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Don't do Day 1 DLC


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#351
Paul E Dangerously

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Il Divo wrote...
And you don't need Javik at the start. Do you see where I'm going with this? Every consumer has some notion in their head of what should and should not be included in a package, whether reasonable or unreasonable. Bioware's not going to make Javik free because leaguer of one feels cheated. Consumers typically want as much as they can get with a product.


The problem with this is that players felt cheated, and rightfully so, given that the previous three games (DAO, DA2, ME2) had the DLC (yet mostly on disc) character "free" with the purchase of a new game. Bioware then hikes it up $10 for ME3 and thinks people aren't going to call them on the carpet for it.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 24 décembre 2013 - 11:43 .


#352
Fast Jimmy

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I think this is a foolish approach to take. Why would anyone want to pay a larger base price, rather than have more precise control over what they're purchasing?


Because a higher base game price has to be earned.

DLC, as a model, is way too expensive from a cost-benefit ratio. I buy a game with 40+ hours of content, ten companions, a large main story campaign, a large amount of side quests, all gear/equipment, skills and abilities for $60. Then I get one more companion, usually with no significantly different skills or abilities, and one or two more quests to recruit them and maybe complete a loyalty mission for an additional $10. I'm paying over 15% more above the base sticker price for a companion, which there are already ten others in the base game.

The same goes with microtransactions. I can buy a base game for $)0, but then spend $5-$10 to level up faster or unlock gear early or what have you. The only value it adds is convenience in many cases.

BUT... a game with a $70 price tag? The market as it exists today would demand a higher quality title. If a consumer says "well, I can buy TW3, the new Madden, the new CoD and the new TES game for $60... why should I buy a Bioware game for $70?" then that sets the expectation that quality, length and overall enjoyment is higher. A modular selling design doesn't allow for new feature to be added, or better QA to be implemented, or more versatile design to be applied, or for replayability to be increased. You sell a small experience at an inflated cost in relation to what the consumer pays for the base game and can get away with a standard quality, or even mediocre quality, and still result in sales of the DLC.

The first games to have $70 price tags will demand a huge level of expectation. Even when it becomes more accepted after the first dozen or so titles, many player will never pay more than $60 a title, simply because that has been the baseline price for too long and has artificially set the expectation of being the "real" price of what a game should be. The market would segment itself naturally between the "elite" $70 titles and the "standard" $60 ones. If a game tries to sell itself as elite and isn't fantastic (let alone mediocre or bad), then gamers will criticize it much more brutally than a $60 title.

That's the benefit. A $70 base game has to earn that price tag. But Bioware has shown that I you slap a $10 price tag on a throw away piece of content, people will buy it if they hype and market it enough. I'd rather the price (and, hence, the expectation of quality) be attached to the base game, not an optional piece of DLC.

Because the gamer's perception (there's the magic word!) will be different with a $70 game versus a $60 game with a very hooked $10 D1DLC, then the reality of the game will have to BE different, otherwise the game will be harshly judged for gameplay feature omissions, short content or other features. Basically, people will see a 15% higher price tag and ACTUALLY EXPECT 15% more or better of a game, instead of just taking the table scraps of a D1DLC.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:37 .


#353
Fast Jimmy

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that's the irony of this situation, BioWare hooks people so damn well were still foolishly debating the merits of certain characters thrown into the mix of the game. Truth be told the Mass Effect 2 model is probably best; offer a service for free DLC (and one paid one, like Zaeed) for a smaller price over say, a season pass for $30.00.

There are several models that have proven to work, of course the ones used tend to be the ones that are a compromise between the retailers and the consumers. The Cerberus Network was not well-received by companies like Gamestop, for example, because it undercutted the used game market too heavily. 


But see, I'm not arguing a Season Pass model for $30. If you ask me, that is the most terribad DLC model the industry has created. Essentially, the developer is pre-selling their DLC, where they have to come up with content ideas that people will be interested in before the game even comes out. If you deviate from your set list of goods, fans are upset. If you release your promised DOC and it isn't how gamers were promised (or how they feel they were promised), fans are upset. And if you don't release the DLC at all (like SR3), fans get REALLY upset. It is a bad model. Terribad.

What I'm advocating is a discount on all future DLC. Plain and simple. 50% for anyone who either buys the game new or purchases the discount with a used copy (it would run for $10).

This would shift the focus less on the first DLC (making it not even neccessary to make it available on the first day) and instead keeps people engaged. If they have a discount where they can get some cheap DLC, they will stick around for it. If they feel they will lose out on their perceived dislcijnt if they don't at the very least follow the other DLC being released, then they will monitor the DLC releases. And, since the barrier for entry will be lower, they will see a piece of DLC for $10 (or the dreaded $15) and say "well, I get it half off, so why not give it a shot?" That's the value of my model - it earns more money in the long run for the developer, it keeps no expectations about future content that the then down and it makes the consumer feel appreciated and engaged instead of nickeled-and-dimed.


