114 réponses à ce sujet

[Westan Willows]

Sgt 18        Skill Points   feats     Dwarf
Dex 10       con 4            PA
Con 16       dis  4            WF
Wis 08       heal 4
Int   14       lor    4
Cha 06

Is this a good built? I am not mulitaclassing. He is a board/sward melee fighter.
If you have a better built please post it and say why it is betty
Thank you

[Elhanan]

Personally, I do not care to have starting penalties in DEX and WIS, esp when a Ftr already has weakened REF & WILL. Having such a dominant starting STR is not that important to me, so I generally trade for better ST bonuses.

As far as Skills, I would trade Concentration for something else more utilized, even if it is Cross-Class; depends on Taunt usage perhaps.

Any reason going for Pure Ftr? I love Rogue versatility myself.

[Westan Willows]

Why did they make concentration a class skill? I am in Sou and Taunt isn't use.
As for why a pure Ftr?
I want to learn to make a good Ftr Then I will mulitaclass.

[Westan Willows]

I keep forgetting to ask. Were would you put the abilities point you get at lv 4,8,etc?
also his WF is longsword.

[Elhanan]

Westan Willows wrote...

I keep forgetting to ask. Were would you put the abilities point you get at lv 4,8,etc?
also his WF is longsword.

Generally, I choose WF in both melee and ranged weapons early, and then WS in both soon as I am able. Blind Fight is taken in the early stages, too. Then I try and obtain Imp Crit for both as soon as the prereqs are met.

My reasons for this is to maximize my killing distance; Then I am able to do some harm at distance, and even more when they close.

[Empyre65]

If you start with 16 STR, you could have 12 DEX and 12 WIS, improving your saves and AC. After that, increase STR every chance you have, including 12 Great Strength feats in epic levels, and you would end up with 32 STR.

For feats, Cleave is nice to have early on to give you an extra attack. If you also take Great Cleave and Improved Critical in late pre-epic, you are all set for Devastating Critical in epic levels. Also, if you are going to have Dev Crit, you might want to choose a scimitar instead of a longsword to have more critical hits.

A pure Fighter has so many feats, you might be able to afford to spend some of them on saves, like Luck of Heroes (level 1 only), Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will.

[Westan Willows]

OK here goes

Dwarf

STR 16     Discipline 4      WF  Scimitar
DEX 12     Heal         4      Luck of Heros
CON 16    LORE       4
INT   14    Search      2
WIS 12
CHA 06

  Seth will go for Iron Will, PA.Cleave, and Crits.

Thank you for your help. :happy:

[Elhanan]

I would exchange that scimitar for something with a bit more heft for a STR build; perhaps something with a higher Critical modifier instead of a wider range (eg; warhammer, greataxe). No math expert, but it seems in play that this will yield better results with STR.

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I do not care to have starting penalties in DEX and WIS, esp when a Ftr already has weakened REF & WILL.

Reverse this thinking.

Your will is already so terrible you're going to fail everything anyway, so keep wisdom low (and get mind immunity items/potions/spells).  No point in investing a bunch of wisdom to change a 95% chance to fail to an 85% chance to fail.

Starting with 12+ Dex can be useful, though, since it allows several defense feats (13+ dex) and gives extra AC (you lose 1 AC per 2 dex score below 12).

Elhanan wrote...

Having such a dominant starting STR is not that important to me, so I generally trade for better ST bonuses.

In most cases, the AB alone is worth 5-10% more damage plus the strength bonus is another 5-10% damage. That's fairly significant compared to other stuff.

Elhanan wrote...

As far as Skills, I would trade Concentration for something else more utilized, even if it is Cross-Class; depends on Taunt usage perhaps.

Agreed.  Concentration is only useful if enemies are Taunting -- and high Charisma taunters will suceed anyway.

Westan Willows wrote...

I keep forgetting to ask. Were would you put the abilities point you get at lv 4,8,etc?

Strength.  Always strength.

Elhanan wrote...

Generally,
I choose WF in both melee and ranged weapons early, and then WS in both soon as I am able. Blind Fight is taken in the early stages, too. Then I try and obtain Imp Crit for both as soon as the prereqs are met.

