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[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Hatred is an irrational response to a source of unhappiness (in broad terms). So no. A person of reasonable intellegence will not succumb to hatred of the Qunari, even if he is "freedom loving". Sure, if he is a "freedom fanatic" (Ie. not at all into freedom, but more into HIS idea of freedom), then sure he may hate the Qunari. But I would also question his intellegence to begin with.
An educated person could abhor and certainly disagree with the Qunari ideals. But hatred? No. Hatred is not the intellegent man's response.
[/quote]
And what exactly is irrational about hating those that would harm you given the chance?

Edit: Actually, I am getting sidetracked. Even if you believe that it is an irrational response, it is a fact, that learning how certain things are, can lead to people hating them. Therefore, ignorance is not always the source of hatred.[/quote]
And what exactly is irrational about hating those that would harm you given the chance?[/quote]
Because hatred is a word that gets thrown around a lot, and are being misused. Hatred is the irrational sensation of extreme anger at the percieved source of unhappiness. If a person WANTS to hurt you, then tehre is no reason to hate them, since they have caused you no harm yet. Have a person harmed you, there is no reason to hate the person, since it will only make you less capable of either A: moving on or B: getting revenge.

And a LOT of ideologies are categorically incapable of coexistence on paper. Yet if our world is any evidence, they all still manage to exist together. So an uninformed or unintellegent person may see the Qunari as some sort of great threat to everything in existence. The more learned persons would be able t see the Qunari for what they are. Just another society. Qunari might be ideologically opposed to a lot of societies, but that does not exclude co-existance. Capitalism and Communism are also (on paper) incapable of co-existance. Yet we have managed pretty well so far.
I have no reason to believe that the Qunari are incapable of co-existance, since I have seen no precedence for a society that truly was such.

And I never said that ignorance is always the source of hatred. I said that it is most often the source.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:36 .

[Lord Raijin]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

Personally, I agree with whoever talked about the Templars being more of a police force in the sense that they go after dangerous mages who committed crimes. The ones who serve as security between mages at the Circles and those who would attack them should be a different order or just part of the nation's military, like how guards try to keep the Alienages safe from elf haters, at least for the most part.

I want Circle mages and Templar's to work together. When theirs an assignment given to the templars to track down and to kill dangerous mages who are commiting serious crimes against the innocent people in the lands, I want them to take a couple of Circle mages for the journey to come. These circle mages can be useful for healing and very useful  for combat reasons. Templar's are not the only one that could dispell mana... so could mages.

Plus it will also give good public relations to mages. If it is just Templars, then people start to think all mages are bad because they only hear of the bad ones. But if the Mages helped the Templars, the opinions of the people become more neutral since they see both good mages and bad mages.

Not just for the mages but also the templars too. The templars has been losing support from the citizens(Mundanes) because of their harsh and extreme views. Everytime a unit of templars takes away a child from their loving homes it produces a mage sympathizer or two, depending on the location.

Mage-Templar War isn't just about mages and templars fighting against each other... mages also have sympathizers who are willing to die for their cause. Even Templar's are fighting against each other (Evangeline), and it seems as if Seekers like Cassandra are willing to battle her own men to bring peace, and she even knowledges that it was Meredith who provoked the war, not the mages.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:55 .

[SgtSteel91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because hatred is a word that gets thrown around a lot, and are being misused. Hatred is the irrational sensation of extreme anger at the percieved source of unhappiness. If a person WANTS to hurt you, then tehre is no reason to hate them, since they have caused you no harm yet. Have a person harmed you, there is no reason to hate the person, since it will only make you less capable of either A: moving on or B: getting revenge.

And a LOT of ideologies are categorically incapable of coexistence on paper. Yet if our world is any evidence, they all still manage to exist together. So an uninformed or unintellegent person may see the Qunari as some sort of great threat to everything in existence. The more learned persons would be able t see the Qunari for what they are. Just another society. Qunari might be ideologically opposed to a lot of societies, but that does not exclude co-existance. Capitalism and Communism are also (on paper) incapable of co-existance. Yet we have managed pretty well so far.
I have no reason to believe that the Qunari are incapable of co-existance, since I have seen no precedence for a society that truly was such.

