750 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Il Divo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Taking Javik to Thessia made a big impact to me. Locking him behind a paywall was lame. 

Making a big impact on you personally and being plot critical are two completely different things. Javik should enhance your experience.

The key question is: did he provide any narrative exposition without which ME3's plot is unable to stand on its own?

I've done only two play throughs of ME3, the first being without Javik. There was no point where I found myself saying "the things happening on screen make no sense to me".

Uhm... What? Since when was it law the DLC should always enhance ones understanding of the game? I have been perfectly satisfied with simple appearance packs, and that is the ONLY rule DLC should adhere to. Satisfaction of the costumer.

That you, for whatever reason, feels that ALL dlc should be story relevant and expand upon already established lore, and bring crucial previously unknown knowledge, is just that. Personal preference. Ultiamtely you as a single person is irrelevant. Personally I couldnøt give less of a **** about story in DLC, as long as it lives up to my entertainment demands. Be that appearance packs or add-ons.

[leaguer of one]

addiction21 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

1. So everything on Thessia says the same... No way is there a big reveal on how the Asari were modified by the prothean is not added to the story with the dlc...
2.Yes it does. It a strong and new weighter perspective that effect what the player will choose.

3.Right, so some how making people pay extra for a character with that strong of presence and has a big reveal in a curucal part of the game is a good thing?

1. I didn't say it stays the same. It adds nothing to the story or plot of the game. It adds some lore. No different then if you bring Liara along to Thessia she is shocked to discover there is a beacon there.  It doesn't drastically change anything.

2. see 1.

3. See 1

What I am getting from you is that DLC should be entirely irrelevant to the game and universe like Darkspawn Chronicles. That if its a companion it should be like Kasumi or Zeade who have a mission maybe a toss away like somewhere in the game and stand there spouting one liners when you try to talk to them.

Yes, it does. She even more shocked that her people are the product of the Protheans even argues with Javil about it through out the entire mission. She goes on with the arguement even after that Mision. It's a big difference.

And your still not getting it. The issue is not a problem with DLC, it how day one dlc is done. I would have no problem with Javik's dlc if it came out a month or 2 after the launch. My issue it seems to be made with details to the plot so close to end of production of the main game. Note this is dlc with a strong presence in the plot you have to pay extra to get at lauch. Person can easily feel that it was intentionally cut from the game.

[Il Divo]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Taking Javik to Thessia made a big impact to me. Locking him behind a paywall was lame. 

Making a big impact on you personally and being plot critical are two completely different things. Javik should enhance your experience.

The key question is: did he provide any narrative exposition without which ME3's plot is unable to stand on its own?

I've done only two play throughs of ME3, the first being without Javik. There was no point where I found myself saying "the things happening on screen make no sense to me".

Uhm... What? Since when was it law the DLC should always enhance ones understanding of the game? I have been perfectly satisfied with simple appearance packs, and that is the ONLY rule DLC should adhere to. Satisfaction of the costumer.

That you, for whatever reason, feels that ALL dlc should be story relevant and expand upon already established lore, and bring crucial previously unknown knowledge, is just that. Personal preference. Ultiamtely you as a single person is irrelevant. Personally I couldnøt give less of a **** about story in DLC, as long as it lives up to my entertainment demands. Be that appearance packs or add-ons.

It's not. I recommend less foaming at the mouth crazy and a bit more reading comprehension on your part.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:04 .

[leaguer of one]

Il Divo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Taking Javik to Thessia made a big impact to me. Locking him behind a paywall was lame. 

Making a big impact on you personally and being plot critical are two completely different things. Javik should enhance your experience.

The key question is: did he provide any narrative exposition without which ME3's plot is unable to stand on its own?

I've done only two play throughs of ME3, the first being without Javik. There was no point where I found myself saying "the things happening on screen make no sense to me".

That should not be a case of evaluationg it. Sure thing are still going to make sense with out him but with him more story and detail are given to see the full understanding of wants going on. He character is so big a presence that he change how you see things in the plot.

[BouncyFrag]

Il Divo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Taking Javik to Thessia made a big impact to me. Locking him behind a paywall was lame. 

Making a big impact on you personally and being plot critical are two completely different things. Javik should enhance your experience.

The key question is: did he provide any narrative exposition without which ME3's plot is unable to stand on its own?

I've done only two play throughs of ME3, the first being without Javik. There was no point where I found myself saying "the things happening on screen make no sense to me".

Where did I say that things didn't make sense to me? His content, to me, feels like it should have been part of the main game. Support the dlc train that gaming has been on full speed ahead if you like. Its still lame.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I haven't sat down and done the math, but every single one of his party banter comments, comments on events/locations, all of his combat animations, powers/leveling system, combat dialogue (barks, as they are sometimes called) and his dialouge outside of his recruitment mission is on the disc. 