And, in regards to your last point, developers and publishers should be doing everything they can to put brick and mortar retailers out of business, in my opinion. They should make systems where used copies are insanely inferior to the new ones, where a player has a better value biyign the base game than spending half price buying it used or even buying it for a friend. If the Cereberus Network was deemed too desireable for gamers to buy used by retailers, then I am stunned. There are so many better and deeper ways to engage and give the perceived value to players without increasing the cost of game development in large ways. Kickstarter, if it has done anything, has shown that including small cost times for a hefty price tag for those who are the most aren't supporters is not complicated or hard to do. If the game industry were to use that mindset to reward players who buy new instead of used, it would greatly pad their revenue streams.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 décembre 2013 - 12:36 .


#354
schall_und_rauch

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My personal take:
I don’t care whether the additional content comes out on day one, a month or a year later. To me, the questions are always the same: Is the original game worth its price as far as content size and quality is concerned? Is the DLC worth its price? If yes, then I buy it, if not, then I don't. IMO, everybody should ask that question, rather than claim that they are entitled to additional content for the same money, just because "it got cut along the process" (which is standard in game development anyways) or "because it was finished on day 1".
So that means, yes, I am a cow to be milked, because I don't give a damn if I spend $10 or $50 more on video games if the entertainment value is good. So far, I have been well entertained.

However, there are two things which I find more problematic about DLC:
The first is the integration. Some aspects of the DLC don't really integrate well with the rest of the world. Be it that you go to a separate place on the map and follow an own sideline story just to get an additional companion or that the impact of the actions and events in the DLC on the rest of the world is fairly limited. Shale and Sebastian were so-so with that -- they felt a bit tacked on, and the questline for freeing Shale served no other purpose -- but still ok. Warden's Keep (and from what I heard also Return to Ostagar) was badly done. The content itself was fine, the integration into the world was not. DLC which is supposed to be played after the main campaign is also fine.

The second are issues of game balance which go into the direction of pay2win. A game has a certain (configurable) difficulty, difficulty curve and reward cycle. That is "normal" should allow me to get away with a lot, "hard" should make reasonable demands both on strategic and tactical level while "nightmare" should require excellent planing, optimal choices and top understanding of the game mechanics and execution on the tactical level. Rewards should be based on the "high risk, high reward" system.
DLCs often undercut this by having questlines which are fairly easy, but offer very high reward items. The feeling this leaves me is that I did not get the items because of my in game achievements, but because I payed an extra $10, which cheapens the reward. Even worse, it mucks up the difficulty curve, because I can suddenly waltz through the game on nightmare, even if I lack the commitment or understanding that is supposed to be required for that difficulty level. But I want to be challenged and I want the game to tell me "no, you are not good enough for this difficulty level, l2p!" and not "you didn't pay enough money to beat this difficulty level". Not using the items also feels stupid, because I want a reward -- which is adequate for the challenge.

So having DLC that takes away the enjoyment of the rest of the game by giving me overpowered items and making the rest of the game too easy is bad. Having something to show for in a DLC is nice, but it doesn't need to be the uber-item which exceeds everything else.

Personal conclusion: Bring out DLC whenever you want. Bring out much DLC. I will pay for it if it's good. Tell a good story with it and increase my immersion into Thedas. But don't mess up the difficulty curve by a pay2win-model.

#355
Fast Jimmy

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^

I'd disagree. This isn't Dark Souls. The games have a difficulty slider, one of which has a setting calls "Casual." Game difficulty and balancing is not a primary concern for the team, such that DLC somehow breaks the game - especially since they sell item pack DLC that is designed to do exactly that... break the game difficulty progression.

There are many reasons to dislike DLC. I just don't see how extra XP/gold/loot/what-have-you is one of them.

#356
schall_und_rauch

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'd disagree. This isn't Dark Souls. The games have a difficulty slider, one of which has a setting calls "Casual." Game difficulty and balancing is not a primary concern for the team, such that DLC somehow breaks the game - especially since they sell item pack DLC that is designed to do exactly that... break the game difficulty progression.

There are many reasons to dislike DLC. I just don't see how extra XP/gold/loot/what-have-you is one of them.


Yes, they have difficulty sliders, and they have extra item packs. One more reason to not mess with the difficulty rating in those DLCs that should be there because I want to experience the story.

Game difficulty is part of the primary advertisement of the DLC: You pay, therefore, your game will be easier. I wish it wasn't like that -- or restricted to item packs (which are fine for the people who want them, just not me).

#357
Fast Jimmy

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^

I suppose you could purposefully spend the stats gained by those levels sub-optimally? DA:I won't level scale, so if you dump those points into, say, Magic for a Warrior, then you won't be any more powerful. And you can always just not use the gold/gear earned, I suppose?