And I never said that ignorance is always the source of hatred. I said that it is most often the source.

Don't the Qunari want to convert the rest of Thedas to the Qun? They seem pretty intolerant of the other Bas, or 'things' in their language, and their beliefs.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 27 décembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because hatred is a word that gets thrown around a lot, and are being misused. Hatred is the irrational sensation of extreme anger at the percieved source of unhappiness. If a person WANTS to hurt you, then tehre is no reason to hate them, since they have caused you no harm yet. Have a person harmed you, there is no reason to hate the person, since it will only make you less capable of either A: moving on or B: getting revenge.

And a LOT of ideologies are categorically incapable of coexistence on paper. Yet if our world is any evidence, they all still manage to exist together. So an uninformed or unintellegent person may see the Qunari as some sort of great threat to everything in existence. The more learned persons would be able t see the Qunari for what they are. Just another society. Qunari might be ideologically opposed to a lot of societies, but that does not exclude co-existance. Capitalism and Communism are also (on paper) incapable of co-existance. Yet we have managed pretty well so far.
I have no reason to believe that the Qunari are incapable of co-existance, since I have seen no precedence for a society that truly was such.

And I never said that ignorance is always the source of hatred. I said that it is most often the source.

People can adress the subject of their hate in a very logical and calculating manner. Plus, one can hate another simply for the other's willingness to harm him or just for existing and we can't determine that person is wrong for carrying that hatred. There's nothing irrational about that.

Ultimately, my original point was that education does not necessarely mean people will cease to fear and hate mages. A peasant loses the fear of magic causing cows to die and gains the fear of mages being possessed and destroying the whole village.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lord Raijin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mages want their freedom and the Templar's want them all incarcerated. They hunts mages (Flemeth,Morrigan,etc) down if they refuse to submit to their authority. Theirs no compromising with them for as long as the Templar's holds on to their views and standards.

The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry that hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker.
http://dragonage.wik.../Templar_Order

In order for a compromise to work the Templar Order needs to have a major change on the way they do things, and how they operate.

Could the Templar Order allow apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan live in peace? Or will their impulsiveness take over?

Personally, I agree with whoever talked about the Templars being more of a police force in the sense that they go after dangerous mages who committed crimes. The ones who serve as security between mages at the Circles and those who would attack them should be a different order or just part of the nation's military, like how guards try to keep the Alienages safe from elf haters, at least for the most part.

I want Circle mages and Templar's to work together. When theirs an assignment given to the templars to track down and to kill dangerous mages who are commiting serious crimes against the innocent people in the lands, I want them to take a couple of Circle mages for the journey to come. These circle mages can be useful for healing and very useful  for combat reasons. Templar's are not the only one that could dispell mana... so could mages.

Plus it will also give good public relations to mages. If it is just Templars, then people start to think all mages are bad because they only hear of the bad ones. But if the Mages helped the Templars, the opinions of the people become more neutral since they see both good mages and bad mages.

Not just for the mages but also the templars too. The templars has been losing support from the citizens(Mundanes) because of their harsh and extreme views. Everytime a unit of templars takes away a child from their loving homes it produces a mage sympathizer or two, depending on the location.

Mage-Templar War isn't just about mages and templars fighting against each other... mages also have sympathizers who are willing to die for their cause. Even Templar's are fighting against each other (Evangeline), and it seems as if Seekers like Cassandra are willing to battle her own men to bring peace, and she even knowledges that it was Meredith who provoked the war, not the mages.