My reasons for this is to maximize my killing distance; Then I am able to do some harm at distance, and even more when they close.

This is, unfortunately, poor advice.  You're only possibly going to be attacking with a ranged weapons during the first few levels.   The gap between your strength (melee AB) and dexterity (ranged AB) simply grows so large (and your dex stays so low) that you aren't going to hit anything with a ranged weapon with reasonable effectiveness.  Swapping to a ranged weapon is likely going to be 25% or less (most likely much less) damage compared to simply meleeing.  Simply not worth it...UNLESS you're making a dexterity fighter in which case you use your dexterity for both melee and ranged AB.

Empyre65 wrote...

If you start with 16 STR, you could have 12 DEX and 12 WIS, improving your saves and AC. After that, increase STR every chance you have, including 12 Great Strength feats in epic levels, and you would end up with 32 STR.

I usually go 17 str/13 dex/14 con/14 int/8 wis/8 con...but in most cases 18 str/12 con/13 int would actually be better (frees up an epic feat to get +10 skill or +4 saves or something else if that winds up being important) unless you really need that last skill point or that 7% more HP means something (less with con boosting items)

Empyre65 wrote...

For feats, Cleave is nice to have early on to give you an extra attack. If you also take Great Cleave and Improved Critical in late pre-epic, you are all set for Devastating Critical in epic levels. Also, if you are going to have Dev Crit, you might want to choose a scimitar instead of a longsword to have more critical hits.

Scimitar would be better assuming equal availability but it's not the end of the world either way.  You'll also want Improved Critical as soon as you can get it, more or less, and the same for Great Cleave -- Great Cleave winds up being much less value once you're not going to kill enemies in one hit and/or you have more attacks per round.

Empyre65 wrote...

A pure Fighter has so many feats, you might be able to afford to spend some of them on saves, like Luck of Heroes (level 1 only), Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will.

And Luck of Heroes/Strong Soul at level 1 (and are human for the latter) if you're really going crazy.  Pure fighters have feats to burn.

Elhanan wrote...

I would exchange that scimitar for something with a bit more heft for a STR build; perhaps something with a higher Critical modifier instead of a wider range (eg; warhammer, greataxe). No math expert, but it seems in play that this will yield better results with STR.

It won't yield better results.  A longsword and battleaxe are typically within 1% of each other for average damage done...and the scimitar is usually 10%ish better than either.  And against a crit immune foe, you're only one damage per hit behind which means little if you're hitting for 30+ damage.

I happen to possess some expertise at math and literally wrote a program to calculate this exact question since I was trying to get precise answers.  Give me an AB, AC, and the two types of weapons being compared and I'll tell you which is better versus crit vulnerable foes and by how much (I can throw in Imp Crit/Keen/WM feats as well as needed).

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 20 décembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[Aelis Eine]

I thought the best fighter in NWN is a Cleric

[Elhanan]

Nope; prefer to start with 14 STR, WIS, and DEX; granting +2 ST bonuses to all. Then with Feats to burn, adding Iron Will and possibly Lightning Ref to the mix. And as noted, Luck of Heroes is often added to boot.

Ranged has paid off when one cannot reach the opponents straight away, and allows for a faster response. And with enough invested in the bow, they do not always make it to melee. Prefer a wider killing range then hand to hand. And I continue to use ranged in Epic battles on PW while topped at 40th. And with STR builds, too.

But I do m/c often with Rogues for the versatility; pure Ftr is really not my design of choice. And while I am not an expert in math, I have seen triple digit damage with higher crit weapons; much higher dmg than seen with scimtars. This is game experience; perhaps speadsheets are different.

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

Nope; prefer to start with 14 STR, WIS, and DEX; granting +2 ST bonuses to all.

And your build will be inferior 99% of the time.  I'm not trying to be mean or cruel, that's simply the harsh truth.  You hit less often for less damage with no significant defensive benefits to outweigh the loss (getting feared 10% less often isn't useful).

Elhanan wrote...

And I continue to use ranged in Epic battles on PW while topped at 40th. And with STR builds, too.