I don't know how you would handle it otherwise.

#358
Il Divo

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Sopa de Gato wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
And you don't need Javik at the start. Do you see where I'm going with this? Every consumer has some notion in their head of what should and should not be included in a package, whether reasonable or unreasonable. Bioware's not going to make Javik free because leaguer of one feels cheated. Consumers typically want as much as they can get with a product.


The problem with this is that players felt cheated, and rightfully so, given that the previous three games (DAO, DA2, ME2) had the DLC (yet mostly on disc) character "free" with the purchase of a new game. Bioware then hikes it up $10 for ME3 and thinks people aren't going to call them on the carpet for it.


Some players felt cheated. But again, good luck to anyone trying to establish a general rule regarding what is a fair or unfair practice in business. Yes, ME3's approach to Javik is greedy. But ultimately, the company is attempting to make a profit. You'll find people who feel cheated at the idea of playing an extra few dollars to watch a movie in 3D. Ultimately, everyone wants the best deal possible for themselves, which is fine. But nobody should be surprised that the company is doing the same. If the company pushes too far into territory customers dislike, they'll simply cease to exist.

#359
Fast Jimmy

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Some players felt cheated. But again, good luck to anyone trying to establish a general rule regarding what is a fair or unfair practice in business. Yes, ME3's approach to Javik is greedy. But ultimately, the company is attempting to make a profit. You'll find people who feel cheated at the idea of playing an extra few dollars to watch a movie in 3D. Ultimately, everyone wants the best deal possible for themselves, which is fine. But nobody should be surprised that the company is doing the same. If the company pushes too far into territory customers dislike, they'll simply cease to exist. 


Well, it always seems like 3D movies get brought up, but there is a material difference with Bioware DLC. Namely, that it is extra story content. Yes, 3D enhances the movie experience, but it doesn't involve more content or story, just different/better versions of that content. The movie industry has never released a major motion picture and, on the same day of release, also released an extended story version to the entire general public IF they pay extra (or bought their tickets in advance, etc.) on the very first say of release (again, we're not talking about DVD releases that come out almost nine to twelve months after it came out in theaters). You never are missing a piece of the story if you don't watch in 3D.

Also, to tackle the second part of your post, I'd argue that companies are often very bad at measuring non-tangible costs. D1DLC earns them money and some level of fan rage. Does that fan rage hurt their DLC sales? Their base game sales? Their FUTURE game sales? They can't measure it or predict it, so it's often easy to ignore it entirely. If DA:I really did bomb because of the negative perceptions of ME3 and it's From Ashes DLC, how do you track that? How do you prove it?

Because a company can blame low sales of a current or future game or DLC on a number of factors, then they can say "well, people are buying it, so they must want it... heck, they must LOVE if, obviously" (which is what Fernando Melo, head honcho of Bioware marketting said in a conference last summer - that sales of D1DLC show that fans aren't just complicit, but that they LOVE the model.)

So no, I'd say even after fan rage about From Ashes, even after the Worst Company in America award is bestowed twice with one of the highest rated comments being D1DLC, even after the fact that people are still talking about it nearly two years later, I'm still pretty sure it will return for DA:I.

That's one of the biggest drawbacks to focusing on modular revenue streams instead of just raising your base price - you can't gauge the true cost in terms of brand value very easily, so even when it kicks you in the teeth, its hard to convince the penny punchers to just chuck the idea out the window.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:39 .


#360
Il Divo

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because a higher base game price has to be earned.


Which would go against the the whole point of raising the price in the first place. The whole logic is for a company to recoup the cost due to games having a static price for quite a while. That does not work if you're expected to increase funding of the base game to make the larger price tag justified. Generally-speaking, anytime a business increases the price of their products, is that always accompanied by an increase in quality? I'd say likely not.

DLC, as a model, is way too expensive from a cost-benefit ratio. I buy a game with 40+ hours of content, ten companions, a large main story campaign, a large amount of side quests, all gear/equipment, skills and abilities for $60. Then I get one more companion, usually with no significantly different skills or abilities, and one or two more quests to recruit them and maybe complete a loyalty mission for an additional $10. I'm paying over 15% more above the base sticker price for a companion, which there are already ten others in the base game.


Then I hope you never find yourself purchasing movie tickets or paying for fast food. Maybe you're unique like that. But given the sheer number of people who do this on a daily basis, good luck making the cost-benefit analysis argument. People obviously are comfortable paying for dlc (and many other things) on some level, as they are still doing it.

The same goes with microtransactions. I can buy a base game for $)0, but then spend $5-$10 to level up faster or unlock gear early or what have you. The only value it adds is convenience in many cases.


See above. Economics is not predicated on what Fast Jimmy is willing to pay. Micro transactions are an extremely efficient form of revenue, in the style of collectible card games. As I said, every purchase made in an individual's day to day life is not done from the perspective of cost/benefit analysis.