There's that too. Yeah, once the two actual groups stop fighting, the people who suport the two groups will as well. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I'll just say this. Yes, I'm pro-Mage and have been since I first played Origins. My "cannon" choices that I will be taking into the DA Keep are all pro-Mage. However, I can see where the templars are coming from. To be honest, by the time DA2 ended, I was ready to walk away from both sides. After some reading earlier, learning more of the lore, I have concluded that there is something very wrong with Kirkwall. Sure, the "Enigma of Kirkwall" does reveal it, but even then it fails to convey the level of sickness, death and insanity that lies under Kirkwall.

In the end, things did need to change. I will never agree with Anders on his actions, but I do agree that the Circle/Templar business needs some serious reform. However, I feel that so much of the degree of the hostilities happened because of what Kirkwall is. That giant rune that shapes the city...I wonder how much it has shaped the minds of those that live there?

Anyhow, since I changed my signature, I'll just leave it at this. Pro-Mage, Anti-Extremist. Anders went too far.

Modifié par Starsyn, 27 décembre 2013 - 10:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

SgtSteel91 wrote...
Don't the Qunari want to convert the rest of Thedas to the Qun? They seem pretty intolerant of the other Bas, or 'things' in their language, and their beliefs.

So does the Christians. So does the Muslims. So does the Hindu. So does the Buddhists.

That a religion wants to spread to all corners of the world, is not unique to the Qunari. And if we can manage to live in a world with so many conflicting religions, then Thedas can aswell.

MisterJB wrote...

People can adress the subject of their hate in a very logical and calculating manner. Plus, one can hate another simply for the other's willingness to harm him or just for existing and we can't determine that person is wrong for carrying that hatred. There's nothing irrational about that.

Ultimately, my original point was that education does not necessarely mean people will cease to fear and hate mages. A peasant loses the fear of magic causing cows to die and gains the fear of mages being possessed and destroying the whole village.

No matter how a person adresses his hatred, it STILL isn't a rational response to outside stimuli. Hatred clouds judgement.

And my point is that education won't eliminate prejudice hatred and fear of mages. But it will help a lot on the case. Especially since commoners ALREADY fear mages becasue they might turn into Abominations.
But if they will no longer blame mages for failed crops, sick and/or dying animals, and a truckload of other incidents, it will go a long way.

Not even the best educated countries are rid of fools and petty racists. I have no reason to believe that anything less than autopia would be rid prejudice and petty hatred in Thedas. However through education at least the worst will be abated, and then the fools and haters will be a minority, and will lose influecne on the world. As they should.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No matter how a person adresses his hatred, it STILL isn't a rational response to outside stimuli. Hatred clouds judgement.

It doesn't. Hatred is a natural response to outside stimuli.

And my point is that education won't eliminate prejudice hatred and fear of mages. But it will help a lot on the case. Especially since commoners ALREADY fear mages becasue they might turn into Abominations.
But if they will no longer blame mages for failed crops, sick and/or dying animals, and a truckload of other incidents, it will go a long way.

Not even the best educated countries are rid of fools and petty racists. I have no reason to believe that anything less than autopia would be rid prejudice and petty hatred in Thedas. However through education at least the worst will be abated, and then the fools and haters will be a minority, and will lose influecne on the world. As they should.

I disagree. I believe that understanding just how dangerous magic truly is will lead to the great majority of non-mages to hate and fear them as much as they do now, if for better reasons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No matter how a person adresses his hatred, it STILL isn't a rational response to outside stimuli. Hatred clouds judgement.

It doesn't. Hatred is a natural response to outside stimuli.

Panic is a natural response, it is still irrational. A response can be completely natural and still be irrational. And hatred very much clouds judgement.
If you hate a person and were to be judge, jury and executioner over him. Then you would in 9 out of 10 times judge him guilty, despite the truth, and have him killed.

MisterJB wrote...

And my point is that education won't eliminate prejudice hatred and fear of mages. But it will help a lot on the case. Especially since commoners ALREADY fear mages becasue they might turn into Abominations.
But if they will no longer blame mages for failed crops, sick and/or dying animals, and a truckload of other incidents, it will go a long way.