Str build at level 40 has a mininum of 11 more AB in melee in addition to far, far more damage.  Quite possibly 17 more AB simply from Str versus Dex alone.  The only thing you're hitting is the broad side of a barn with AB that terrible.

Elhanan wrote...

And while I am not an expert in math, I have seen triple digit damage with higher crit weapons; much higher dmg than seen with scimtars. This is game experience; perhaps speadsheets are different.

The crits are higher, yes, but you crit far less often.  Would you rather be given $120 or three payments of $50?  The latter is more money overall though less in one chunk.

[Westan Willows]

I have notice that my first build does MORE damage and takes LESS damage than my last build.

[Elhanan]

Westan Willows wrote...

I have notice that my first build does MORE damage and takes LESS damage than my last build.

Perhaps it does, assuming one can hit the opposition in melee; a reason I try and keep range as a key element in my own builds. For me, gameplay is simply more than swinging my hammer or axe in place until something dies (or I try to do so anyway).

And they are called Saving Throws for a reason. Planning a build on the assumption of failure does not seem reasoned to me. While there are items that will protect against certain effects, acquiring them could prove to be difficult, esp at low levels. I yield higher STR to aid survival, and increase the overall adaptability of the character, even if it does not seem to look as good on paper.

[Aelis Eine]

I'm serious here. You really will make a better fighter with a Cleric.

Lets say you start as a Level 1 Cleric with 16 Str/8 Dex/16 Con/12 Int/16 Wis/6 Cha. You are behind by 2 AB and 1 AC compared to your first build.

On the other hand, you get Summon Badger. That alone is at least a huge boost to your DPS because it's both you and your Badger attacking at the same time. Your Badger can also tank for you, allowing you to flank the target for +2 AB. Add Bless to the equation and the AB gap is more than closed.

As you level up, your Bless and Aid spells become almost permanent, and on top of that you can take Extend Spell and cast buffs like Divine Favor and Divine Power. That will shoot your AB up 7 points higher than an equivalent Fighter.

You also get the spell Magic Vestment, which be cast on your armor and shield for another almost permanent boost. At 15 levels of Cleric, that's a total of +10 AC, and you get that far earlier than when most modules give that level of gear.

The HP gap is also closed once you get Improved Invisibility as a Cleric. That spell effectively doubles your HP versus melee enemies that do not have Blind Fight.

You also get spells like Protection from Evil, Clarity, Death Ward, Protection from Elements to ensure that you never have to leave things to chance, i.e. saving throws.

The way NWN works is you are either immune to something or you will die to it. Many module designers throw hordes of the same mob at you that use some kind of gimmick like Basilisks with Stone Gaze to fish for a 1 roll and then expects you watch paint dry as the mob tries to kill you while you are paralyzed for 40 minutes. That's why I am a huge proponent of immunities and pro-active defenses like Blind/Silence/Knockdown, which Clerics have in bucketloads.

And the thing is, a Cleric is not going to fight very differently from a Fighter. Once you get your buffs running, both classes fight the same way, i.e. left click and maybe spam Knockdown. As a Dwarf you can even take a level of Fighter early to get Longsword proficiency with no XP penalty so the weapons aren't even an issue.

On the other hand, the things you get in return - better base saves, lower item dependency, better AB and AC with buffs running, immunity to cheap kills, are things that are critical to Fighters, and yet unavailable to them. In single player environments, they are usually given to you after the stage of the game you need them most. On PWs, they usually require hardcore farming in a party or political connections with the DM team.

The main reason to play a Fighter is if you're playing with a friend who's a Cleric and the party can benefit from higher melee DPS - that's where the Fighter/Weapon Master comes in. Fighters don't even make very good tanks - they don't get any AC or mitigation buffs exclusive to them. Expertise and Epic Damage Reduction are available to every class. So Wizard/Pale Masters are higher DPS when tanking, while Dwarven Defender/Pale Masters with low level Bard or Wizard offer better mitigation.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 20 décembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Elhanan]

Personally, not much into Clerical spell duration being a cornerstone of a build. With Dispels and the like, I prefer a more permanent foundation.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

The best advice I can think to add here concerns some feats. There are 3 feats that are very useful for making a front line fighter, and to have all 3 of them will require a base DEX of 13. They are Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. I always give my fighters 13 DEX just to get those feats.