Hell, you use a Skyrim example below. The existence of Skyrim, an extremely efficient cost/benefit analysis game, does not mean that gamers are not also purchasing Spec Ops: The Line for example, a six hour campaign.

The first games to have $70 price tags will demand a huge level of expectation. Even when it becomes more accepted after the first dozen or so titles, many player will never pay more than $60 a title, simply because that has been the baseline price for too long and has artificially set the expectation of being the "real" price of what a game should be. The market would segment itself naturally between the "elite" $70 titles and the "standard" $60 ones. If a game tries to sell itself as elite and isn't fantastic (let alone mediocre or bad), then gamers will criticize it much more brutally than a $60 title.


How is this an argument against the current model? My exact point regarding the $60 price point is that it allows gamers options in their purchases, while still allowing companies to in effect sell the game for $70-75 for consumers who do purchase the day 1 dlc.

Because the gamer's perception (there's the magic word!) will be different with a $70 game versus a $60 game with a very hooked $10 D1DLC, then the reality of the game will have to BE different, otherwise the game will be harshly judged for gameplay feature omissions, short content or other features. Basically, people will see a 15% higher price tag and ACTUALLY EXPECT 15% more or better of a game, instead of just taking the table scraps of a D1DLC.


Again, attempting to apply this straight forward idea of cost/benefit analysis to a form of entertainment, where "fun" is normally a nebulous idea doesn't work. If you're expecting companies to be shelling out more money to make this a reality, they're not seeing the benefit in comparison to the efficiency of the dlc model.

#361
Il Divo

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
Well, it always seems like 3D movies get brought up, but there is a material difference with Bioware DLC. Namely, that it is extra story content. Yes, 3D enhances the movie experience, but it doesn't involve more content or story, just different/better versions of that content. The movie industry has never released a major motion picture and, on the same day of release, also released an extended story version to the entire general public IF they pay extra (or bought their tickets in advance, etc.) on the very first say of release (again, we're not talking about DVD releases that come out almost nine to twelve months after it came out in theaters). You never are missing a piece of the story if you don't watch in 3D. 


This is like saying that a Halo dlc which features more shooting and action should be free, because gamers like shooting and action. Should 343 be releasing romance dlc instead to mitigate this? Javik is story and character content. He is not however central narrative necessary. Like Addiction pointed out, the alternative is characters like Zaeed and Kasumi who do nothing past their respective loyalty missions. I'd rather Bioware be designing content more epic in scope.


Also, to tackle the second part of your post, I'd argue that companies are often very bad at measuring non-tangible costs. D1DLC earns them money and some level of fan rage. Does that fan rage hurt their DLC sales? Their base game sales? Their FUTURE game sales? They can't measure it or predict it, so it's often easy to ignore it entirely. If DA:I really did bomb because of the negative perceptions of ME3 and it's From Ashes DLC, how do you track that? How do you prove it?


I suspect this is something which insiders at the company would be best able to answer.

#362
LinksOcarina

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

that's the irony of this situation, BioWare hooks people so damn well were still foolishly debating the merits of certain characters thrown into the mix of the game. Truth be told the Mass Effect 2 model is probably best; offer a service for free DLC (and one paid one, like Zaeed) for a smaller price over say, a season pass for $30.00.

There are several models that have proven to work, of course the ones used tend to be the ones that are a compromise between the retailers and the consumers. The Cerberus Network was not well-received by companies like Gamestop, for example, because it undercutted the used game market too heavily. 


But see, I'm not arguing a Season Pass model for $30. If you ask me, that is the most terribad DLC model the industry has created. Essentially, the developer is pre-selling their DLC, where they have to come up with content ideas that people will be interested in before the game even comes out. If you deviate from your set list of goods, fans are upset. If you release your promised DLC and it isn't how gamers were promised (or how they feel they were promised), fans are upset. And if you don't release the DLC at all (like SR3), fans get REALLY upset. It is a bad model. Terribad.

What I'm advocating is a discount on all future DLC. Plain and simple. 50% for anyone who either buys the game new or purchases the discount with a used copy (it would run for $10).

This would shift the focus less on the first DLC (making it not even neccessary to make it available on the first day) and instead keeps people engaged. If they have a discount where they can get some cheap DLC, they will stick around for it. If they feel they will lose out on their perceived dislcijnt if they don't at the very least follow the other DLC being released, then they will monitor the DLC releases. And, since the barrier for entry will be lower, they will see a piece of DLC for $10 (or the dreaded $15) and say "well, I get it half off, so why not give it a shot?" That's the value of my model - it earns more money in the long run for the developer, it keeps no expectations about future content that the then down and it makes the consumer feel appreciated and engaged instead of nickeled-and-dimed.