Basically, you download the Eden Prime mission and unlock the character. "90%" is a hard thing to calculate (is a combat animation worth 5%? 10%), but the character himself was on the disc, by and large. You just wouldn't have the mission to GET him unless you paid extra (or, as an earlier video demonstrated, you have the PC version and make one value change in a hex editor). 

And I never said he was cut to nickel-and-dime players. But he WAS cut, despite having a very large portion of his content completed at Gold and included on the disc. To say otherwise is misleading at best, lying at worse.

I don't see how that proves he was cut from the main game at all. If a business decision is made from the outset to have DLC, and a separate budget is made, then it makes business sense to use the extra resources when it's most efficient. So if you can get the actor in the booth early, then it makes sense to pay the VA early rather than later, and then dump it on the CD pre-release. 

A companion is basically (i) writing (ii) VO (iii) interchangeable combat animations, because almost no party member has unique combat animations (the only one I can sort of think is Shale or Dog, but both shared their animations with enemy characters); and (iii) the actual character specific in-game content (like level design). 

The writers could have written Javik very late, record his VO very late and designed his combat animations very late, but still have done all this before the game was going gold. And then everyone moves to actual level creation etc. afterwards. 

It's a totally viable business model, and doesn't prove that this is content that would have been in the game at all. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Il Divo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Taking Javik to Thessia made a big impact to me. Locking him behind a paywall was lame. 

Making a big impact on you personally and being plot critical are two completely different things. Javik should enhance your experience.

The key question is: did he provide any narrative exposition without which ME3's plot is unable to stand on its own?

I've done only two play throughs of ME3, the first being without Javik. There was no point where I found myself saying "the things happening on screen make no sense to me".

Uhm... What? Since when was it law the DLC should always enhance ones understanding of the game? I have been perfectly satisfied with simple appearance packs, and that is the ONLY rule DLC should adhere to. Satisfaction of the costumer.

That you, for whatever reason, feels that ALL dlc should be story relevant and expand upon already established lore, and bring crucial previously unknown knowledge, is just that. Personal preference. Ultiamtely you as a single person is irrelevant. Personally I couldnøt give less of a **** about story in DLC, as long as it lives up to my entertainment demands. Be that appearance packs or add-ons.

It's not. I recommend less foaming at the mouth crazy and a bit more reading comprehension on your part.

If it is not a requirement, then what exactly was the problem with Javik? He addded a unique new companion who brought a differnet set of skills to the party, he offered a new perspective on the events of the game, and he had full interactions with other party members.

So what exactly was wrong with that particular piece of DLC? If not your vaunted "enrichment of main plot".

[Il Divo]

leaguer of one wrote...

That should not be a case of evaluationg it. Sure thing are still going to make sense with out him but with him more story and detail are given to see the full understanding of wants going on. He character is so big a presence that he change how you see things in the plot.

And this is why your argument is problematic. ME3 as a whole game functions quite easily without Javik. He provides background details. The very reason for paying for this content is to enhance your overall experience. Explaining (for example) how the Cipher functions isn't a critical plot detail. We had two full Mass Effect games without knowing how the Cipher worked, with no problems.

If the preferred alternative for players is that Bioware gives this content out for free, the more likely scenario is that they'll simply start issuing out filler content in the style of Overlord as their day 1 dlc. There's nothing wrong with that, but given that the opinion of many is that "From Ashes was great, but it should have been free", the problem isn't likely fixable in the manner people are expecting.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:13 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I haven't sat down and done the math, but every single one of his party banter comments, comments on events/locations, all of his combat animations, powers/leveling system, combat dialogue (barks, as they are sometimes called) and his dialouge outside of his recruitment mission is on the disc. 

Basically, you download the Eden Prime mission and unlock the character. "90%" is a hard thing to calculate (is a combat animation worth 5%? 10%), but the character himself was on the disc, by and large. You just wouldn't have the mission to GET him unless you paid extra (or, as an earlier video demonstrated, you have the PC version and make one value change in a hex editor). 

And I never said he was cut to nickel-and-dime players. But he WAS cut, despite having a very large portion of his content completed at Gold and included on the disc. To say otherwise is misleading at best, lying at worse.

I don't see how that proves he was cut from the main game at all. If a business decision is made from the outset to have DLC, and a separate budget is made, then it makes business sense to use the extra resources when it's most efficient. So if you can get the actor in the booth early, then it makes sense to pay the VA early rather than later, and then dump it on the CD pre-release. 

