114 réponses à ce sujet

[Westan Willows]

WM is just YUCK! I would go for something respectful like Rogue.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

And btw, if you have a pack of monsters why would you be running in a middle of them where they can easily surround you?

To draw them in for an AoE?  To reach an important target quickly like a caster?

I'm not saying you're doomed without it -- you're not doomed without Improved Critical either.  But it is a nice bonus.

Aelis Eine wrote...
@MM:

Bioware Social awfulness strikes again. Lets email this

Sure.  Though some of that fighter stuff is still relevant for this thread

Generally speaking I'm not claiming Fire Mountain was perfect by any means -- but for that project I did have my hands tied on just how drastically I could change some things.

P.S. Use com dot gmail at balkothwarcraft for my email (adjusted appropriately as I'm sure you can figure out).

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

WM is just YUCK! I would go for something respectful like Rogue.

Why is it just yuck?  It's a fighter with better offense.

[Westan Willows]

I just don't like WM. oh btw Seth's sister Lexi a lv 2 fighter lv 1 rogue killed that half orc in the OC

[Aelis Eine]

Yep, he's easy as long as he doesn't roll a crit. Statistically speaking, you have a higher chance of beating him than getting one-shotted, but around 1 in 100 players who engage him in direct melee will get one-shotted, and NWN sold more than 100 copies

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 23 décembre 2013 - 09:16 .

[Westan Willows]

True but you should be at lease lv 5 when you meet him

[Westan Willows]

Btw Lexi had Half Plate, Tower Shield for ac 23 Her WF is shortsword. and she has 5 tumble

[Gruftlord]

nod nod, the old: "why play a non-caster?" discussion.

yes, casters are generally better. epsecially a full buffed cleric trumps a fighter. more so in the official campaign, where resting is not an issue.
resting restrictions and spell changes (like changes to duration) may shift the balancing in an online environment. being a dedicated meleer with no buff oportiúnity will still make you a worthwhile aaddition to any team, if you bring lots of feats to the table. not gonna start a discussion whether cleric + figher is better than two clerics. that's just too situational. any yes, most situations favori two clerics.

still, there are people who love playing fighters. i know i do.

so to get some on topic advice:
fighter is great for versatility. if you want to go pure fighter, check the wiki to see which feats you may want to get. you will get a lot of feats, so you should plan ahead and work with that abundance. get offense and defence, make sure you have all the prereqs (e.g. dual wielding for offense requires 15 dex, imp expertise for defense requires 13 int.)
i like a human with 16 str, 15 dex, 14 in con and int for my fighters.
make sure to not waste too many regular (no fighter bonus) feats. take other things on those levels, that may help you otherwise (e.g. saving throw feats, more below).
if you were playing in a challanging environment with low magic items, you may want to think about investing in two different weapons (scimitar for crit, warhammer against undead for example).

this is what you should think about, when making a pure fighter.
but honestly, i wouldn't do it.
melle classes lend them selves much better to multiclassing than casters. you don't lose much, but only gain new feats you couldn't otherwise. casters allways lose some casting power when multiclassing. so use this to your advantage.

e.g. by level 20 when going rogue 4/fighter 16 you lose a few HP, 1 AB and two feats vs a pure fighter.
look at the feats you want, and if you find you don't need those two, why not do it?
you gain evasion, 2d6 sneak attack, increased reflex save, lots of additional skillpoints and the opportunity to skilldump in many many usefull skills.

and while you are at it, swithing 10 fighter levels for chanpion of torm adds +5 to all saves without losing anything.

here's a character i like to play. has lots of versatility (imp expertise, improved two weapon fighting, power attack, impressive saving throws for a non paladin, evasion and slippery mind. doesn't deal criticals but goes bludgeoning (good against skeletons) with some nice sneak attacks (good against most others) on top for damage. mainly done for PVE and party play. fills the role of tank or Damager depending on needs. of course for tough dungeons extra buffs are needed, but who doesn't need them?)