And, in regards to your last point, developers and publishers should be doing everything they can to put brick and mortar retailers out of business, in my opinion. They should make systems where used copies are insanely inferior to the new ones, where a player has a better value biyign the base game than spending half price buying it used or even buying it for a friend. If the Cereberus Network was deemed too desireable for gamers to buy used by retailers, then I am stunned. There are so many better and deeper ways to engage and give the perceived value to players without increasing the cost of game development in large ways. Kickstarter, if it has done anything, has shown that including small cost times for a hefty price tag for those who are the most aren't supporters is not complicated or hard to do. If the game industry were to use that mindset to reward players who buy new instead of used, it would greatly pad their revenue streams.


The season pass model is the discount on all DLC, because what usually dictates discounts is plans made by console manufacturers or through servers like Steam; the sales are done via the whims of the distribution model. Not to mention manufacturers like Microsoft and Sony want publishers to charge for DLC; for Microsoft its a requirement if you put in achievements into your DLC, because keep in mind even digital sales its divided so the manufacturer gets a cut of it too. I believe on Steam Valve gets around 10% per sale of a product or DLC, so even those cheap dollar games nets Steam .10 in profit. 

Right now the season pass, outside of what we saw in the cerberus network, is the only surefire way of getting free content, even if its miniscule. Discounting all DLC on the offset is a cool idea, but impossible because publishers don't have much control outside of initial pricing, which is slowly creeping up because the markets threshold for say $20 DLC is ok, depending on the content. 

And here is the problem with your charge on the brick and mortar stores; they are too important for publishers and developers because that is where most of the revenue comes in. The reason the Cerberus Network was popular was due to the fact that you got three DLC packs on day one for free, which at the time was unheard of. It also released two more packs for free for users, so it kept people engage with free content through this. I should also point out that EA did try this inferior method before for used and new games, it was called Project Ten Dollar. It failed because people felt cheated out of content and DLC from the game, but it was the inferior version because it was used. 

Its a symbiotic relationship that is not going away. retailers want companies to show support for their products, which is part of the reason DLC exists, while companies want to support their consumer base with a service model, which is why DLC, patching, and all of these digital issues exist. Everyone, from the developers to the publishers to manufacturers to retailers to consumers, is essentially working in conjunction with this model because the companies have proven it to be successful. Experimentation with the model is a good idea and I support it, but its impossible to determine long-standing discounts for DLC until way out in the shelf life of a game. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 24 décembre 2013 - 03:55 .


#363
Fast Jimmy

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EDIT: Ugh, I hate the BSN on my phone with the passion of a thousand suns. The jest  below blank quote should have been:

How is this an argument against the current model? My exact point regarding the $60 price point is that it allows gamers options in their purchases, while still allowing companies to in effect sell the game for $70-75 for consumers who do purchase the day 1 dlc. 


and the second should be:

I suspect this is something which insiders at the company would be best able to answer. 


I apologize for the confusion.  


Which would go against the the whole point of raising the price in the first place. The whole logic is for a company to recoup the cost due to games having a static price for quite a while. That does not work if you're expected to increase funding of the base game to make the larger price tag justified. Generally-speaking, anytime a business increases the price of their products, is that always accompanied by an increase in quality? I'd say likely not.


The video game industry had its chance to incrementally bring up its price and it has squandered it. Now, in order for them to cover spiraling costs, they are going to have chase ever-increasing volumes (not a feasible long-term strategy) or begin aligning their costs appropriately. A 5-10% increase in cost can be slipped in without providing more services. But developers need more than that to balance their expenses, they need a $10 increase, which is more than a 15% increase to what the consumer pays. That big of a jump is going to demand a higher quality of good.

Now... that being said? I think some current games have earned that price. DA:O would have been a steal at $70, as would Skyrim. Games that have a higher level of replayability are expensive to make, but also provide a great value to the consumer. Meanwhile, an enjoyable but linear experience like Assassin's Creed or Bioshock Infinite is, by and large, a one-shot kind of deal. The experience will be largely the same - and nothing is wrong with that, but it hardly seems equitable to price those two sets of games equally.

So the industry wouldn't need to completely revamp their idea of how to make a game, but they would have the option to price a game that took five years to develop (and has the quality and quantity of content to reflect it) correctly.

Then I hope you never find yourself purchasing movie tickets or paying for fast food. Maybe you're unique like that. But given the sheer number of people who do this on a daily basis, good luck making the cost-benefit analysis argument. People obviously are comfortable paying for dlc (and many other things) on some level, as they are still doing it.


Fast food is a terrible example... because the cost-benefit ratio is remarkably equal. You cannot go to the grocery store and buy ingredients to make, say, a chicken sandwich with all the dressing, lettuce tomato that is also fried for much less than what you can buy it at a fast food restaurant. All ingredients being the same, fast food is a FANTASTIC cost-benefit ratio, not to mention more expedient on an exponential level.