A companion is basically (i) writing (ii) VO (iii) interchangeable combat animations, because almost no party member has unique combat animations (the only one I can sort of think is Shale or Dog, but both shared their animations with enemy characters); and (iii) the actual character specific in-game content (like level design). 

The writers could have written Javik very late, record his VO very late and designed his combat animations very late, but still have done all this before the game was going gold. And then everyone moves to actual level creation etc. afterwards. 

It's a totally viable business model, and doesn't prove that this is content that would have been in the game at all. 

You're not seeing how it fishy that a character the reveil so much detail about the lore, races, perpective, about a mestrious dead race, and has a story  relivence in thessia get done last but a character that does not really add anything the the plot like James kept in the story(Mind you I do like James.)

[Il Divo]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If it is not a requirement, then what exactly was the problem with Javik? He addded a unique new companion who brought a differnet set of skills to the party, he offered a new perspective on the events of the game, and he had full interactions with other party members.

So what exactly was wrong with that particular piece of DLC? If not your vaunted "enrichment of main plot".

There is no problem with Javik. That is my point.

The arguments I have been disputing are that Javik needed to be provided in the main game and is critical to the experience. If Javik was critical to ME3's plot, then he should be included free of charge. But since Javik is not critical to any coherent understanding of the main story, he is simply enjoyable content which is designed to enhance the player's experience, which at its core is what all dlc is designed to do.

Any more questions?

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

leaguer of one wrote...

You're not seeing how it fishy that a character the reveil so much detail about the lore, races, perpective, about a mestrious dead race, and has a story  relivence in thessia get done last but a character that does not really add anything the the plot like James kept in the story(Mind you I do like James.)

James was designed not to add much to the lore, since he was supposed to represent the newcomers to the franchise's view points.

[addiction21]

leaguer of one wrote...


]Yes, it does. She even more shocked that her people are the product of the Protheans even argues with Javil about it through out the entire mission. She goes on with the arguement even after that Mision. It's a big difference.

None of that is special to Javik. That is what the companions do. Javik there doesn't change the mission in any way nor does he change the story or plot in anyway.

I guess you would just prefer Javik stands stoically in some corner of the Normanday and told you knock knock jokes?

ME3 plays out exactly the same with or with out Javik. He gives you nothing about that games plot or story. Liara knows more about the crucible then he does. Leviathan gives you the real story about the Reapers. Javik at best is a lore dump and if he never existed would not be missed in any way at all.

You and others continue to complain that he has interactions with you, the game and other companions like its a bad thing. I give you the ME2 companions that DID NOTHING but a mission and stood giving you one liners. Is that what you want? Cardboard cutouts that have a irrelevant mission and dialogue?

leaguer of one wrote...


And your still not getting it. The issue is not a problem with DLC, it how day one dlc is done. I would have no problem with Javik's dlc if it came out a month or 2 after the launch. My issue it seems to be made with details to the plot so close to end of production of the main game. Note this is dlc with a strong presence in the plot you have to pay extra to get at lauch. Person can easily feel that it was intentionally cut from the game.

No I get it. Itsgood quality, incorporated into the game, and its not free. How dare they create a quality product and ask to be paid for it.

You can keep repeating how Javik has "a strong presence in the plot" and I am going to continue to shack my head because its empty rhetoric because he has nothing to do with the plot. The plot remains the same with or with out Javik. ME3' plot does not change at all in anyway without Javik. In truth I am pretty sure you don't know what a plot is or means.

[addiction21]

leaguer of one wrote...

That should not be a case of evaluationg it.

Since that is the crux of your arguments it should be and no he only changes how you view the Protheans. Something you would not even miss if Javik was never made.

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
You're not seeing how it fishy that a character the reveil so much detail about the lore, races, perpective, about a mestrious dead race, and has a story  relivence in thessia get done last but a character that does not really add anything the the plot like James kept in the story(Mind you I do like James.)

I don't think Jaavik adds anything to the plot. And I definetly think his impact in Thessia is overblown. My internet was down when I played ME3 the first time so I saw Thessia without him, and I got exactly the same plot point: the Asari were engineered to be what they are by the Protheans. 

I mean, I suppose without Jaavik I wouldn't think the Protheans are an empire of bigoted imperalist space racists/slavers, but that didn't really improve my experience of ME3. 

I do agree that Jaavik >>> James, but in that sense I don't blame Bioware for making a "cooler" character the DLC character. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Il Divo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If it is not a requirement, then what exactly was the problem with Javik? He addded a unique new companion who brought a differnet set of skills to the party, he offered a new perspective on the events of the game, and he had full interactions with other party members.