Rogue(16), Fighter(14), Champion of Torm(10), Human

STR: 16 (32)
DEX: 15
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Rogue(1): Strong Soul, Luck of Heroes
02: Fighter(1): Expertise
03: Fighter(2): Knockdown, Improved Expertise
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(4): Weapon Focus: Mace
06: Fighter(5): Weapon Specialization: Mace
07: Fighter(6): Two-Weapon Fighting
08: Rogue(2): STR+1, {Evasion}, (STR=18)
09: Champion of Torm(1): Iron Will
10: Champion of Torm(2): Blind Fight
11: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}
12: Champion of Torm(4): STR+1, Ambidexterity, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (STR=19)
13: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
14: Champion of Torm(5)
15: Champion of Torm(6): Improved Knockdown, Power Attack
16: Champion of Torm(7): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Champion of Torm(8): Cleave
18: Rogue(4): Great Cleave
19: Champion of Torm(9)
20: Champion of Torm(10): STR+1, Dodge, (STR=21)
21: Rogue(5): Epic Will
22: Rogue(6)
23: Rogue(7)
24: Fighter(7): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=23)
25: Fighter(8): Epic Weapon Focus: Mace
26: Fighter(9)
27: Fighter(10): Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Specialization: Mace, (STR=24)
28: Rogue(8): STR+1, (STR=25)
29: Rogue(9)
30: Rogue(10): Great Strength III, Slippery Mind, (STR=26)
31: Rogue(11)
32: Rogue(12): STR+1, (STR=27)
33: Fighter(11): Great Strength IV, (STR=28)
34: Fighter(12): Armor Skin
35: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
36: Rogue(14): STR+1, Great Strength V, (STR=30)
37: Rogue(15)
38: Fighter(13)
39: Fighter(14): Great Strength VI, Epic Prowess, (STR=31)
40: Rogue(16): STR+1, Improved Sneak Attack I, (STR=32)

Hitpoints: 416
Skillpoints: 329
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 32/28/31
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +3, Death: +1
BAB: 29
AB (max, naked): 44 (melee), 32 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 22/32
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Disable Trap 1(3), Discipline 42(53), Hide 43(45), Listen 43(42), Move Silently 43(45), Open Lock 32(34), Search 43(45), Set Trap 1(3), Tumble 40(42), UMD 41(40)

only 14 levels of fighter, but you tell me: enough fighter in this guy? i see him mostly as a fighter, despite the rather even multiclass split.

Modifié par Gruftlord, 23 décembre 2013 - 11:50 .

[Aelis Eine]

Westan Willows wrote...

True but you should be at lease lv 5 when you meet him

Nah, he's pretty doable at level 1.

I actually dusted the OC off just to check MM's claim that the boss was designed for level 5 to 6. So first thing, all the trash outside had 10-15 HP and were trivially easy. Hardly the kind of content for level 5 to 6 characters. Second thing, Loxar himself is a Level 10 Fighter with 132 HP. In MM's own words:

There should not be incredible difficulty spikes.  We should not be adventuring and slaughtering orcs with 5 AB and 10 HP and then get slaughtered by the orc chief with 25 AB and 200 HP.  Challenge is fine, we like challenge.  But that's not challenge.

I think that's an incredible difficulty spike right there

But anyway, I decided to kick his behind just for fun, so here's a video of me beating Loxar at level 1, with 14 AC and 3 HP. I opened my stat window at the end: 

This was done with a legit character on D&D3 Hardcore difficulty, and easily replicable by anyone who's watched the video

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:09 .

[Squatting Monk]

Aelis Eine wrote...

But anyway, I decided to kick his behind just for fun, so here's a video of me beating Loxar at level 1, with 14 AC and 3 HP. I opened my stat window at the end: 

Not that your AC or HP mattered much, since he was tied up with your summon and familiar. How would a level 1 fighter do in that same situation?

Aelis Eine wrote...

Maybe so, but a class shouldn't be judged by the easiest content in the spectrum. If a mod is easy enough that I can go through it meleeing everything straight up as a Rogue without the need for traps, KD, stealth or a henchman, is that really learning to play the class? What if I do the same as a Cleric without ever using a single spell?

Interestingly enough, my first play through the OC was as a cleric. I didn't follow the spell-casting tutorial well enough, so I didn't know how to cast spells that weren't already on my hotbar. Ended up going through everything up until the final boss fight before figuring it out.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 23 décembre 2013 - 02:12 .

[Aelis Eine]

Squatting Monk wrote...

Not that your AC or HP mattered much, since he was tied up with your summon and familiar. How would a level 1 fighter do in that same situation?

The Fighter would need a totally different strategy. I think a Dex-based Halfling Fighter with Called Shot and Point Blank Shot could do it, but would have to pull him out of the house and kite him, and can't install Shadooow's patch. Barbarian would have a better shot.

[MagicalMaster]

Aelis Eine wrote...