Movies have slowly increased their price over the years and offer roughly the same end product - 1.5 to 3 hours of cinematic presentation. One viewing at $10 a pop is worth it in some cases, not worth it in others. Buying a DVD that let's you have unlimited viewing as well as additional features (including cut content, what we are told D1DLC is) for $30 is, also, sometimes worth it, sometimes not. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Cost-benefit ratio does not equal "what the market will abide," for the record. Buying a new car for $30K when you can buy the same model and make car that is one year older for half of the price is terrible cost-benefit ratios... but people still buy brand new cars in droves.


Because what you call "consumer choice," I (and many others) call nickel and diming. The industry should get in the habit of evaluating what their game is worth and could objectively sell for, like every other industry, instead of looking at what they can sell for $60 and then chop up and sell separately at an inflated value price.

This is like saying that a Halo dlc which features more shooting and action should be free, because gamers like shooting and action. Should 343 be releasing romance dlc instead to mitigate this? Javik is story and character content. He is not however central narrative necessary. Like Addiction pointed out, the alternative is characters like Zaeed and Kasumi who do nothing past their respective loyalty missions. I'd rather Bioware be designing content more epic in scope.


And, again, it is all a matter of perspective. You didn't buy Jahvik because you saw advertisements that said "this character is deeply ingrained to the main story" or "see background detail into the story." You bought it for the same reason eveyrone else did - it was a Prothean squadmate. Pure and simple. Just like people bought Kasumi because "oooooh, space ninja thief!" You are acting like large volumes of these sales aren't pre-orders or people who don't do through, in-depth research into how the DLC content is integrated into the main game.

People don't complain because Jahvik was or was not a huge part of ME3... they complain because the Protheans are arguably one of the most intriguing and talked about aspects of the ME lore. So its value goes beyond how integrated he is to ME3's main plot... the idea of a Prothean squadmate is integrated into the entire series, given how they are placed on a pedestal. His existence as a paid companion is going to induce fan rage simply because it was something the entire trilogy had been hyping, if inadvertently.


I'd (HIGHLY) doubt it. That kind of data can really only be gathered by self-report collections and that is one of the least effective means to determine true statistical accuracy. People don't know why they really do things. And, on top of that, how do you ask people why they didn't buy your game? You'd have to access someone who either bought previous copies of your game, registered them somehow in a system you can track, follow up with them in a venue where they would actually respond AND assume they'd give you a real answer (which is limited, especially in an automated or multiple choice type manner that is often done). There are so many false disqualifiers in that sequence that its hard to believe anyone would find that data useful.

It's just as easy (if not easier, in all honestly), for a Bioware exec to say "we included horses in DA:I and research shows that games with horses in them in 2014 did not do well - THAT'S why DA:I DLC sold poorly" rather than saying "this is more of the From Ashes, D1DLC biting us in the butt." That doesn't make it any less TRUE, it just makes it objectively harder to prove. But since it can't be easily proven, it makes a great excuse to continue engaging in a practice that ticks many of your fanbase off since it makes money, when you are ignoring the very common sense reality that ticking off your consumer base is a bad idea, even if it is an idea that earns you some short term increases in revenue.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:00 .


#364
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
.... I buy a game with 40+ hours of content, ten companions, a large main story campaign, a large amount of side quests, all gear/equipment, skills and abilities for $60. Then I get one more companion, usually with no significantly different skills or abilities, and one or two more quests to recruit them and maybe complete a loyalty mission for an additional $10. I'm paying over 15% more above the base sticker price for a companion, which there are already ten others in the base game.  


I got into comic books recently. Was curious after seeing the Dark Knight again. Buying an issue online might run me from 0.99$-1.99$, or as far as 3.99$ for certain issues (if we're talking say main DC stuff). 

A game is such absurd value relative to all other forms of entertainment, that I think it skews perspective. Not that I disagree with you that $5-10 is *way* out of whack on a content-price scale relative to the base game. It's just great value relative to other uses of your money. 

#365
Fast Jimmy

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In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
.... I buy a game with 40+ hours of content, ten companions, a large main story campaign, a large amount of side quests, all gear/equipment, skills and abilities for $60. Then I get one more companion, usually with no significantly different skills or abilities, and one or two more quests to recruit them and maybe complete a loyalty mission for an additional $10. I'm paying over 15% more above the base sticker price for a companion, which there are already ten others in the base game.  


I got into comic books recently. Was curious after seeing the Dark Knight again. Buying an issue online might run me from 0.99$-1.99$, or as far as 3.99$ for certain issues (if we're talking say main DC stuff). 

A game is such absurd value relative to all other forms of entertainment, that I think it skews perspective. Not that I disagree with you that $5-10 is *way* out of whack on a content-price scale relative to the base game. It's just great value relative to other uses of your money. 


Well, that's true of anything. A "dollar value menu" at a restaurant is a steal for food, but given that it is usually consumed and done with in the span of 10 minutes makes it pale in comparison to entertainment values. Comparing like and non-like products is really hard to do with any level of equity. 