[Elhanan]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

The best advice I can think to add here concerns some feats. There are 3 feats that are very useful for making a front line fighter, and to have all 3 of them will require a base DEX of 13. They are Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. I always give my fighters 13 DEX just to get those feats.

I miss Bob, or was it Tom? Great build, though he was a WM, I believe; not a pure Fighter. Using a simple club as a secondary disciplinary device was classic!

[Shadooow]

Elhanan wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

The best advice I can think to add here concerns some feats. There are 3 feats that are very useful for making a front line fighter, and to have all 3 of them will require a base DEX of 13. They are Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. I always give my fighters 13 DEX just to get those feats.

I miss Bob, or was it Tom? Great build, though he was a WM, I believe; not a pure Fighter. Using a simple club as a secondary disciplinary device was classic!

unless the pure fighter is somehow boosted in environment you want to play it, it will be always worst choice amongst all fighter builds
fighter/WM
fighter/rdd
fighter/cleric/rogue (in any class distribution)

are all ten times better choices than anything you could ever cook with pure fighter, maybe with some rogue levels, all those extra feats might sound great but unless the module you play is limited to max lvl of 20 it won't pay off

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 20 décembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[henesua]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Nope; prefer to start with 14 STR, WIS, and DEX; granting +2 ST bonuses to all.

And your build will be inferior 99% of the time.  I'm not trying to be mean or cruel, that's simply the harsh truth.  You hit less often for less damage with no significant defensive benefits to outweigh the loss (getting feared 10% less often isn't useful).

This build might be combat inferior for a pure fighter in the OC, but given that PWs were mentioned there are most likely other factors involved than the pure numbers in combat for Elhanan's making such a choice.

Its helpful to limit such discussions to particular environments, and be explicit about the environment this is relating to. I think part of the problem in this discussion (and the myriad of others like it) is that NWN is incredibly diverse, and it is trivially easy to create rulesets which throw build optimizations on their head.

Granted the OP is discussing the original campaign. So I don't mean this as any criticism of you, MM. It is clear to me that you are talking about vanilla NWN. BUT one must keep in mind that there are so many ways to customize the game that there is no such thing as an optimized build across all environments.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

In his second post, the OP stated he was playing SoU. That's what I based my advice on.

@ Elhanan. Bob Johnson is that WM. Yeah... I still play him sometimes. He's a hoot.

[Westan Willows]

Right now he is in SoU. He started at str 18/dex 12/con 14/int 14/wis 8/cha 6. discipline 4 heal 4 search 2 tumble 2. So far he is doing well. He is hitting more often and doing more damage per hit. He is getting hit less often. Gregor what vantage does Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack have?

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Westan Willows wrote...

Right now he is in SoU. He started at str 18/dex 12/con 14/int 14/wis 8/cha 6. discipline 4 heal 4 search 2 tumble 2. So far he is doing well. He is hitting more often and doing more damage per hit. He is getting hit less often. Gregor what vantage does Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack have?

Dodge gives a +1 dodge bonus to armor class versus current or last opponent. Mobility gives a +4 dodge bonus to armor class versus attacks of oppurtunity. Spring attack prevents opponents from getting attacks of opportunity against your PC while moving around in combat. 

[Aelis Eine]

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, not much into Clerical spell duration being a cornerstone of a build. With Dispels and the like, I prefer a more permanent foundation.

Magic Vestment and Darkfire are undispellable and form the main buff foundation. The rest - Divine Favor, Divine Power should have a lot of redundancy i.e. lots of spell slots dedicated to it, so recasting should be easy.

As a melee Cleric there's no good alternative for level 1, 2, 4 and 5 slots anyway. As long as at least one is up you're already better than an equivalent Fighter. Now suppose as a level 10 Cleric you have 4 Divine Favors, 4 Extended Divine Favors, 3 Divine Powers and 3 Extended Divine Powers, that's a potential 21 minutes of "better than a Fighter" time. Who cares if a dispel knocks a minute or two off? And that number only goes up with more levels.

[Westan Willows]

Right now I am learning Fighter. I'll learn Cleric later. That Domain stuff overloads me.