I actually dusted the OC off just to check MM's claim that the boss was designed for level 5 to 6. So first thing, all the trash outside had 10-15 HP and were trivially easy. Hardly the kind of content for level 5 to 6 characters.

You're supposed to be level 3 at the beginning of Chapter 1 and you're told to do the Peninsula first.  I think you're even encouraged to do Beggar's Nest second, so you don't find that guy until you're likely level 6-7 for most characters, 5 worst case.  So yes, the trash is stupidly easy (which is a consistent theme throughout the whole campaign) but the boss himself is fine.

[Shadooow]

Aelis Eine wrote...

But anyway, I decided to kick his behind just for fun, so here's a video of me beating Loxar at level 1, with 14 AC and 3 HP. I opened my stat window at the end: 

This was done with a legit character on D&D3 Hardcore difficulty, and easily replicable by anyone who's watched the video

im shocked that tactics like using a bugged shelgarns dagger for tank monsters or stacking regeneration are still considered to be a standard :innocent:

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 23 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[henesua]

I prefer my rewrite of shelgarn's spell as animate knife.

[Aelis Eine]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
im shocked that tactics like using a bugged shelgarns dagger for tank monsters or stacking regeneration are still considered to be a standard :innocent:

Shelgarn's is bugged? 

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 23 décembre 2013 - 11:06 .

[Aelis Eine]

MagicalMaster wrote...

You're supposed to be level 3 at the beginning of Chapter 1 and you're told to do the Peninsula first.  I think you're even encouraged to do Beggar's Nest second, so you don't find that guy until you're likely level 6-7 for most characters, 5 worst case.  So yes, the trash is stupidly easy (which is a consistent theme throughout the whole campaign) but the boss himself is fine.

They presented it as an either/or rather than a this then that then that.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 23 décembre 2013 - 11:07 .

[Westan Willows]

@ Aelis How playable is that Sorc?

[Aelis Eine]

Westan Willows wrote...

@ Aelis How playable is that Sorc?

The answer to that should be quite obvious - it kills level 10 bosses!

It's also quite easy to adapt to a normal OC build. I put points into Str and Dex to maximize Crossbow damage. Since the OC starts you at level 3, you can move 2 Dex to Con and start the game with higher Con to get the same AB with much higher HP.

I also beat that with a healthy amount of duration left on the second dagger. If I had played perfectly, i.e. call Doggie back after refreshing the dagger, I'd have been able to cut the time down further. It'd be pretty safe to drop 2 more points from Strength to put into Con.

That said, I think way back in the day someone attempted, as a challenge, to do the OC on Hard Difficulty as an Elven Wizard with 6 Con, so it should be pretty doable as-is.

[Westan Willows]

No. After the Peninsula you are left on your own. The only clue is that the gate guard at the Beggar's Nest knows who you are. Nome of the others do.

[Shadooow]

Aelis Eine wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
im shocked that tactics like using a bugged shelgarns dagger for tank monsters or stacking regeneration are still considered to be a standard :innocent:

Shelgarn's is bugged? 

yes it has 25/+1 dr instead of 5/+1, if you had my patch you wouldnt be able to kill him^_^

anyway, great video and boss kill, i like it! and I saw there bug I had no knowledge about so I can add it into my patch

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[Aelis Eine]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
yes it has 25/+1 dr instead of 5/+1, if you had my patch you wouldnt be able to kill him^_^

anyway, great video and boss kill, i like it! and I saw there bug I had no knowledge about so I can add it into my patch

There's another bug? I'm guessing the summon wasn't mindspell immune.

With the patch I'd have around a 5% chance of killing him I think :x Will need to connect 4 Color Sprays in a row and the average Color Spray needs to be 3 rounds.

[Shadooow]

[quote]Aelis Eine wrote...
There's another bug?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie] I'm guessing the summon wasn't mindspell immune.[/quote]
[/quote]
yea, missing all construct properties

[MagicalMaster]

Aelis Eine wrote...

It's also quite easy to adapt to a normal OC build. I put points into Str and Dex to maximize Crossbow damage.

Crossbows don't take a damage penalty for having less than 10 Strength.

[Aelis Eine]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Crossbows don't take a damage penalty for having less than 10 Strength.

Dammit! I made it unnecessarily harder for myself >:|

Also, no angry face on smileys list. That's just ridiculous.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[Westan Willows]

@ Gruftlord Why WF Mace?