#366
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
Well, that's true of anything. A "dollar value menu" at a restaurant is a steal for food, but given that it is usually consumed and done with in the span of 10 minutes makes it pale in comparison to entertainment values. Comparing like and non-like products is really hard to do with any level of equity. 


But these are substitutes. Comparing fast food to cars would be nonsense, but money I spend on DLC is money I could also spend on movies (in theatres, from i-Tunes, etc.) or comic books or a book. It comes out of money broadly budgeted for "entertainment". 

This is a good ol' indifference curve. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:34 .


#367
Fast Jimmy

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In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Well, that's true of anything. A "dollar value menu" at a restaurant is a steal for food, but given that it is usually consumed and done with in the span of 10 minutes makes it pale in comparison to entertainment values. Comparing like and non-like products is really hard to do with any level of equity. 


But these are substitutes. Comparing fast food to cars would be nonsense, but money I spend on DLC is money I could also spend on movies (in theatres, from i-Tunes, etc.) or comic books or a book. It comes out of money broadly budgeted for "entertainment". 

This is a good ol' indifference curve. 


True. True. Then again, renting a hot air balloon for $500 an hour is also entertainment, but is a pretty terrible ratio when juxtapositioned to even DLC. Regardless, I consider the industry alternative, expansion packs for ~$30, and see a much higher value ratio than DLC, where three times the price of a DLC gets you roughly the same amount of content as half a game. I realize why developers have moved away from the expansion pack model by and large, but that doesn't mean I have to think the newer DLC model isn't fleecing consumers by contrast. 

#368
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because a higher base game price has to be earned.

What's our baseline?  Current prices, or prices 25 years ago?

I'd agree that the higher price should be earned, but I don't see why we'd start counting from current prices.  Current prices are too low.

A $70 base game has to earn that price tag.

Again, using Ultima IV as my benchmark, where I get one of the greatest games ever made for $160, $70 is a low price.  As long as the game is enjoyable, $70 is fine.

#369
Ninja Stan

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ARTHURIUSS wrote...

Not a single fan likes it and you get bad rep.

Incorrect. Part of the reason gamers pre-order is to get bonus content, such as Day 1 DLC. And part of the reason publishers want Day 1 DLC is to entice gamers to pre-order. BioWare does not have any better or worse of a "rep" than any other developer due to this common industry practice.

Sure you make a few quick quid but all that negative rep will hurt you in the long run.

Incorrect. BioWare has not been "hurt" by offering Day 1 DLC. Their reputation may be affected by the perceived quality of their games or stories, but not because they offer Day 1 DLC.

Also at this juncture you don't have a lot of goodwill out there. Lots of people are expecting you to fail and will come at you with anything they can. Avoid giving them more ammunition.

Incorrect. Judging by the activity and discussion in the DAI forum, many fans range from cautiously optimistic to ridiculously elated and hope DAI lives up to their expectations. Any negativity from cynical gamers and those disappointed by previous games will be there regardless of Day 1 DLC. Every new announcement from BioWare can provide more "ammunition," and has since BioWare had an online community. I think BioWare will be largely unconcerned that "lots of people are expecting [them] to fail," since they have a job to do and they will continue to do it the best way they know how.

Oh and I know you justify day 1 dlc by saying you begin work on it once the game's gone gold or w/e but maybe that extra manpower or time can be spent on polishing the existing game. 

Incorrect and misguided. These days, Day 1 DLC is planned for. Once you know you are going to have Day 1 DLC, you schedule it and assign resources to it. Different departments are done the bulk of the work on the base game long before "gold," so developers divide their time between work on DLC and fixing bugs, tweaks, and polish on the base game. A writer, for example, doesn't need to spend a whole lot of time writing on the base game near the end of production, and can spend the bulk of his time working on DLC or whatever else is coming down the pipe.

At some point, tweaking and polishing becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. Sure, you can spend an extra 8 hours a day to find and fix every little bug, or you can spend those 8 hours producing a bunch of new content. From a financial point of view, it's more cost-effective to spend that time developing new content.

Your view is likely based on ignorance of how game development works, what happens when a game gets to the certification stage of development, how projects are scheduled, and how developers transition from one project to the next. It can be difficult to imagine unless you're part of the process.

I'm only writing this because I'm a fan who greatly cares about the well being of Bioware and the games it makes. Make DA:I the best game it can be and reclaim your reputation amongst the disgruntled audience.

Audiences can get disguntled over anything. It is impossible for BioWare to please everyone all the time. Much of the grumbling you're seeing may be indicative of something very wrong at BioWare, or, more likely, it's the usual fan grumbling that something wasn't quite right, wasn't as good as expected, or wasn't to someone's taste. That's going to happen on any game.