So what exactly was wrong with that particular piece of DLC? If not your vaunted "enrichment of main plot".

There is no problem with Javik. That is my point.

The arguments I have been disputing are that Javik needed to be provided in the main game and is critical to the experience. If Javik was critical to ME3's plot, then he should be included free of charge. But since Javik is not critical to any coherent understanding of the main story, he is simply enjoyable content which is designed to enhance the player's experience, which at its core is what all dlc is designed to do.

Any more questions?

So we are in agreement, but because I misunderstood your original point, you decided to be a dick? Nice... You must make tons of friends.

[leaguer of one]

Il Divo wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That should not be a case of evaluationg it. Sure thing are still going to make sense with out him but with him more story and detail are given to see the full understanding of wants going on. He character is so big a presence that he change how you see things in the plot.

And this is why your argument is problematic. ME3 as a whole game functions quite easily without Javik. He provides background details. The very reason for paying for this content is to enhance your overall experience. Explaining (for example) how the Cipher functions isn't a critical plot detail. We had two full Mass Effect games without knowing how the Cipher worked, with no problems.

If the preferred alternative for players is that Bioware gives this content out for free, the more likely scenario is that they'll simply start issuing out filler content in the style of Overlord as their day 1 dlc. There's nothing wrong with that, but given that the opinion of many is that "From Ashes was great, but it should have been free", the problem isn't likely fixable in the manner people are expecting.

Sorry but I don't feel that saying "the games and story works with out him"  is ground to give dlc like his a pass.

The game and story working with out dlc is and should te bare miniamal of nessary fuctionality of a game. Like how a mamal breathing air is the minaimal nessary fuction for it to be alive. DLC in it own right sould add on to the plot and story but in a way that does not feel the detail it adds excludes things from the plot and story. Javik'd dlc feel that it is be how much he influences Thessia. He has a heavy plot relivence.

Saying that the game is fuctional with out him does not give it a pass.

[Il Divo]

leaguer of one wrote...

Sorry but I don't feel that saying "the games and story works with out him"  is ground to give dlc like his a pass.

The game and story working with out dlc is and should te bare miniamal of nessary fuctionality of a game. Like how a mamal breathing air is the minaimal nessary fuction for it to be alive. DLC in it own right sould add on to the plot and story but in a way that does not feel the detail it adds excludes things from the plot and story. Javik'd dlc feel that it is be how much he influences Thessia. He has a heavy plot relivence.

Saying that the game is fuctional with out him does not give it a pass.

As Addiction pointed out, would you prefer Javik fades in the background and does nothing? Kasumi and Zaeed do plenty of that and their content is not for the better.

Javik gets a pass because you have an independent narrative on whose own merits you have the ability to decide whether ME3 as a whole was enjoyable or not. And ME3 has plenty of plot and story (and by many opinions an atrocious ending) on its own. Saying Javik enhanced your experience is not an argument to his being included in the main game. He's separate paid content. Assuming Bioware didn't do a bad job, he should be enhancing your experience.

As I said, if that's your argument, it's less likely Bioware is going to give out content like Javik or Leviathan for free and more likely that they're going to make filler content the focus of their day 1 dlc. As a business, I can't say content like Bringing Down the Sky is likely to generate the same hype as Javik the Prothean or Shale the golem.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[LinksOcarina]

I don't know why you are all arguing with a leaguer of one, there is no point to it because of blind devotion to an ideal.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
You're not seeing how it fishy that a character the reveil so much detail about the lore, races, perpective, about a mestrious dead race, and has a story  relivence in thessia get done last but a character that does not really add anything the the plot like James kept in the story(Mind you I do like James.)

I don't think Jaavik adds anything to the plot. And I definetly think his impact in Thessia is overblown. My internet was down when I played ME3 the first time so I saw Thessia without him, and I got exactly the same plot point: the Asari were engineered to be what they are by the Protheans. 

I mean, I suppose without Jaavik I wouldn't think the Protheans are an empire of bigoted imperalist space racists/slavers, but that didn't really improve my experience of ME3. 

I do agree that Jaavik >>> James, but in that sense I don't blame Bioware for making a "cooler" character the DLC character. 

" My internet was down when I played ME3 the first time so I saw Thessia without him, and I got exactly the same plot point: the Asari were engineered to be what they are by the Protheans. "

Not possible. They don't even talk about the possiblity of it with out Javik being there.

Source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_eGmQjTsNBs#t=615

[leaguer of one]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I don't know why you are all arguing with a leaguer of one, there is no point to it because of blind devotion to an ideal.

