedom), then sure he may hate the Qunari. But I would also question his intellegence to begin with.
An educated person could abhor and certainly disagree with the Qunari ideals. But hatred? No. Hatred is not the intellegent man's response.

And what exactly is irrational about hating those that would harm you given the chance?

Edit: Actually, I am getting sidetracked. Even if you believe that it is an irrational response, it is a fact, that learning how certain things are, can lead to people hating them. Therefore, ignorance is not always the source of hatred.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[The Elder King]

In all fairness, Jaison was talking about the new order of templars, not people in general.