Also, remember that BioWare enjoyed its reputation in part because it was an independent developer making such good games. The same quality games made by a subsidiary of EA is necessarily going to feel not as special, even though sales of BioWare games are generally higher now than when they were independent, just because of how gamers perceive large corporations.

Yours Sincerely
A very drunk & concerned fan

Don't drink and post. It's unhealthy and usually results in poor arguments.

#370
MDCT506

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Again, using Ultima IV as my benchmark, where I get one of the greatest games ever made for $160, $70 is a low price.  As long as the game is enjoyable, $70 is fine.


I think that, while Ultima IV is a good reference and an excellent game, it's more fair to compare prices with games from the 90's which are what I think most people think about when they see the cost of a video game and scowl.  PC games IIRC used to cost $40 US, which is inflated to a hair over $60 US today.  The reality is that there isn't any real difference in terms of cost, but there is perception of a difference in value because of the price difference.  It isn't wrong to think about it as either a good deal or too expensive, since value is a pretty subjective thing. 

#371
Ninja Stan

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Keep in mind, folks, that not everyone judges a game's value on a "dollars per hour enjoyed" basis.

#372
Seival

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ARTHURIUSS wrote...

Not a single fan likes it and you get bad rep. Sure you make a few quick quid but all that negative rep will hurt you in the long run. Also at this juncture you don't have a lot of goodwill out there. Lots of people are expecting you to fail and will come at you with anything they can. Avoid giving them more ammunition.

Oh and I know you justify day 1 dlc by saying you begin work on it once the game's gone gold or w/e but maybe that extra manpower or time can be spent on polishing the existing game. 

I'm only writing this because I'm a fan who greatly cares about the well being of Bioware and the games it makes. Make DA:I the best game it can be and reclaim your reputation amongst the disgruntled audience.

Yours Sincerely
A very drunk & concerned fan


Come on, don't you really want to encourage one of your favorite developers? Seriously, all these DLCs aren't that expensive to pay so much attention on the fact that one of them was released with the game, or few weeks later.

Considering the usual DLC prices, I have nothing against day 1 DLC. I only want it to be really good.

#373
Bleachrude

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MDCT506 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Again, using Ultima IV as my benchmark, where I get one of the greatest games ever made for $160, $70 is a low price.  As long as the game is enjoyable, $70 is fine.


I think that, while Ultima IV is a good reference and an excellent game, it's more fair to compare prices with games from the 90's which are what I think most people think about when they see the cost of a video game and scowl.  PC games IIRC used to cost $40 US, which is inflated to a hair over $60 US today.  The reality is that there isn't any real difference in terms of cost, but there is perception of a difference in value because of the price difference.  It isn't wrong to think about it as either a good deal or too expensive, since value is a pretty subjective thing. 



Eh...but many games nowadays are just plain bigger than before. For example, for all the problems of Battlefield 4 is currently having, as a GAME, it simply is much larger/bigger than anything you can point to in the past.

#374
Battlebloodmage

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Keep in mind, folks, that not everyone judges a game's value on a "dollars per hour enjoyed" basis.

The same thing could be said about sales though. You mentioned that sales are generally higher due to them being part of the EA instead of an independent company, but that could be because of the past reputation being built on past Bioware games though. On the contrary, Bioware gets a lot more negative reviews from the gamers just for being part of EA. People buy Bioware games because of Bioware, not because of EA, IMO. DAO performs a lot better than DA2 in term of sales and fan reception. As long as they could bring the same quality that they did with DAO to DAI then I don't think it matters which name the game falls under. At the end of the day, people just want to play a good game. I see Day One DLC as a potential sales loss for a lot of people, but they could easily remedy that by making it free for a limited time during launch week instead of making everyone pay all the same. It would give people an incentive to buy the game first day as well.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 24 décembre 2013 - 10:26 .


#375
AlanC9

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MDCT506 wrote...

I think that, while Ultima IV is a good reference and an excellent game, it's more fair to compare prices with games from the 90's which are what I think most people think about when they see the cost of a video game and scowl.  PC games IIRC used to cost $40 US, which is inflated to a hair over $60 US today.  The reality is that there isn't any real difference in terms of cost, but there is perception of a difference in value because of the price difference.  It isn't wrong to think about it as either a good deal or too expensive, since value is a pretty subjective thing. 


My impression is that game prices over time have tended to hover around a price point of about $70 in 2013 dollars; my gaming magazines back that up, though of course that's just a bunch of anecdotes. (Note that back in 1990 there was more variation in list prices for a new release than we see these days.) You can make a case that  the DLC model is helping to keep retail prices lower than they would otherwise be.

Edit: and there wasn't anything like the heavy discounting we see nowadays. I bought DA2 for $8; I would not have been able to get Ultima IV for $4. Even if I could have found a functional used copy, and trusted it, and been right to trust it (floppies weren't the best technology), used prices were higher than that... at least where I lived.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 décembre 2013 - 10:40 .