I can't beleive a person with a Selarian pick does not get the refernce of Leaguer of one. If ou still don't get it here's a medaliton.

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
" My internet was down when I played ME3 the first time so I saw Thessia without him, and I got exactly the same plot point: the Asari were engineered to be what they are by the Protheans. "

Not possible. They don't even talk about the possiblity of it with out Javik being there.

Source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_eGmQjTsNBs#t=615

They all but spell it out. Do you want me to give you the quotes and images that make it clear that the Asari were engineered? 

It comes down to the fact that the Asari had access to a Prothean beacon, it was kept in a temple dedicated to a religion where biotics came from their gods, and the asari did everything possible to hide it. Just look at the art on 12:24! 

Not to mention this is like the oldest sci-fi trope in the book. 

[leaguer of one]

Il Divo wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Sorry but I don't feel that saying "the games and story works with out him"  is ground to give dlc like his a pass.

The game and story working with out dlc is and should te bare miniamal of nessary fuctionality of a game. Like how a mamal breathing air is the minaimal nessary fuction for it to be alive. DLC in it own right sould add on to the plot and story but in a way that does not feel the detail it adds excludes things from the plot and story. Javik'd dlc feel that it is be how much he influences Thessia. He has a heavy plot relivence.

Saying that the game is fuctional with out him does not give it a pass.

As Addiction pointed out, would you prefer Javik fades in the background and does nothing? Kasumi and Zaeed do plenty of that and their content is not for the better.

Javik gets a pass because you have an independent narrative on whose own merits you have the ability to decide whether ME3 as a whole was enjoyable or not. And ME3 has plenty of plot and story (and by many opinions an atrocious ending) on its own. Saying Javik enhanced your experience is not an argument to his being included in the main game. He's separate paid content. Assuming Bioware didn't do a bad job, he should be enhancing your experience.

As I said, if that's your argument, it's less likely Bioware is going to give out content like Javik or Leviathan for free and more likely that they're going to make filler content the focus of their day 1 dlc. As a business, I can't say content like Bringing Down the Sky is likely to generate the same hype as Javik the Prothean or Shale the golem.

You make it sound like they absolutly have to charge for him. Do they? Would people be upset over him if he was avalible for no extra cost with a new purchage of the games. My issue with him is being day one dlc a person has to get for paying extra no matter what. Making his dlc of less quality  makes no differance.

I also don;t have an issue with Leviathen ether.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
" My internet was down when I played ME3 the first time so I saw Thessia without him, and I got exactly the same plot point: the Asari were engineered to be what they are by the Protheans. "

Not possible. They don't even talk about the possiblity of it with out Javik being there.

Source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_eGmQjTsNBs#t=615

They all but spell it out. Do you want me to give you the quotes and images that make it clear that the Asari were engineered? 

It comes down to the fact that the Asari had access to a Prothean beacon, it was kept in a temple dedicated to a religion where biotics came from their gods, and the asari did everything possible to hide it. Just look at the art on 12:24! 

Not to mention this is like the oldest sci-fi trope in the book. 

No they did not. They did not even hint at it in any voical  drect or indirect way. It they did please point it out in the vid I just posted.

Saying look at the art makes no diffence be that the art does not go into detail on what the protheans did. They being involve in Asari culture is one thing but no way can you say you got that Prothean geneticly manipulated the asari from the art. That's a huge jump to conclusions.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:43 .

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...
No they did not. They did not even hint at it in any voical  drect or indirect way. It they did please point it out in the vid I just posted.

I just explained it to you.

Say look at the art, makes no diffence be that the art does not go into detail on what the protheans did. They being involve in Asari culture is one thing but no way can you say you got that Prothean geneticly manipulated the asari from the art. That's a huge jump to conclusions. 

No, it's not. It's a "I've actually read science-fiction" before jump to conclusions. We have a lost "super-secret" Prothean beacon, a conversation where Liara is in absolute denial about everything, a conversation that sets up that this Prothean beacon was actually the source of all Asari advances, and the general sci-fi rule of everything is seeded. 

[addiction21]

leaguer of one wrote...

You make it sound like they absolutly have to charge for him. Do they? Would people be upset over him if he was avalible for no extra cost with a new purchage of the games. My issue with him is being day one dlc a person has to get for paying extra no matter what. Making his dlc of less quality  makes no differance.

They are a business you should expect to pay for their goods. They should be making something people want to pay for. That is the goal of any business.

No they do not have to charge for DLC but that is their prerogative and if they decide to put a price tag on it then it should not be held against them for doing so.

Of course people wouldn't be upset if it was free. People will take anything even if they will just throw it in the trash a few seconds later if its free.