Not even the best educated countries are rid of fools and petty racists. I have no reason to believe that anything less than autopia would be rid prejudice and petty hatred in Thedas. However through education at least the worst will be abated, and then the fools and haters will be a minority, and will lose influecne on the world. As they should.

I disagree. I believe that understanding just how dangerous magic truly is will lead to the great majority of non-mages to hate and fear them as much as they do now, if for better reasons.

History has proven otherwise.

[TK514]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...
Don't the Qunari want to convert the rest of Thedas to the Qun? They seem pretty intolerant of the other Bas, or 'things' in their language, and their beliefs.

So does the Christians. So does the Muslims. So does the Hindu. So does the Buddhists.

That a religion wants to spread to all corners of the world, is not unique to the Qunari. And if we can manage to live in a world with so many conflicting religions, then Thedas can aswell.

I suggest you back away from the real world examples, because you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Panic is a natural response, it is still irrational. A response can be completely natural and still be irrational. And hatred very much clouds judgement.
If you hate a person and were to be judge, jury and executioner over him. Then you would in 9 out of 10 times judge him guilty, despite the truth, and have him killed.

It is rational for me to wish to see myself free of someone I hate, therefore, I would have made a rational decision.

History has proven otherwise.

Our history has never had to deal with magic and mages.
And if you want to argue that "haters" form a minority of the population and are away from the seats of power, I'd very much disagree.

[AlexanderCousland]

MisterJB wrote...

Our history has never had to deal with magic and mages.
And if you want to argue that "haters" form a minority of the population and are away from the seats of power, I'd very much disagree.

What are you talking about? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

TK514 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...
Don't the Qunari want to convert the rest of Thedas to the Qun? They seem pretty intolerant of the other Bas, or 'things' in their language, and their beliefs.

So does the Christians. So does the Muslims. So does the Hindu. So does the Buddhists.

That a religion wants to spread to all corners of the world, is not unique to the Qunari. And if we can manage to live in a world with so many conflicting religions, then Thedas can aswell.

I suggest you back away from the real world examples, because you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Actually, since I studied that stuff, I have a perfectly good idea about waht I am speaking.

Many Christians consdier it their greaest obligation to follow some of the last words of jesus, which was specifically about proselytism. The Bible itself encourages (if not straight up obligates) Christians to go out and convert every nation.

In Islam the Muslims are rewarded for bringing other people into the Faith. Much like in Christianity, and are actively encouraged to spread their Faith to all corners of the world. Islam is a bit unique though, in taht it specifies that force must NEVER be used in the conversion of people. But it further specifies that the correct path is obvious to all, and if not then damnation awaits him who does not see.

Judaism were also traditionally a highly active proselytistic religion. However in recent years, the Jews have limited themselves to simply attempt to make non-practising jews start practising. However, in theory at least, the Judaean faith didn't actively encourage or discourage conversions (which makes the faith unique from the other big players)

Buddhists are one of the most active religions with their proselytism. They have actively been converting people for hundreds of years, ever since the mid 12th century.

Hinduism is also a rather unique case. Hindus don't have any binding rituals for conversion (such as the baptism for Christians), but they are still actively proselystic. However much of the Hindu Faith efforts have recently been aimed at preventing apostasy (the abandonment of faith, in this case Hindu) and re-converting people back to Hinduism.

Bottom line: In all of the major religions, except for Judaism, actively seeking to convert others are rewarded in some way or another, and are actively encouraging the conversion of others. Which means that almsot ALL the major faiths on earth should be incapable of co-existance, and yet here we are, co-existing.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Panic is a natural response, it is still irrational. A response can be completely natural and still be irrational. And hatred very much clouds judgement.
If you hate a person and were to be judge, jury and executioner over him. Then you would in 9 out of 10 times judge him guilty, despite the truth, and have him killed.

It is rational for me to wish to see myself free of someone I hate, therefore, I would have made a rational decision.

Hatred ITSELF is the irrational feeling here. yes to be rid of something that causes you grief could be considered rational. But the fact that this particular person is causing you grief to begin with, is the irrational action.

MisterJB wrote...

History has proven otherwise.

Our history has never had to deal with magic and mages.
And if you want to argue that "haters" form a minority of the population and are away from the seats of power, I'd very much disagree.

Our history has had to deal with A LOT of superstition, and general misinformation.

People mistrusted nuclear power greatly until recently. It is only in the last few decades that people have begun to embrace it. This can largely be attributed to peoples' increased understanding of how the plants safety works.

The people of Thedas is perfectly aware of the dangers of magic. Any education will not further inform them of these. Education will hwoever teach them how these dangers function. They will for isntance learn that the mage is not (necesarily) to blame for the failed harvest. They will learn that cutting off the mage's hands does not rpevent him from casting magic, and that it will almost certainly cause more harm than good to do so.
They will also learn about all the benign aspects of magic. So that commoners could even begin to appreciate having a mage nearby.
All in all, education will solve more problems than it will create.

[TK514]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TK514 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So does the Christians. So does the Muslims. So does the Hindu. So does the Buddhists.

That a religion wants to spread to all corners of the world, is not unique to the Qunari. And if we can manage to live in a world with so many conflicting religions, then Thedas can aswell.

I suggest you back away from the real world examples, because you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Actually, since I studied that stuff, I have a perfectly good idea about waht I am speaking.

Many Christians consdier it their greaest obligation to follow some of the last words of jesus, which was specifically about proselytism. The Bible itself encourages (if not straight up obligates) Christians to go out and convert every nation.

In Islam the Muslims are rewarded for bringing other people into the Faith. Much like in Christianity, and are actively encouraged to spread their Faith to all corners of the world. Islam is a bit unique though, in taht it specifies that force must NEVER be used in the conversion of people. But it further specifies that the correct path is obvious to all, and if not then damnation awaits him who does not see.

Judaism were also traditionally a highly active proselytistic religion. However in recent years, the Jews have limited themselves to simply attempt to make non-practising jews start practising. However, in theory at least, the Judaean faith didn't actively encourage or discourage conversions (which makes the faith unique from the other big players)

Buddhists are one of the most active religions with their proselytism. They have actively been converting people for hundreds of years, ever since the mid 12th century.

Hinduism is also a rather unique case. Hindus don't have any binding rituals for conversion (such as the baptism for Christians), but they are still actively proselystic. However much of the Hindu Faith efforts have recently been aimed at preventing apostasy (the abandonment of faith, in this case Hindu) and re-converting people back to Hinduism.

Bottom line: In all of the major religions, except for Judaism, actively seeking to convert others are rewarded in some way or another, and are actively encouraging the conversion of others. Which means that almsot ALL the major faiths on earth should be incapable of co-existance, and yet here we are, co-existing.

Ask the Christians and Muslims in the former Republic of Yugoslavia about religious tolerance.
Ask the Irish Catholics about religious tolerance.
Ask Muslims in the US after 9/11 about religious tolerance.
Ask any Mormon on any given day about how they're generally viewed in society.

Then come back and tell me about all this wonderful religious co-existence we have.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TK514 wrote...

Ask the Christians and Muslims in the former Republic of Yugoslavia about religious tolerance.
Ask the Irish Catholics about religious tolerance.
Ask Muslims in the US after 9/11 about religious tolerance.
Ask any Mormon on any given day about how they're generally viewed in society.

Then come back and tell me about all this wonderful religious co-existence we have.

Did I ever mention tolerance in my post? Hmmmm... No I don't believe I did. So why are you bringing it up? Are you claiming that relgions that are ideologically opposed do NOT co-exist in our world? Are you saying that muslims are not tolerated at all? What exactly are you trying to say? Because to me, it seems like a whole lot of nothing.

I am not talking about a conflict free world. I am talking about a world where, even though on paper two religions/ideologies shouldn't be able to exist together, still manages to co-exist.

I have no more reason to fear/hate/shun the Qunari, than any other religion that also wishes to convert me.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 décembre 2013 - 11:49 .